RE: Aston boss doubles down on PHEVs amid EV slowdown
Discussion
Snaaakeey said:
Die EVs die!!
Bwahahahahah!
Its the last of its kind, wont see another like it, end of an era!
Said it was hogwash then and still do now.
Virtue signalling twaddle.
"Virtue signalling", thats a phrase that gets dropped in, nobody is spending BILLIONS to signal their virtuousness, dont know anyone with an EV that has used that as a flex for their environmental credentials.Bwahahahahah!
Its the last of its kind, wont see another like it, end of an era!
Said it was hogwash then and still do now.
Virtue signalling twaddle.
Its not going away, nobody is going to ignore a three/four times increase in efficiency and go back to burning oil now, not indefinitely, the genie is out of the box, one article on PH doesnt mean its over and you will be collecting your new petrol car in 2040.
It will have ups and downs, of course, like changing from horses and steam to piston engines.
You are deluded if you think like that, I like ICE engines and for now will hang onto them but I am not letting that cloud my appraisal of the situation.
J4CKO said:
Was thinking more of those that dont have the wherewithal or resources to develop an ICE powertrain than those who build highly advanced 3 cylinder up to and including 12 cylinder engines like Toyota, despite their market segment, Toyota are massively bigger and better resourced than AM.
Am thinking more about new players coming in and established brands from non western manufacturers, who would have more chance knocking up a 4 cyl, like MG still using warmed over er, MG ICE powertrains in the form of the K Series in the MG3 for example, which dates back almost 40 years, being introduced in 1988 and developed in the preceding years.
The challenge not being so much creating an engine, but one that meets emissions, performance, NVH and whatever other targets, that folk want to buy.
If you look at anything that isnt a Western design, the engines are derivatives, clones or copies of western stuff, or they just buy the company nowadays, or they are not much good that would have zero chance of meeting our emissions targets.
No such issue with electric motors, they are emissions free and massively more efficient by default, an EV motor in a Chinese EV can potentially be every bit as good as one in an Aston Martin, but even AM had to buy in engines from Mercedes and cant see the Chinese knocking up a twin turbo 600 bhp v8 that matches or exceeds an AMG one.
OK - see where you are coming from. One good thing about electric motors is that they are older technology than ICE engines, much simpler, and much more a 'solved' tech. Plus far more electric motors are made a year than ICE so more companies are proficient at designing and making them. (good friend was high up in Johnson Electric) Just think of a car - it has one ICE but can have >10 electric motorsAm thinking more about new players coming in and established brands from non western manufacturers, who would have more chance knocking up a 4 cyl, like MG still using warmed over er, MG ICE powertrains in the form of the K Series in the MG3 for example, which dates back almost 40 years, being introduced in 1988 and developed in the preceding years.
The challenge not being so much creating an engine, but one that meets emissions, performance, NVH and whatever other targets, that folk want to buy.
If you look at anything that isnt a Western design, the engines are derivatives, clones or copies of western stuff, or they just buy the company nowadays, or they are not much good that would have zero chance of meeting our emissions targets.
No such issue with electric motors, they are emissions free and massively more efficient by default, an EV motor in a Chinese EV can potentially be every bit as good as one in an Aston Martin, but even AM had to buy in engines from Mercedes and cant see the Chinese knocking up a twin turbo 600 bhp v8 that matches or exceeds an AMG one.
Not sure I agree with your statement about anything that isn't a Western design being a clone or not much good - especially as you talk about Toyota. Mazda's Skyactiv X, Honda's Vtech, Nissan's VR38DETT - those are only clones/ derivatives of Western designs if you think all ICE are derivative from Otto Benz
J4CKO said:
MOOSECORTINA said:
Sure sign that the EV bubble has burst. Good to know that normal cars will be available. Well done Aston Martin, more manufacturers to follow.
Yeah, because everyone will now just revert to manufacturing and driving ICE not further develop EV's and their infrastructure to reduce the downsides of range, charging and cost as that threefold increase in efficiency is just not worth having ? Because middle aged and older blokes like what they can afford and are familiar with and have a tantrum when EVs are mentioned ?The bubble hasnt burst, its still getting going, there is absolutely no way in 25 years anyone will be buying a new ICE car in the UK, this is a transitional period, with ups and downs, but one way or another, electric motors will be powering the bulk of transport in the future.
Not sure why its so hard to grasp, I like ICE cars and have no immediate plans for an EV, I dont rule it in or out but this is happening and its not going away, very naive to think that one article on PH about 200k plus luxury cars sounds the death knell for the EV.
it's already changing. TX.
Terminator X said:
Lol 11 years to go and you guys are SO confident nothing will change it's already changing.
TX.
Do you really think that the UK has any say in where the market is going? I suggest you look further East. There will not be a Western mass market motor manufacturer if we are unable to compete with the Chinese. it's already changing. TX.
Nomme de Plum said:
Terminator X said:
Lol 11 years to go and you guys are SO confident nothing will change it's already changing.
TX.
Do you really think that the UK has any say in where the market is going? I suggest you look further East. There will not be a Western mass market motor manufacturer if we are unable to compete with the Chinese. it's already changing. TX.
TX.
Simoninspalding said:
I think that politicians were advised correctly. If CO2 emissions do not start falling soon we are all f
ed. They were misled by the motor industry who told them that price parity could be achieved by late 2020s, but failed to say that was because they would happily stiff the buying public by egregiously increasing the cost of ICE cars to match BEV and cut anything from their range that could be considered affordable.
Soooo CO2 makes up 0.04% of the earths atmosphere, if we all go to EV's how much wil 0.01% or 0.02% make to the "Global Warming" bs that is being sprouted?ed. They were misled by the motor industry who told them that price parity could be achieved by late 2020s, but failed to say that was because they would happily stiff the buying public by egregiously increasing the cost of ICE cars to match BEV and cut anything from their range that could be considered affordable. Do not believe the carp being sprouted by politicians et al
Terminator X said:
At some point surely people will stop buying cheap Chinese tat and that includes their cars. I don't understand it at all, I'd never knowingly buy anything at say £50k plus all designed and built in China.
TX.
China is trying to be the first nation to both be militarily aggressive and maintain massive trading links with those it's being aggressive against.TX.
Can't see that working out well.
Terminator X said:
At some point surely people will stop buying cheap Chinese tat and that includes their cars. I don't understand it at all, I'd never knowingly buy anything at say £50k plus all designed and built in China.
TX.
No they won't. Those Chinese manufactures have huge margin in their cars. They could destroy the legacy manufacturers but are smart enough not to start an economic trade war. TX.
A lot of product that emanates from China is not tat and will be built to whatever demanding standards we set. If anything the pressure will come from the consumer for cheaper product.
They could knock 40-50% from that £50K car and still make a profit.
People here need to wake up and smell the coffee. EVs are getting to the point that they are cheaper to manufacture than their outgoing ICE counterpart. Only in the West do we have a problem.
Nomme de Plum said:
Terminator X said:
At some point surely people will stop buying cheap Chinese tat and that includes their cars. I don't understand it at all, I'd never knowingly buy anything at say £50k plus all designed and built in China.
TX.
No they won't. Those Chinese manufactures have huge margin in their cars. They could destroy the legacy manufacturers but are smart enough not to start an economic trade war. TX.
A lot of product that emanates from China is not tat and will be built to whatever demanding standards we set. If anything the pressure will come from the consumer for cheaper product.
They could knock 40-50% from that £50K car and still make a profit.
People here need to wake up and smell the coffee. EVs are getting to the point that they are cheaper to manufacture than their outgoing ICE counterpart. Only in the West do we have a problem.
Add in their actions in the South China Sea, and many more, and the West does not have a problem. If the West stops buying (or materially changes the picture through tariffs, etc.) - then the burgeoning middle classes in China are China's biggest problem.
garypotter said:
Forgot to add very good luck to Aston Martin for coming out against the ev hype, maybe a few other manufacturers are in the same stable ie Toyota/lexus
Whilst wishing to see AM success they are an utter irrelevance in terms of the future of Motor Manufacturing. Toyota are not in a good place as Hydrogen for personal transport simply is not going to happen. Scale is everything and China has it in spades now exceeding the USA.
58M cars sold globally every year and China's market 320M is growing at over 11M (4%) annually.
Nomme de Plum said:
So why have are Porsche bringing to market an EV Boxter and Cayman next year? The Panamera and Cayenne will also be late 2025/2026. That only leaves the 911 as continuing as solely ICE for the time being.
The money has been spent on R&D - they will pretty much have to build them and the cybersecurity thing on the run-of-the-mill 718 Boxster/Cayman means they would have absolutely nothing in the EU in that segment.... so electric Boxster and Cayman it is. Porsche will still be producing the ICE models, just not selling them in the EU.Nomme de Plum said:
turbobloke said:
A few of us missed the magic roundabout u-turn. Oct 2023, EV risiduals plummeting said Toyota accurately.
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/electric-veh...
01 Jan review looking back: vehicle electrification got pushback, says General Motors, and others.
https://www.batterytechonline.com/automotive-mobil...
The only reason EVs are doing as badly as they are, rather than even worse, is the forcing from deluded politicians in their dreamworld bubble, making taxpayers subsidise white elephants all over the place.
One or two halo EVs with 1000bhp won't be used by Granny Miggins to go buy budgie seed.
All cars depreciate and it's far better to provide actual evidence.https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/electric-veh...
01 Jan review looking back: vehicle electrification got pushback, says General Motors, and others.
https://www.batterytechonline.com/automotive-mobil...
The only reason EVs are doing as badly as they are, rather than even worse, is the forcing from deluded politicians in their dreamworld bubble, making taxpayers subsidise white elephants all over the place.
One or two halo EVs with 1000bhp won't be used by Granny Miggins to go buy budgie seed.
"The average car depreciation will hit hardest in the first year of ownership. Generally, the drop will be around 15-35% in the first 12 months. And that will continue to rise up to 50% or more over three years.
Year 1: 15-35% depreciation. 65-85% of the original value.
Year 3: 40-60% depreciation. 40-65% of the original value.
Year 5: 60-70% depreciation. 30-40% of the original value.
Year 8-10: 80% depreciation. 20% of the original value."
https://motorway.co.uk/sell-my-car/guides/car-depr...
BTW there's good discounts to be had from new ICEs 20-24% Audis Nissan and the like.
Anyway a BMW i3 2020 range from 14,000 -17,000 with a few up to £20K and also at the power end. So basically bang in that Year 3 range.
A 10 year old BMW i3 is circa £8,000 - £10,000 also not drastic depreciation at all is it.
I'm pleased to say mine has gone up a few hundred quid over the last 3 months not that I'm selling so it doesn't matter.
2024 has been little better than the review comments around 2023. A lot of coverage, too much to list, reckons 2024 and 2025 will depend on the degree to which incentives (subsidies/bribes with taxpayer monies) are used...also on China.
Sway said:
That's just untrue. Build an ICE in China to the same quality, with the same government support - and it'll be cheaper to produce.
Add in their actions in the South China Sea, and many more, and the West does not have a problem. If the West stops buying (or materially changes the picture through tariffs, etc.) - then the burgeoning middle classes in China are China's biggest problem.
They do build a few ICE but an EV has far less components are easier to produce. They are massively ahead of the West in terms of battery manufacturing and supply chain security. They are not developing ICEs and they are EVs. 1.4Bn is a big internal market. China's weakness is its demographic and dismal berth rate but the West is in the same boat. Add in their actions in the South China Sea, and many more, and the West does not have a problem. If the West stops buying (or materially changes the picture through tariffs, etc.) - then the burgeoning middle classes in China are China's biggest problem.
The South China sea is undoubtedly an issue but less of one than China's ever growing investments in developing nations, especially ones with resources China wants. The West were very late to see that economic threat.
Of course the whole EV thing is politically driven. Taxpayers' money used in an attempt to make them more attractive, but the reality can't be hidden, i.e. that they're an environmental nonsense and just not a good proposition for the customer, particularly one who purchases with their own money. Government meddling on a meritocratic system never works.
Nomme de Plum said:
Sway said:
That's just untrue. Build an ICE in China to the same quality, with the same government support - and it'll be cheaper to produce.
Add in their actions in the South China Sea, and many more, and the West does not have a problem. If the West stops buying (or materially changes the picture through tariffs, etc.) - then the burgeoning middle classes in China are China's biggest problem.
They do build a few ICE but an EV has far less components are easier to produce. They are massively ahead of the West in terms of battery manufacturing and supply chain security. They are not developing ICEs and they are EVs. 1.4Bn is a big internal market. Chinas weakness is its demographic and dismal berth rate but the West is in the same boat. Add in their actions in the South China Sea, and many more, and the West does not have a problem. If the West stops buying (or materially changes the picture through tariffs, etc.) - then the burgeoning middle classes in China are China's biggest problem.
The South China sea is undoubtedly an issue but less of one than China's ever growing investments in developing nations, especially ones with resources China wants. The West were very late to see that economic threat.
A large population is only any use if they have money. Resources are only needed if they can be sold. "Investing" (cannot believe you wrote that with a straight face!) in developing countries is only any use if those materials can get there. China has no force projection to secure that supply chain. The West does.
If you really think the 'West' isn't fully aware and have been from the beginning, you're a fool.
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