RE: Driven: Renault Twizy

[Kong]

I would have one of these if you didn't have to rent the battery, £45pm totally ruins the saving. Proof the technology isn't ready yet, it's not like you have to rent the engine in a petrol car.

[Numeric]

thinfourth2 said:

Numeric said:

Dodgy man maths - and please shoot me down cos I can't be right. All numbers are pure make believe but it's the ratios I'm messing around with.

You have a normal car that during production used 100 tonnes of C02 and during it's running life of say 10 years used another 100 over 100,000 miles

But you decide to get an EV as well to be environemntal (you can't have it as your only car cos you need to do distances as well) and that produces 100 tonnes CO2 during production and new batteries over the same life. You do half your mileage in this car and produce no CO2 (i'm being generous)

So using this dodgy maths total CO2 use is

Single car = 200 tonnes CO2 (100 tonnes production and 100 tonnes fuel)
Car and EV = 250 tonnes CO2 (100 tonnes car production, 100 tonnes EV and Batteries production and 50 tonnes fuel)

So only if the EV is your only car is it more environmental. I'm being thick surely??

(Are EVs much more efficient to build?)

Edited by Numeric on Wednesday 30th January 15:14

You have brought up CO2

Ergo you must belive in the whole man made up global warming

So you should sell your car, give up your job and live in a teepee

Oooo that is a horrible slur on my V8 loving character - it's just the CO2 thing is one of the big reasons given for going electric by the Brighton set. I actually have a friend who ran a Nissan Leaf and an M3 and an S1000RR and his use of the car I understood - it's quiet and easy and he needs something with space for the dogs - so why not a Leaf instead of the VW Golf he would have had instead? But if you add one to your fleet as an additional vehicle over and above what you would have had, the CO2 thing seems very tenuous so you really have to be doing it because you like EVs and quiet towns, not for environmental reasons based on polution.
I thought about my man maths when blatting along on my old BMW1150 by the way, watching grass wilt on my fumes!

[sisu]

The handy aspect with Batteries is that once you dig the minerals out of the ground, ship it to China, then to your manufacturer, then to you. It is in your country. So at the end of its life it gets recycled. Every car manufacturer in Europe has to include the recycling cost at the end of the life when you buy it. So unlike the AA batteries you probably chuck in the trash, these can be refurbished and reused.

It doesn't vanish into thin air

[Hellbound]

I remember reading something about a Swiss company working on a battery pack that gives a range of around 500 miles.

Once they've sorted the range out and once the infrastructure is in place in somewhere like London, I think most people will see it as a common sense option.

By infrastructure, I'm talking charging points everywhere offering subsidized electricity along with free tax and parking, restricted to 'city EV' vehicles only of course.

Then we'll see a complete change in the city.

[Gorbyrev]

Interesting article. Would rather punt the money on a 1st gen Honda Insight with a manual box. Not quite an EV but perhaps the more likely destination of the tech for everyday use until the battery capacity has increased and the cost of leasing has decreased.

[NAS]

I've sat in one last year in Vienna. I love the idea of it, and would gladly have it as a day-to-day city car.

My key issue of it vs. a bigger scooter (which can easily cost the same) is that it can't filter through traffic, thereby reducing its usefulness in a city massively.

[myhandle]

I drove a Peugeot Ion the other day and expected it to be dreadful and slow - it's quite fun to drive and will quickly wind up to 75mph. It makes a sort of whirring noise and the motor gives the impression of engine braking like a petrol car. I was Pleasantly surprised. Expensive new, but used it has an appeal.

[SystemParanoia]

Tow half a maxi scooter as a pusher trailer and range extender combo.

It. will then hit 70mph easily, can do longer ranges when required, and still do the ev thing at its destination

[Carnnoisseur]

Butter Face said:

Here's the one I drive after a bit of particularly filthy back road driving

That's what I love about PH, there is always an owner of the most random, obsscure and exotica able to share an actual ownership opinion based on listed threads. I've sat in a few Twizy's but never had the pleasure of driving one. However, I agree with the majority, as a 4th or 5th car, ideal. As your only means of transportation, personally speaking, it wouldnt/couldnt be an option.

My main issue with EV's is that I believe its all a ploy to entice people to purchase. Once target numbers have been achieved, then all of the current incentives (zero congestion charge, free parking, free re-charging, zero road tax) will enter into an initial consultation, swiftly followed by it all being bought to a halt. It started with the LPG vehicles and now the low emission diesels and Hybrids are at risk......definitely a pattern.

[thinfourth2]

Numeric said:

thinfourth2 said:

You have brought up CO2

Ergo you must belive in the whole man made up global warming

So you should sell your car, give up your job and live in a teepee

Oooo that is a horrible slur on my V8 loving character - it's just the CO2 thing is one of the big reasons given for going electric by the Brighton set. I actually have a friend who ran a Nissan Leaf and an M3 and an S1000RR and his use of the car I understood - it's quiet and easy and he needs something with space for the dogs - so why not a Leaf instead of the VW Golf he would have had instead? But if you add one to your fleet as an additional vehicle over and above what you would have had, the CO2 thing seems very tenuous so you really have to be doing it because you like EVs and quiet towns, not for environmental reasons based on polution.
I thought about my man maths when blatting along on my old BMW1150 by the way, watching grass wilt on my fumes!

You really must of been educated under labour

Pollution is not CO2

Pollution is nox, sox, soot and noise etc

All of which an EV absolutely and resolutely kicks a fossil fuelled cars butt on as nothing comes out of the exhaust.

Ignore the brighton set as they will be wanting EVs banned in about ten years time as they are morons


EVs will sell when folk realise they make a perfect 2nd car for many families as you can recharge at home, they are quiet and shouldn't suffer for all the problems that the modern diesel seems to suffer from when used for 15 miles a day.

[jerrytlr]

Anybody got any views on the Renault ZOE? Range of 150km seems far more useful than the Twizzy, seating for four, etc. With the 7,000 Euro incentive available in France it is around 13K Euros for a very well equipped car - seems like good value to me. I am seriously considering one.

Battery rental is €80 a month though, so no real fuel cost savings overall when compared to an economical diesel Clio alternative.

I'll say this for Renault though, they are actually making and selling these cars and the specs are getting good. No excuse for other manufacturers just to have concepts any more....

Cheers

Jerry

[alangla]

I saw this ad in the paper a couple of days ago - http://www.arnoldclark.com/used-cars/peugeot/ion/e... - surprised at these being reduced to half price, possibly putting them into the "tempting" category if you're looking for a city hack as a second car?

[thinfourth2]

alangla said:

I saw this ad in the paper a couple of days ago - http://www.arnoldclark.com/used-cars/peugeot/ion/e... - surprised at these being reduced to half price, possibly putting them into the "tempting" category if you're looking for a city hack as a second car?

Oh thats tempting

very tempting

[dc2rr07]

sad61t said:

dc2rr07 said:

oh and not moving as the batteries have all gone flat in the traffic jam

Eh? Why would the batteries go flat in a traffic jam? The electric car has a stop/start mechanism; by its very nature it will only take energy from the batteries when required, i.e. when moving. The energy for the lights or heated windscreen is minimal in comparison with that needed for motion. OK, there's leakage current over several weeks but if the jam is that permanent, I'll have long since vacated the vehicle and walked home.

I was been ironic, on the subject of power consumption the heater & lights will remain on I assume when stationery as it was minus 11°C last week going to work I for one would require heating ! which I imagine would be a bit of a drain on the batteries.

Hybrids or Hydrogen cells IMHO are the future not all electric.

[howertings]

Whatever happened to the Vauxhall/Opel twin seater concept - seemed like a good idea to me at the time?
IIRC there was even talk about putting in a small bike engine instead of an electric engine for initial production - I reckon that a small petrol engined model would be relatively cheap to buy aswell as being economical and nippy due to the low drag and weight.

Or did this concept die by by the usual legislative stoning?

[DonkeyApple]

dc2rr07 said:

I was been ironic, on the subject of power consumption the heater & lights will remain on I assume when stationery as it was minus 11°C last week going to work I for one would require heating ! which I imagine would be a bit of a drain on the batteries.

Hybrids or Hydrogen cells IMHO are the future not all electric.

Or wearing a jumper.

[thinfourth2]

dc2rr07 said:

I was been ironic, on the subject of power consumption the heater & lights will remain on I assume when stationery as it was minus 11°C last week going to work I for one would require heating ! which I imagine would be a bit of a drain on the batteries.

Hybrids or Hydrogen cells IMHO are the future not all electric.

Or an electric car with a little diesel or ethanol heater as burning stuff to produce heat is quite efficient.

The only reason that cars with internal combustion engines have such excellent heaters is many down to the engine under the bonnet pissing heat away. For every 3 litres of fuel you put in your car only about 1 of those litres makes you move the rest is lost as heat.

[MarshPhantom]

I like these, although I'm sure I read somewhere you have to lease the batteries for £60 a month.

[DonkeyApple]

MarshPhantom said:

I like these, although I'm sure I read somewhere you have to lease the batteries for £60 a month.

It's 45 upwards. Bit it solves the problem of buying the batteries at the outset and the risk of ownership. It's not exactly a large sum of money and is somewhat irrelevant in contrast to the initial outlay of 7k+.

[cjm]

There are already predictions of a UK energy short fall by 2015/16 unless we get building new power stations. How many people charging electric cars every night would it take to use up our current spare capacity?! Not sure I fancy blackouts so I can drive an electric car 50 miles a day!