BMW, Mercedes or Audi?

[daemon]

kambites said:

daemon said:

Probably very little down to personal choice. However my point was that if i want a medium saloon car built by Mercedes Benz then i would buy a C Class. If i want a medium saloon car built by BMW, i buy a 3 series. If i want a medium saloon car built by VAG, then you can get a just-as-good but better spec'd Passat for £4K less.

I dont see a standard A4 offering anything over a standard passat

Why on earth would you pick the manufacturer first then pick the car? I don't really see the relevance of the fact that the A4 and the Passat are built by the same company.

• sigh*.

I'm using it as an extrapolated example of how if you want a BMW, you buy a BMW, if you want a Merc you buy a Merc, if you want a VAG car, you may as well go for the Passat, as a standard audi 2.0 TDI SE offers no real advantage over a passat - you would know an Audi has been built by VAG - it has most of the same trim, finishings, engines, drivetrains, chassis as they use in their other cars, so it hardly feels "special" enough to warrant its premium badge.

[Pablo68]

joshc said:

OK - I must be missing something though...Are you saying you, yourself, an owner of two BMWs, cannot tell me why you bought those instead of a similar price/spec from a non-German manufacturer? I'm not saying your decision was wrong - I just want to hear the reason from yourself, a BMW owner!

See my edit to reply to your edit above

[kambites]

This is what I don't understand how could anyone possibly "want a BMW" or "want a car made by VAG"? Picking a manufacturer first is utterly nonsensical to me. I simply don't see the relevance of the Audi and the VW being made by the same company.

Edited by kambites on Sunday 5th January 16:11

[aka_kerrly]

Thankyou4calling said:

Sump said:

Who on earth 'aspires' to owning any of them?

Quite literally hundreds of thousands of people.

You mean millions.

The attempts of so many people to try and devalue the BMW, Audi, Mercedes brands is ridiculous.

Personally I am a BMW/Audi fan as they have produced more models that I find desirable, I do appreciate Mercedes cars but the lack of decent manual gearboxes puts me off.

[Pablo68]

fatboy b said:

I wouldn't touch a 5-series on looks alone. I've been in a 335d, shockingly bad ride. I've owned an e46 M3, good but still hard. I've owned an A5, good, but front-end heavy. I've driven various guises of A4, all ok but average.

I was stuck with what to get. I ventured over to a Jaguar showroom to try an XF. My god I was astounded at how good it was. So good, in fact I bought a new one. 25k miles later, and it still puts a smile on my face whenever I drive it. Two modes of suspension setting give it a very good all-round ability without 3-series bone-shaking.

You do realise an F30 3 series has 4 modes of suspension etc? Eco Pro, Comfort, Sport and Sport +

[daemon]

page3 said:

daemon said:

For me...

People who tend to drive BMWs tend to not like Audis, and vice versa.

Mercedes have always had a relatively staid image and the average age of Mercedes drivers is quite old. Mercedes are actively trying to address that, with cars that are more appealing to younger people. Dynamically though the likes of the new A Class isnt that great, though it looks the part.

Of the three, Audi has, and always will have the weakest image because there is so much platform and component sharing between them and VW, Skoda and SEAT.

I personally dont "get" Audis. Given most A4s are common or garden 2.0 TDI's and the bulk of those are SEs, i dont understand what the advantage is over a VW Passat. Likewise an A3 in "standard" trim offers little advantage over a Golf.

The A3 looks nicer, has a far better interior and the base models can be cheaper than the Golf - mine was.

"looking nicer" is a very subjective thing. The mk7 golf is built on the new MQB platform than the A3. I would be surprised if an A3 model for model being cheaper than a golf is anything other than a rarity.

[daemon]

kambites said:

When we were last buying a (second-hand) car for the wife, we looked at all of the above brands (in the form of the 3-series, C-class, A3 and A4) and ended up with a Skoda Octavia because the wife genuinely thought it was a better car than any of the Germans. I had a mild preference for a 330i because I've always preferred RWD cars, but in all other respect I largely agreed - as a general means of family transport, the Octavia was simply a better car than the Germans.

You're really trying to tell us that a Skoda Octavia is a better car than a 330i BMW??

[kambites]

daemon said:

kambites said:

When we were last buying a (second-hand) car for the wife, we looked at all of the above brands (in the form of the 3-series, C-class, A3 and A4) and ended up with a Skoda Octavia because the wife genuinely thought it was a better car than any of the Germans. I had a mild preference for a 330i because I've always preferred RWD cars, but in all other respect I largely agreed - as a general means of family transport, the Octavia was simply a better car than the Germans.

You're really trying to tell us that a Skoda Octavia is a better car than a 330i BMW??

A better family car, yes.

[RobM77]

Pablo68 said:

joshc said:

Thanks, but I'm still waiting for someone to explain why I would choose a BMW, Mercedes or Audi over a Ford, Skoda, Hyundai, Kia, Honda, etc...I'm not so sure I agree about 'driving dynamics' being better on German cars (or specifically BMW) - because Ford's Fiesta ST for example is very good at handling etc...maybe I'm missing something though?

From what I can tell, build quality on a lot of cheaper brands are now at the same level as the German cars - especially since the German cars lost their touch of having sumptuous leather and bespoke real wood trim etc - the majority of German cars I've looked at have cloth seats similar to what you get in any other car, and similar trim that you can get in any other car.

Well go drive a mid/top spec ford focus or skoda octavia or kia/Hyundai whatever then drive a BMW/Audi/Merc (And I don't mean a 1.8 diesel pov spec) and you will feel the difference. If you can't you may as well buy yourself the Ford/Skoda/Kia/Other unremarkable shopping trolley on wheels

Purely in terms of driving:

The difference between a BMW and a Ford Mondeo will be enormous, I don't think there's much contention there - one is FE/RWD and the other FE/FWD with significantly cheaper components (look at their respective profits margins for a hint of that).

Audi though, that's a bit different as they have the same basic mechanical layout as a Skoda, Ford etc, so the basics of how they handle will be very similar. However, in my experience Audis always seem better damped with less roll and more linear handling than equivalent but cheaper FWD stuff.

One thing you do tend to get with Audi, Mercs etc is linear and progressive controls, which aren't always to everyone's taste. Something like a Skoda Octavia for instance will usually be far more grabby and pointy in the steering, brakes and throttle at small openings/angles, but then fall apart if you really push it. This leads many people to say that such cars are more 'sporty' - a bit like grabby brakes for instance - the commonest complaint from new Porsche or Lotus owners is that the brakes are 'crap' - they're not of course it's just that at 20% pedal force they give 20% and so on. Personally, this modern fashion for grabbiness it's not to my taste (80s FWD saloons didn't do it, it's not a FWD thing, just the way they tune modern cars), but I can understand why people who perhaps never really push a car prefer a Mazda 6 to an Audi A4 for example.

Another major factor is CofG. Even if you ignore the RWD/FWD argument, just look at an E90 3 series next to a contempary Mondeo - the roofline is about a foot higher on the Ford! I've often seen people at my local kayaking spot struggling to get their kayak on the roof of a Mondeo, whereas my roof's at chest height - easy. I'm not talking about ease of loading the roof, that's just a way of illustrating it - I'm talking about the handling of the car. The ride height and suspension travel is much bigger on the Ford and the whole thing is just off to a bad start dynamically even if you do ignore the cheap dampers and cheaper FWD layout.

I do firmly believe though that better dampers and a new suspension setup would see a Mondeo drive better than a standard Audi A4, no question of it. Ford don't care though, which is why Jackie Stewart parted company with them after many years as an advisor.

If we're talking about an ownership proposition and ignoring the drive, things are much closer. I'd still favour a BMW though as they're just so much quieter at a 70mph cruise, and the lack of wallowy suspension helps prevent car sickness. My parents aren't in the slightest bit interested in handling, but they test drove a BMW 3 series next to its competitors and the difference in comfort and quietness was very obvious.

Edited by RobM77 on Sunday 5th January 16:17

[daemon]

kambites said:

This is what I don't understand how could anyone possibly "want a BMW" or "want a car made by VAG"? Picking a manufacturer first is utterly nonsensical to me. I simply don't see the relevance of the Audi and the VW being made by the same company.

Edited by kambites on Sunday 5th January 16:11

I didnt say someone "wanted a car by a specific manufacturer" - i was saying that if you so inclined to buy a car by BMW you could buy a 3 series. However if you were so inclined to buy a VAG car, why pay a premium for an Audi, when the Passat is arguably as good, but significantly cheaper. You get all the perceived advantages of buying a German saloon car, but less cost?

[Riknos]

I used to aspire to owning a Honda, considering how they're all over the top 3 positions on every reliability index I could find on the web, I thought that was a good place to look. That, plus a fun sports car = Honda S2000, the exact car I aspired to own.

[kambites]

daemon said:

I was saying that if you so inclined to buy

Yes, and this is what I, personally, don't understand. I never have an inclination to buy a car from a particular manufacturer.

[daemon]

kambites said:

daemon said:

kambites said:

When we were last buying a (second-hand) car for the wife, we looked at all of the above brands (in the form of the 3-series, C-class, A3 and A4) and ended up with a Skoda Octavia because the wife genuinely thought it was a better car than any of the Germans. I had a mild preference for a 330i because I've always preferred RWD cars, but in all other respect I largely agreed - as a general means of family transport, the Octavia was simply a better car than the Germans.

You're really trying to tell us that a Skoda Octavia is a better car than a 330i BMW??

A better family car, yes.

But thats not what a 330i is. Its not the sector its in. It would be like saying a Focus is a better car than a Jaguar XJ because it has a hatchback and families need a hatchback.

You've expressed a subjective view based on your wifes particular needs, not an objective view of comparing a 330i to a Skoda.

[kambites]

daemon said:

But thats not what a 330i is. Its not the sector its in. It would be like saying a Focus is a better car than a Jaguar XJ because it has a hatchback and families need a hatchback.

You've expressed a subjective view based on your wifes particular needs, not an objective view of comparing a 330i to a Skoda.

So ignoring the dynamic argument, what does the BMW do better?

[daemon]

kambites said:

daemon said:

I was saying that if you so inclined to buy

Yes, and this is what I, personally, don't understand. I never have an inclination to buy a car from a particular manufacturer.

Again, thats your subjective view.

People will say "i like BMWs" or "I do like a nice Merc". Hell, thats what this thread is about.

[kambites]

daemon said:

Again, thats your subjective view.

People will say "i like BMWs" or "I do like a nice Merc". Hell, thats what this thread is about.

I'm fully aware of this. My question is "why?".

And anyway, when was the last time you heard someone say "I like VAG cars" as opposed to "I like Audis" or "I like VWs"? 90% of buyers probably don't even realise they're made by the same company.

[RobM77]

Personally I think in the UK at least, reverse snobbery is a much stronger force than snobbery. I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone talking aspirationally about a BMW or an Audi. I do hear a lot of derogatory comments though, probably because they're popular and highly rated and people in the UK seem inclined to think that it's all hype or just in the badge and not in the car itself. It's exactly the same as Apple; in the UK they were cool whilst they were the underdog through the 80s and 90s, but since their rise to fame with the iPod and especially the iPhone everyone is now suddenly derogatory about them, even though as far as I can see they're doing a similar thing to what they've always done compared to their contemparies. It's just the weird brand mentality we have in the UK. I read an article on Facebook the other day - teenagers are shunning that because it's not "cool". Think Ferrari vs Lamborghini, Trek vs Specialised etc. Hi-Fi is probably the apotheosis of reverse snobbery - audiophiles, in the UK at least, will never be seen with a piece of equipment made by a popular or well known brand, even if it's better. When I researched engagement rings a couple of years ago I was shocked at the level of reverse snobbery on the web - people were talking complete and utter bks just to re-enforce the fact that a ring made by a fancy sounding obscure company was 'better' than one from Tiffany or Cartier, which apparently were over-priced crap! When you actually researched their claims properly they were indeed talking complete rubbish. Same story repeated, just different forums and different people.

Personally, when I want a new car, bike, dishwasher etc I test something out and see how it compares to the opposition and then buy the best one for my needs; I think I'm in a minority doing that though, at least in the UK.

Edited by RobM77 on Sunday 5th January 16:31

[Pablo68]

daemon said:

kambites said:

daemon said:

I was saying that if you so inclined to buy

Yes, and this is what I, personally, don't understand. I never have an inclination to buy a car from a particular manufacturer.

Again, thats your subjective view.

People will say "i like BMWs" or "I do like a nice Merc". Hell, thats what this thread is about.

Well it's a starting point. I know there are some manufacturers that for one reason or another put me off straight away so theres no point me even looking further at them. A case in point is Jag: I really like the look of the XF-R but I cannot abide with a passion the touch screen that is the center of all the cars "Non-Driving" functions. So they are a no go for me. For me personally BMW has a head start.. I like the iDrive, I like the general interior layout and I like the general way they handle. And I love the Straight 6 petrol engine that no other manufacturer sees fit to put in a saloon car.

[Pablo68]

RobM77 said:

Personally I think in the UK at least, reverse snobbery is a much stronger force than snobbery. I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone talking aspirationally about a BMW or an Audi. I do hear a lot of derogatory comments though, probably because they're popular and highly rated and people in the UK seem inclined to think that it's all hype or just in the badge and not in the car itself. It's exactly the same as Apple; in the UK they were cool whilst they were the underdog through the 80s and 90s, but since their rise to fame with the iPod and especially the iPhone everyone is now suddenly derogatory about them, even though as far as I can see they're doing a similar thing to what they've always done compared to their contemparies. It's just the weird brand mentality we have in the UK. I read an article on Facebook the other day - teenagers are shunning that because it's not "cool".

Personally, when I want a new car, bike, dishwasher etc I test something out and see how it compares to the opposition and then buy the best one for my needs; I think I'm in a minority doing that though, at least in the UK.

Exactly.

[kambites]

RobM77 said:

Personally, when I want a new car, bike, dishwasher etc I test something out and see how it compares to the opposition and then buy the best one for my needs; I think I'm in a minority doing that though, at least in the UK.

Indeed. You'd hope this sort of attitude was more prevalent on PH than throughout the general car-buying population, but I actually think the opposite is true.