RE: PH 2013: Biggest disappointments
Discussion
csmith319 said:
Some decent examples of where manuals are still showing their importance:
- BMW 1M Coupe - manual only, sold out overnight and probably the strongest residuals of any BMW in recent history (that includes the CSL which plummeted in value when first sold and is still 50% down on its list price, the 1M is within 12% generally)
- Aston Vanquish - retro fitting a manual has been a huge success and has added value to the cars
- BMW M5 - in the States both the E60 and current model have had to have manual options fitted due to customer demand
- BMW M3 / M4 - they didn't need to you could argue, but they have offered both options
- Honda Civic Type R - to be a manual, even though its chasing a 'ring record
I think it comes down to the perceived purpose of the car in question - cars that stand for all out supreme performance and laptimes (i.e. Supercars, Ferrari's, Nissan GTR etc) a dual clutch makes sense. Cars made for driver enjoyment and involvement, a transmission option makes sense - I put the GT3 in this category - it's always been the paired back, driver focused model, that it is analogue in a sea of digital one of its USPs.
Again - choice for customers is important, not all options make business sense, but some can.
I don't believe the early depreciation the CSL suffered from had much to do with its gearbox. More to do with many in the media stating (incorrectly IMO) that it was too expensive and not much different to a standard M3, and also with many of the original, possibly speculative, owners finding it a much more raw car than they first imagined e.g seats, noise. Demand is strong for them now too with prices rising- BMW 1M Coupe - manual only, sold out overnight and probably the strongest residuals of any BMW in recent history (that includes the CSL which plummeted in value when first sold and is still 50% down on its list price, the 1M is within 12% generally)
- Aston Vanquish - retro fitting a manual has been a huge success and has added value to the cars
- BMW M5 - in the States both the E60 and current model have had to have manual options fitted due to customer demand
- BMW M3 / M4 - they didn't need to you could argue, but they have offered both options
- Honda Civic Type R - to be a manual, even though its chasing a 'ring record
I think it comes down to the perceived purpose of the car in question - cars that stand for all out supreme performance and laptimes (i.e. Supercars, Ferrari's, Nissan GTR etc) a dual clutch makes sense. Cars made for driver enjoyment and involvement, a transmission option makes sense - I put the GT3 in this category - it's always been the paired back, driver focused model, that it is analogue in a sea of digital one of its USPs.
Again - choice for customers is important, not all options make business sense, but some can.
DP33 said:
We'll miss the manual when its gone and it will be sooner than we all imagine at the performance end of the market if we continue down the route of DCT / PDK / DSG always winning out when it comes to the speccing of Press cars and dealer demos.
The stupid thing is we all know that manual versions of previous gen cars are already worth more (think E46 M3 manual vrs SMG) on the used car market because they are more reliable, cheaper to fix and just plain better and more rewarding.
At the lower end of the market I just hope that Renault see's sense and re-engineers the Clio as a manual variant.
My advice? Find a manual E92M before they all end up in the hands of wrong 'uns!
Very subjective and not an opinion I share in this instance. I'm no manual gearbox hater btwThe stupid thing is we all know that manual versions of previous gen cars are already worth more (think E46 M3 manual vrs SMG) on the used car market because they are more reliable, cheaper to fix and just plain better and more rewarding.
At the lower end of the market I just hope that Renault see's sense and re-engineers the Clio as a manual variant.
My advice? Find a manual E92M before they all end up in the hands of wrong 'uns!
Edited by Leins on Tuesday 31st December 19:33
csmith319 said:
What I find funny about the debate is that those who like manuals are just saying 'give me the choice' - they're not saying don't offer an auto. Whereas the auto fans preach the whole 'you're a Luddite' etc and try and compare it to features like ABS (which simply provide more safety but don't generally effect how you drive) or the synchromesh (which allows us to enjoy the manual more and make it easier to use, rather than take away control or enjoyment).
THIS.Sadly, there are two factors at play:-
1) A manual gearbox suffers vs ANY sort of automated 'box in the EU emissions testing regime - anything without a clutch pedal can be left in 'auto mode', where it shuffles up the gears as quickly as possible to minimise emissions, whereas the manual 'box has to be shifted at a set % of max rpm, which hurts emissions and doubly-so for high-revving engines.
2) Look at those who buy sports cars when new. They like the image of a sports car. They like the pace of a sports car. They want a car that'll make them look good. A manual box doesn't do that. I recently saw the stats for UK orders of a manual box on the M3 over the last 4 years - % of manuals has fallen off a cliff...
So the manufacturers have won. They've got their engineers to perfect DCT and super-autos. They've got their marketing teams to tell everyone they're better/faster/make your dick bigger. And when the punters buy them their corporate average fuel economy rating improves, reducing the risk of them gettign fined.
[quote]
So the manufacturers have won. They've got their engineers to perfect DCT and super-autos. They've got their marketing teams to tell everyone they're better/faster/make your dick bigger. And when the punters buy them their corporate average fuel economy rating improves, reducing the risk of them gettign fined.
[/quote]
They can charge more, too.
So the manufacturers have won. They've got their engineers to perfect DCT and super-autos. They've got their marketing teams to tell everyone they're better/faster/make your dick bigger. And when the punters buy them their corporate average fuel economy rating improves, reducing the risk of them gettign fined.
[/quote]
They can charge more, too.
Jawaman said:
Biggest disappointment for me? Formula 1.
I recorded all the races and ended up watching a handful. I fell asleep during one, and didn't watch another race.
I really really hope the rule changes will make for an unpredictable season next year!
+1I recorded all the races and ended up watching a handful. I fell asleep during one, and didn't watch another race.
I really really hope the rule changes will make for an unpredictable season next year!
I see fanatical F1 fans in the same vein as early X Factor auditionees - deluded. Apart from the superb engineering that goes on with the cars, the whole circus is an overblown, expensive bore fest.
Cobnapint said:
+1
I see fanatical F1 fans in the same vein as early X Factor auditionees - deluded. Apart from the superb engineering that goes on with the cars, the whole circus is an overblown, expensive bore fest.
It really really frustrates me - how can something so exciting on paper be so boring?I see fanatical F1 fans in the same vein as early X Factor auditionees - deluded. Apart from the superb engineering that goes on with the cars, the whole circus is an overblown, expensive bore fest.
Motormatt said:
Baryonyx said:
LSsupercar said:
Someone needs to coin a new term for the manual driver's massive superiority complex.
'Classically skilled drivers' perhaps? I'm sure there must be a market for some kind of bumper sticker for those who wish to announce their mastery of the manual box to other motorists, come on PH, let's see some in the shop!
Biggest disappointments for me:
Alfa 4C.
Too expensive for something powered by a hairdryer. I always wanted Alfa to make something small and light, like an Elise, but with their gorgeous sounding V6. Instead they've pandered to economy. People who buy sports cars want visual and aural sexiness over economy.
Jaguar F-Type.
When I first saw the pics I thought this was going to be a Boxster/Z4/SLK competitor and priced accordingly. Instead it's just an elitistly priced replacement for the XK8 which will be fragile money pit by thew time it's depreciated enough for me to be able to afford one.
Anything with a paddle shift that doesn't rotate with the steering wheel.
McLaren have done it right. So have BMW. Sort yourselves out Ferrari and Lamborghini - I've driven both so I can testify that the paddle shift not rotating with the steering wheel is a pain in the arse.
Alfa 4C.
Too expensive for something powered by a hairdryer. I always wanted Alfa to make something small and light, like an Elise, but with their gorgeous sounding V6. Instead they've pandered to economy. People who buy sports cars want visual and aural sexiness over economy.
Jaguar F-Type.
When I first saw the pics I thought this was going to be a Boxster/Z4/SLK competitor and priced accordingly. Instead it's just an elitistly priced replacement for the XK8 which will be fragile money pit by thew time it's depreciated enough for me to be able to afford one.
Anything with a paddle shift that doesn't rotate with the steering wheel.
McLaren have done it right. So have BMW. Sort yourselves out Ferrari and Lamborghini - I've driven both so I can testify that the paddle shift not rotating with the steering wheel is a pain in the arse.
I'm currently driving Merc C180 Coupe with a manual box. It is my second one and on buying it I test drove the C63, which is a lovely car, but I just prefer a manual and, frankly, I didn't want to pay twice as much for a duller car. I did try to find a secondhand one, but had to order new as I couldn't find one. I had a C180 auto when mine was serviced and I am so glad I got the manual.
Leins said:
Very subjective and not an opinion I share in this instance. I'm no manual gearbox hater btw
Agree, the manual in the M3 is nothing special and actually annoying a lot of the time. Terrible when cold, not paricuarly smooth when warm and too long a throw in standard guise. I've replaced mine with a shorter stick and it's an improvement but still not wonderful.Edited by Leins on Tuesday 31st December 19:33
If I get an E92 M3 this year it will be DCT; it suits the engine and nature of the car far better than the manual IMO, which holds the car back. I like driving fast so stirring a stick is not that big a deal for me anymore.
Jawaman said:
Cobnapint said:
+1
I see fanatical F1 fans in the same vein as early X Factor auditionees - deluded. Apart from the superb engineering that goes on with the cars, the whole circus is an overblown, expensive bore fest.
It really really frustrates me - how can something so exciting on paper be so boring?I see fanatical F1 fans in the same vein as early X Factor auditionees - deluded. Apart from the superb engineering that goes on with the cars, the whole circus is an overblown, expensive bore fest.
I shall be spending next season watching a lot more GT racing.
samoht said:
If you're going to list GT6 as one of your 'biggest disappointments', how about actually posting a review of the game? All I've seen is a 'liveblog' which had lots of snippets, few of which were actually about playing the game - not a considered review explaining why it is disappointing. What were you hoping for, beyond some Porsches which are already locked up by EA's licencing deal?
I'd argue that you guys, with your broad experience of driving different real-life cars and tracks and describing the sensations, are among the best-placed to review driving games like GT and Forza.
I agree with the above, if GT6 had been developed for the PS4 we'd have been waiting even longer and people would still be complaining. Engine noises to one side it's still the best drivers game and frankly I'm happy that by the time GT7 cones out for the PS4 they'll have dropped to a reasonable price.I'd argue that you guys, with your broad experience of driving different real-life cars and tracks and describing the sensations, are among the best-placed to review driving games like GT and Forza.
It's not te improvement we would have liked because its still running on te PS3 platform and for that I think they've done a great job. For me playing online is where the fun is so I'll be looking forward to playing it soon.
Europa1 said:
Jawaman said:
Cobnapint said:
+1
I see fanatical F1 fans in the same vein as early X Factor auditionees - deluded. Apart from the superb engineering that goes on with the cars, the whole circus is an overblown, expensive bore fest.
It really really frustrates me - how can something so exciting on paper be so boring?I see fanatical F1 fans in the same vein as early X Factor auditionees - deluded. Apart from the superb engineering that goes on with the cars, the whole circus is an overblown, expensive bore fest.
I shall be spending next season watching a lot more GT racing.
The complete and final tarting-over of F1 was the most disappointing thing of the year. I am quite surprised that Bernie is not requiring that drivers wear clown costumes and that the winner must spray the Moet out of the flower on the front.....come to think of it, clown-shoes in the cockpit might bring back driver mistakes...but no doubt F1's clever bods will redesign the pedals to accommodate clown-shoes....
double-points for the last race is possibly the most inane abuse of sporting principles since the NHL's loser-point (where teams, you guessed it, get a point for losing). even NASCAR has never stooped so low in its pursuit of ratings.
Matt said:
Gran Turismo 6 (Matt)
My biggest let-down of 2013? Gran Turismo 6, easily. I still remember the joy of Christmas Day in 2000 when my parents had bought me a PS2 and GT2. Most of my teenage years were happily spent playing GT3 and GT4 then my degree suffered thanks to GT5 until I realised it was a bit boring.
Despite some excellent new track additions and further improved physics, GT6 just hasn't moved GT on as far as it needed to in my opinion. And a lunar buggy on the moon? Really? I'd rather we had some Porsches in the game to be honest.
First off GT2 was a PS1 title.My biggest let-down of 2013? Gran Turismo 6, easily. I still remember the joy of Christmas Day in 2000 when my parents had bought me a PS2 and GT2. Most of my teenage years were happily spent playing GT3 and GT4 then my degree suffered thanks to GT5 until I realised it was a bit boring.
Despite some excellent new track additions and further improved physics, GT6 just hasn't moved GT on as far as it needed to in my opinion. And a lunar buggy on the moon? Really? I'd rather we had some Porsches in the game to be honest.
Now onto the thing that really pished me off - how far can you move on with a driving game? You know, I do lots of track days and now I think to myself, hmm, I can't be bothered visiting tracks I haven't been to, that'd be boring. I need to spice it up by.....Please.
I think that GT6 is great. Ok so the sounds are a bit crap but the physics are very good indeed - plenty good enough for me to keep sharp between the seasons and whilst I'm building my new car.
If anyone is commenting on the game without having a rig, you can forget it.
As for the GT3 - who cares. As a few people have said Porsche have ran the numbers and the fact is that the PDK is a couple of seconds faster round the ring. The 99.5% of the people who buy this car will only care about the that time and whether or not the car will appreciate in value. And lets be honest 99.99% of the people on here (myself included) are not in a position to buy it anyway so shareholders care little about their whining
canucklehead said:
I am quite surprised that Bernie is not requiring that drivers wear clown costumes and that the winner must spray the Moet out of the flower on the front.....come to think of it, clown-shoes in the cockpit might bring back driver mistakes...but no doubt F1's clever bods will redesign the pedals to accommodate clown-shoes....
At least the cars will generate more clown force. 
LSsupercar said:
Someone needs to coin a new term for the manual driver's massive superiority complex.
It seems to me the manual is the modern equivalent of the chest wig and Carlos Fandango Super Wide wheels. Proof the driver is "a real man"....Obviously it makes 99% of actual race drivers "video gamers" or whatever the current term of paddle shift abuse is.... again as I say I enjoy the feel of a manual, but if I was racing (or manufacturing) it wouldn't really even be a tough decision....
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