RE: McLaren to resurrect the F1
Discussion
Schermerhorn said:
Another question, why hasn't anyone else tried to copy the 3-seat layout like the original F1? Was it due to packaging, weight reasons etc?
I'd have thought it was primarily a vehicle access issue. I'd imagine getting in an out is a pain in the arse. Unless you're REALLY trying to get the weight in the centre of the car, which you'd only do if you had severe OCD, why bother.Edited by VladD on Thursday 21st July 13:09
kambites said:
Sway said:
I understood it to be a design rights issue, however there is a suburu powered, atom-exposed-chassis style kit that runs the staggered triple seat.
True. There's a closed-wheel kit car too - the Aeon GT3.
Evilex said:
(Ignoring any McLaren aspect)
I don't understand why more manufacturers don't go for a staggered 3 abreast layout with a central driver.
Chuck in some sort of dipped-beam adjustment (from left to right - don't Porsche do something like this?) and you have a car which can be easily sold in any market.
The greatest change necessary would be changing the toe-in to compensate for road camber.
It need not be confined to sports cars. Six-seater family car with optimum weight distribution (passenger wise) and plenty of space, plus no need for any adjustment for driving anywhere in the world...
Yes please.
Because you need the best possible view of traffic coming towards you. Moving over even from the right to the middle will decrease what you can see if a vehicle is in front of you making it dangerous. Simples. I don't understand why more manufacturers don't go for a staggered 3 abreast layout with a central driver.
Chuck in some sort of dipped-beam adjustment (from left to right - don't Porsche do something like this?) and you have a car which can be easily sold in any market.
The greatest change necessary would be changing the toe-in to compensate for road camber.
It need not be confined to sports cars. Six-seater family car with optimum weight distribution (passenger wise) and plenty of space, plus no need for any adjustment for driving anywhere in the world...
Yes please.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Fair point, but I'd suggest a degree of quoting implies a degree of inside information above no quoting at all. I'd also suggest that having design, chassis and engine details, a project name and a price - plus now customers on other forums confirming the details - might suggest the story deserves more than being dismissed as clickbait or fabrication.But then I'm biased!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
They also state that at the moment they don't know how to achieve the things they've promised... P1 is running at around 400 units iirc., and was a clean sheet design. 4c/650/675 is I think around 2000 units, was a clean sheet design and has had 3 minor revisions and two make ones.
They're hardly being lazy!
The 3 seat thing is a gimmick at best. It was fun in the F1, and sure, you could fit 3 people in, but it's more than a little impractical, with no real benefit in day to day use. "Here you go darling, sit behind me", and "just let me clamber over you as I get out". And you can't pay tolls or get into car parks or see properly to overtake.. Pointless really. But those three seats were of course attached to one of the greatest cars of all time. 240mph? In the early 90s? With "only" 600bhp? It was amazing. It was so far ahead of the game.
This new car is what? Marketing designing a car?
This new car is what? Marketing designing a car?
"This new car is what? Marketing designing a car?"
Well, all the speculation is actually crap! With quotes!!
http://www.topgear.com/car-news/mclaren-course-15-...
McLaren is building a test mule for a full-electric car right now. But it’s strictly an experimental project, not a production prototype. “Batteries and re-charging and motors and software are moving fast, and that’s exciting. It pushes the supply base. But we have to take it and engineer it for our market. It will be more than seven years before we launch a standalone EV.
“We would use the limited edition car to get feedback on how our customers use their cars. And where they charge them. Customer acceptance is as much a factor as our ability to do this. You need 300 miles range.”
But it’s not just range on the road. Take an EV on the track and its batteries are flat in no time. “Most electric sports cars now can only do one lap of the Nürburgring.” But Flewitt, a frequent weekend track driver himself, says 10 minutes isn’t enough. “I would like to see a track capability of 30 or 40 minutes.”
And it’s not just about plain numbers, however impressive those numbers might be. “It has to be exciting. You have to be able to feel engagement, vibration and sound. I don’t like fakery: I want authentic noise. The stereo playing a V8 would be crap.”
Recently we’ve had a few conversations with McLaren people about what level of driver assistance is appropriate for a supercar. “I can see an evolution in autonomous capability to enhance safety,” says Flewitt. But not fully autonomous McLarens.
“We are not in the transport business. We are in the entertainment business. If cars that you drive yourself just become recreational vehicles that’s OK with us. It’s going back to how supercars used to be. A Lamborghini Miura wasn’t transport – you couldn’t drive to work in it. It’s only recently that supercars became reliable enough to be transport as well as entertainment.” He points out that a century ago the car killed the horse as transport, but not as recreation. “There are 2 million horses in the UK and I bet few of them are used for transport.”
So that’s the future. What about reviving McLaren’s past? For years there have been rumours of some sort of three-seat revival, in a nod to the great F1. Some say the three-seat layout is something McLaren’s MSO bespoking division could tackle.
Flewitt pours cold water on the notion. “We have to make a profit and it’s expensive for MSO to do a new chassis.” And it’s hard to see how the existing carbonfibre tub and front chassis structure could be modified to take three seats and a central steering column and pedals. “I regularly get asked for a V12, a manual gearbox and three seater. And I don’t have six unused chassis numbers from the F1. We are a forward-looking company. We love the F1 like everyone else, but we’re not doing another F1.”
Well, all the speculation is actually crap! With quotes!!
http://www.topgear.com/car-news/mclaren-course-15-...
McLaren is building a test mule for a full-electric car right now. But it’s strictly an experimental project, not a production prototype. “Batteries and re-charging and motors and software are moving fast, and that’s exciting. It pushes the supply base. But we have to take it and engineer it for our market. It will be more than seven years before we launch a standalone EV.
“We would use the limited edition car to get feedback on how our customers use their cars. And where they charge them. Customer acceptance is as much a factor as our ability to do this. You need 300 miles range.”
But it’s not just range on the road. Take an EV on the track and its batteries are flat in no time. “Most electric sports cars now can only do one lap of the Nürburgring.” But Flewitt, a frequent weekend track driver himself, says 10 minutes isn’t enough. “I would like to see a track capability of 30 or 40 minutes.”
And it’s not just about plain numbers, however impressive those numbers might be. “It has to be exciting. You have to be able to feel engagement, vibration and sound. I don’t like fakery: I want authentic noise. The stereo playing a V8 would be crap.”
Recently we’ve had a few conversations with McLaren people about what level of driver assistance is appropriate for a supercar. “I can see an evolution in autonomous capability to enhance safety,” says Flewitt. But not fully autonomous McLarens.
“We are not in the transport business. We are in the entertainment business. If cars that you drive yourself just become recreational vehicles that’s OK with us. It’s going back to how supercars used to be. A Lamborghini Miura wasn’t transport – you couldn’t drive to work in it. It’s only recently that supercars became reliable enough to be transport as well as entertainment.” He points out that a century ago the car killed the horse as transport, but not as recreation. “There are 2 million horses in the UK and I bet few of them are used for transport.”
So that’s the future. What about reviving McLaren’s past? For years there have been rumours of some sort of three-seat revival, in a nod to the great F1. Some say the three-seat layout is something McLaren’s MSO bespoking division could tackle.
Flewitt pours cold water on the notion. “We have to make a profit and it’s expensive for MSO to do a new chassis.” And it’s hard to see how the existing carbonfibre tub and front chassis structure could be modified to take three seats and a central steering column and pedals. “I regularly get asked for a V12, a manual gearbox and three seater. And I don’t have six unused chassis numbers from the F1. We are a forward-looking company. We love the F1 like everyone else, but we’re not doing another F1.”
Quickmoose said:
Polynesian said:
I think I've finally lost contact with the car industry and realised I am turning into a classic/ old car person.
What the article did for me is remind me of how cars (this and many others) are so blingy and over the top now and aimed at people with a very different aesthetic and bank balance than me!
me too... I almost feel sorry for the younger car enthusiast who believes button pressing, mode selecting, exhaust burble trickery represents 'character'.What the article did for me is remind me of how cars (this and many others) are so blingy and over the top now and aimed at people with a very different aesthetic and bank balance than me!
Or that additional carbon fibre pieces or colour coordinated stitching are a modern substitute for high quality car design/aesthetics...that digital read outs and configurable driver and passenger displays are more important than being directly connected to what the engine, drive train and wheels do.
I think the very idea of what personal transport is, is changing....hence the idea of giving a crap about how something 'feels' through your seat, feet and fingers is replaced by what your brain and ears tell you about simple forward motion...'they're' getting lost in what you can do, and what can be done whilst going from a to b....rather than what's actually happening.
I'm quire sure the millennials will feel the same, but I'm very happy as a driving and car enthusiast to appreciate the older cars of 'my era' where analogue is giving way to digital.
You had stickers and chequered Recaros, we have carbon fibre and coloured stitching. Horses for courses. I don't think any real petrolhead has ever been guilty of putting techno wizardry ahead of feel though? I would question their credentials if they did... But it all adds to the experience for us. The pursuit of fuel efficiency may seem like it's diminishing feel, but some of the stuff being introduced is still in it's infancy and has a way to go yet. I'm sure people we're moaning about power steering, hydraulically assisted brakes and the likes when they were first introduced but you don't pay them much regard now?
Personal transport has been evolving since the very beginning. Cars are far more accessible now than they ever have been and the industry's relentless pursuit of that isn't going to change. 20 years ago you still had cars that struggled to do 70mph let alone felt civilised or safe at that speed. These days you think nothing of it (unless you have the real misfortune of being given a Chevvy Spark as a courtesy car, which I would actually recommend for the comedy value, you need a serious tail wind to see north of 70!) As cars become more accessible there are more and more people diluting us petrol heads so our market segment shrinks. I'm not sure there's much we can do about that other than standing by the likes of PistonHeads and other communities to make sure our voice is heard.
As a millennial though, I appreciate my generation as much as the generations that have preceded it. I'd love to be in the position to build my dream garage but I'm not, and I'm far happier driving a car from "my" generation with all of it's "artificial" character because it's more than capable of entertaining me from a driving perspective and yet has all of the creature comforts I want. The fact is I don't feel short changed on the experience when driving my car, but I do when I'm driving it's equivalent from the generation before it (or it's grandfather.) I like being able to take a phone call, listen to DAB, make use of working climate control, open the boot from the keyfob etc. They are qualities that I genuinely miss when I've left "my" generation of cars, as superficial as that may seem.
Maybe that's why we fall in love with our generation of cars? Because we choose to compromise our wants and lusts with everyday convenience, and because cars all have their personalities and charms that we eventually succumb to, such that we can't help but fall head over heals.
Either way, I'm quite happy with my car. It does everything I ask of it and makes me smile.
danielj58 said:
I'm sure you didn't mean it in that sense but I find that a little condescending. Those things do represent character to us, you might not appreciate it but we do. My car has artificial exhaust burble, the ECU dumps fuel into the exhaust on the overrun just to make a pop, bubble and fart, and I love that. It's a total waste of fuel and it's there simply to make me smile, and I don't feel ashamed for smiling at it every time I push the button to start the engine in the morning.
You had stickers and chequered Recaros, we have carbon fibre and coloured stitching. Horses for courses. I don't think any real petrolhead has ever been guilty of putting techno wizardry ahead of feel though? I would question their credentials if they did... But it all adds to the experience for us. The pursuit of fuel efficiency may seem like it's diminishing feel, but some of the stuff being introduced is still in it's infancy and has a way to go yet. I'm sure people we're moaning about power steering, hydraulically assisted brakes and the likes when they were first introduced but you don't pay them much regard now?
Personal transport has been evolving since the very beginning. Cars are far more accessible now than they ever have been and the industry's relentless pursuit of that isn't going to change. 20 years ago you still had cars that struggled to do 70mph let alone felt civilised or safe at that speed. These days you think nothing of it (unless you have the real misfortune of being given a Chevvy Spark as a courtesy car, which I would actually recommend for the comedy value, you need a serious tail wind to see north of 70!) As cars become more accessible there are more and more people diluting us petrol heads so our market segment shrinks. I'm not sure there's much we can do about that other than standing by the likes of PistonHeads and other communities to make sure our voice is heard.
As a millennial though, I appreciate my generation as much as the generations that have preceded it. I'd love to be in the position to build my dream garage but I'm not, and I'm far happier driving a car from "my" generation with all of it's "artificial" character because it's more than capable of entertaining me from a driving perspective and yet has all of the creature comforts I want. The fact is I don't feel short changed on the experience when driving my car, but I do when I'm driving it's equivalent from the generation before it (or it's grandfather.) I like being able to take a phone call, listen to DAB, make use of working climate control, open the boot from the keyfob etc. They are qualities that I genuinely miss when I've left "my" generation of cars, as superficial as that may seem.
Maybe that's why we fall in love with our generation of cars? Because we choose to compromise our wants and lusts with everyday convenience, and because cars all have their personalities and charms that we eventually succumb to, such that we can't help but fall head over heals.
Either way, I'm quite happy with my car. It does everything I ask of it and makes me smile.
Nicely written. You had stickers and chequered Recaros, we have carbon fibre and coloured stitching. Horses for courses. I don't think any real petrolhead has ever been guilty of putting techno wizardry ahead of feel though? I would question their credentials if they did... But it all adds to the experience for us. The pursuit of fuel efficiency may seem like it's diminishing feel, but some of the stuff being introduced is still in it's infancy and has a way to go yet. I'm sure people we're moaning about power steering, hydraulically assisted brakes and the likes when they were first introduced but you don't pay them much regard now?
Personal transport has been evolving since the very beginning. Cars are far more accessible now than they ever have been and the industry's relentless pursuit of that isn't going to change. 20 years ago you still had cars that struggled to do 70mph let alone felt civilised or safe at that speed. These days you think nothing of it (unless you have the real misfortune of being given a Chevvy Spark as a courtesy car, which I would actually recommend for the comedy value, you need a serious tail wind to see north of 70!) As cars become more accessible there are more and more people diluting us petrol heads so our market segment shrinks. I'm not sure there's much we can do about that other than standing by the likes of PistonHeads and other communities to make sure our voice is heard.
As a millennial though, I appreciate my generation as much as the generations that have preceded it. I'd love to be in the position to build my dream garage but I'm not, and I'm far happier driving a car from "my" generation with all of it's "artificial" character because it's more than capable of entertaining me from a driving perspective and yet has all of the creature comforts I want. The fact is I don't feel short changed on the experience when driving my car, but I do when I'm driving it's equivalent from the generation before it (or it's grandfather.) I like being able to take a phone call, listen to DAB, make use of working climate control, open the boot from the keyfob etc. They are qualities that I genuinely miss when I've left "my" generation of cars, as superficial as that may seem.
Maybe that's why we fall in love with our generation of cars? Because we choose to compromise our wants and lusts with everyday convenience, and because cars all have their personalities and charms that we eventually succumb to, such that we can't help but fall head over heals.
Either way, I'm quite happy with my car. It does everything I ask of it and makes me smile.
danielj58 said:
Quickmoose said:
Polynesian said:
I think I've finally lost contact with the car industry and realised I am turning into a classic/ old car person.
What the article did for me is remind me of how cars (this and many others) are so blingy and over the top now and aimed at people with a very different aesthetic and bank balance than me!
me too... I almost feel sorry for the younger car enthusiast who believes button pressing, mode selecting, exhaust burble trickery represents 'character'.What the article did for me is remind me of how cars (this and many others) are so blingy and over the top now and aimed at people with a very different aesthetic and bank balance than me!
Or that additional carbon fibre pieces or colour coordinated stitching are a modern substitute for high quality car design/aesthetics...that digital read outs and configurable driver and passenger displays are more important than being directly connected to what the engine, drive train and wheels do.
I think the very idea of what personal transport is, is changing....hence the idea of giving a crap about how something 'feels' through your seat, feet and fingers is replaced by what your brain and ears tell you about simple forward motion...'they're' getting lost in what you can do, and what can be done whilst going from a to b....rather than what's actually happening.
I'm quire sure the millennials will feel the same, but I'm very happy as a driving and car enthusiast to appreciate the older cars of 'my era' where analogue is giving way to digital.
You had stickers and chequered Recaros, we have carbon fibre and coloured stitching. Horses for courses. I don't think any real petrolhead has ever been guilty of putting techno wizardry ahead of feel though? I would question their credentials if they did... But it all adds to the experience for us. The pursuit of fuel efficiency may seem like it's diminishing feel, but some of the stuff being introduced is still in it's infancy and has a way to go yet. I'm sure people we're moaning about power steering, hydraulically assisted brakes and the likes when they were first introduced but you don't pay them much regard now?
Personal transport has been evolving since the very beginning. Cars are far more accessible now than they ever have been and the industry's relentless pursuit of that isn't going to change. 20 years ago you still had cars that struggled to do 70mph let alone felt civilised or safe at that speed. These days you think nothing of it (unless you have the real misfortune of being given a Chevvy Spark as a courtesy car, which I would actually recommend for the comedy value, you need a serious tail wind to see north of 70!) As cars become more accessible there are more and more people diluting us petrol heads so our market segment shrinks. I'm not sure there's much we can do about that other than standing by the likes of PistonHeads and other communities to make sure our voice is heard.
As a millennial though, I appreciate my generation as much as the generations that have preceded it. I'd love to be in the position to build my dream garage but I'm not, and I'm far happier driving a car from "my" generation with all of it's "artificial" character because it's more than capable of entertaining me from a driving perspective and yet has all of the creature comforts I want. The fact is I don't feel short changed on the experience when driving my car, but I do when I'm driving it's equivalent from the generation before it (or it's grandfather.) I like being able to take a phone call, listen to DAB, make use of working climate control, open the boot from the keyfob etc. They are qualities that I genuinely miss when I've left "my" generation of cars, as superficial as that may seem.
Maybe that's why we fall in love with our generation of cars? Because we choose to compromise our wants and lusts with everyday convenience, and because cars all have their personalities and charms that we eventually succumb to, such that we can't help but fall head over heals.
Either way, I'm quite happy with my car. It does everything I ask of it and makes me smile.
And it happened so quickly. I had a 996 drive past me this morning - you know what it sounded like? A nice engine being driven at 20mph. Not a bloody farty, poppy, boomy drone from (insert most modern cars). Even the last gen Cayman with the 6 was getting shouty. It made a nice noise, but it had to make sure everyone else knew it was there too.
Anyway, each to their own I suppose, but it's a shame class and subtlety is being removed from cars. I'm not sure there's a single "cool" car on sale now.
Roscco said:
I could be totally wrong but isn't there some sort of legal dvla (in the uk) issue with a 3 seat layout?
For the next two years, such a rule would be irrelevant because if it can obtain type approval anywhere in the EU it will be legal in the UK. After that, who knows but the government would be crazy to try to retract existing type approvals so any such rule would be unlikely to affect this (unless they're very slow to bring it to market). PunterCam said:
Turbos? Boring. Fake exhaust sound (speakers, fuel into exhaust, it's all the same) tacky and really undesirable, endless bloody driving modes and automatic gearboxes.. It's all so artificial and scripted..
Ferrari 488 - boring? I think not. Evidently it still has the power to put the fear of God into anyone not treating it with respect, as evidenced from the write up on this very forum. If that car is artificial and scripted then give me that everyday over something like a Daytona, a car that whilst is a pretty thing is ergonomically horrible to live with. This from an article comparing a Daytona to a 550 Maranello:-"The Daytona has simple, powerless bucket seats, and the most vivid and unpleasant clue to its age is its recirculating-ball manual steering, which serves as a mobile Soloflex at low speeds (although it becomes feathery and precise at highway velocities.) Moreover, its steering wheel resides at a bus driver's angle, recalling the days when such ergonomic decisions were governed exclusively by the bulk of the Commendatore, who mandated all wheel and pedal positions (thereby eliminating all humans of small stature from becoming Ferrari drivers)."
I'd rather have the knowledge that if I were to be in a car crash, I'd be far more likely to walk away if I was in 488 as opposed to being carried away (or worse, scraped away) in something 40 years older. Not to mention the fact I can sit in traffic in air conditioned comfort without worrying that the engine will overheat. But hey, let's all go back to the days of old when cars and their reliability, ergonomics and (lack of) creature comforts were 'organic' and 'unscripted'...
PunterCam said:
Anyway, each to their own I suppose, but it's a shame class and subtlety is being removed from cars. I'm not sure there's a single "cool" car on sale now.
How exactly is class and subtlety being removed from cars?? The current BMW M5, for example, is not a car that really shouts its performance potential yet gets derided on this forum for not looking different enough from its more lowly brethren. A Mercedes E63 AMG can be specced with a Business Package that removes all the 'shoutier' visual elements to create a sort of sleeper executive express.And there's not a single "cool" car on sale now? In your opinion maybe but luckily the rest of the world gets on with life and enjoys their cars.
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