IOM TT Lap time - could a car beat it?

[Liquid Knight]

[quote=EDLTThe "WRC boys" don't do the Manx rally

Everything else you wrote is utter nonsense.
[/quote]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiBoP7tcG_s "BMW M3 beats WRC cars round the Manx Rally".

[rhinochopig]

Liquid Knight said:

interloper said:

Oh raw nerve touched there me thinks!

Bikes can be quick and are definitely more challenging, rewarding, exciting etc but cars are generally faster when things turn bendy and nadgery.

Every TT, every time some kit car that'd be about as much use on the road as a horse on stilts sets a lap record at the ring, every time some WRX driver gets humilliated on a "B" road by a 125 rider with "L" plates, every Summer on any road.

Can a car be quicker than a bike round....blah.....blah.....blah?

Of course bikers are braver than car drivers. We don't have crumple zones, seat belts, air bags and a big metal cage to protect us. Bikes are more rewarding than cars because no matter how fast or what car I drive I feel like a passenger compared to being sat on a bike. No matter how powerfull and well set up a car can be for the track you'll come unstuck at the speed ramps as you exit the circuit. My GSXR is as fast as anything I have ever driven but I can get on turn the key and go anywhere. From the Nurburgring to the local news agents.

The more you write the less you are correct. Impressive.

[Liquid Knight]

interloper said:

Liquid Knight said:

WRC car would be close and fun to watch. Oh hang on they already do a Manx Rally and they're a lot slower.

I hadn't noticed that line, that is funny! The Manx Rally uses different roads and besides due to FIA regs rally stages are not allowed to exceed a specific average MPH (which is set pretty low, think its about 120kph). So they couldn't use much of the TT course at all, even if they wanted to sadly.

That is a shame. Would be fun and settle the argument at the same time.

[FussyFez]

IMO, a modern day group b car (like the top end time attack cars, but with alot of time spent testing suspension and tyres) would have a good crack.

I do have alot of respect for the nutters who hop onto those 200mph rocking horses and fly down those narrow roads, infact i respect all bikers who go out onto UK roads with all the idiot drivers. Sod that.

[Liquid Knight]

rhinochopig said:

Liquid Knight said:

interloper said:

Oh raw nerve touched there me thinks!

Bikes can be quick and are definitely more challenging, rewarding, exciting etc but cars are generally faster when things turn bendy and nadgery.

Every TT, every time some kit car that'd be about as much use on the road as a horse on stilts sets a lap record at the ring, every time some WRX driver gets humilliated on a "B" road by a 125 rider with "L" plates, every Summer on any road.

Can a car be quicker than a bike round....blah.....blah.....blah?

Of course bikers are braver than car drivers. We don't have crumple zones, seat belts, air bags and a big metal cage to protect us. Bikes are more rewarding than cars because no matter how fast or what car I drive I feel like a passenger compared to being sat on a bike. No matter how powerfull and well set up a car can be for the track you'll come unstuck at the speed ramps as you exit the circuit. My GSXR is as fast as anything I have ever driven but I can get on turn the key and go anywhere. From the Nurburgring to the local news agents.

The more you write the less you are correct. Impressive.

Here's a few cars that could be as quick as bikes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QghVW7LiNng

Shame they're not as quick at getting out of a car park.

[Liquid Knight]

Going to have to agree to disagree on this one (even though you are completely wrong) I'm off to the pub.

[Dimski]

Liquid Knight said:

EDLT said:

The "WRC boys" don't do the Manx rally

Everything else you wrote is utter nonsense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiBoP7tcG_s "BMW M3 beats WRC cars round the Manx Rally".

Tarmac is the reason for that. (and fantastic driving to be fair...)

It cancels out the 4WD advantage. TBH, I think a WRC car may struggle against something like an Ultima GTR270 on the track. (I have no idea if that's correct btw.)

I still think it would be a victory for the car.

After all, if a slick shod Rover vitesse with (reportedly) standard engine can manage over 100mph, I think a really decent car, properly set up, with plenty of straight line speed should easily (!) manage an extra 30mph average speed over a lap.

[EDLT]

Liquid Knight said:

EDLT said:

The "WRC boys" don't do the Manx rally

Everything else you wrote is utter nonsense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiBoP7tcG_s "BMW M3 beats WRC cars round the Manx Rally".

A BMW M3 is not a motorbike. All that video shows is a BMW being faster than some bloke called McRae, we don't know which one or what they were driving. Although its likely they were either in something built to Group A spec, which is slower than a WRC car.

Edited by EDLT on Sunday 6th June 13:48

[Dare2Fail]

BarnatosGhost said:

Dimski said:

Dunk76 said:

As someone said, much of the TT is flat out - which would inherently favour a bike... a 200mph car with sufficient downforce would require a lot of power - at the expense of agility and slow corner traction.

A lot of the TT course is very narrow, which again favours bikes - some of the stuff that the bikes straight line would represent significant corners to a car.

I'd still put money on the bike.

But, are the narrow sections including change of directions?

The Autocar Cadwell park video, Bike vs GTR say that the two areas where the car had an advantage are chicanes (+ alpine loop) and braking.

So my logic is that straight, or single direction narrow bits will favour the bike, a narrow section with a few changes in it may favour the car.

My moneys on the car. But, are we making a fair comparison? Are the IOM TT bikes not race bikes? What about road vs road?

they are warmed up, but basically pretty similar to stock bikes you or i can buy. Comparing them to a single-purpose single-seater open-wheeled racing cars wouldn't be fair.

I'd say 'warmed up' may be a bit of an understatement. A fairer comparison would be looking at the superstock lap record rather than the superbike lap record. Then you are comparing a road bike, on road tyres, with a different exhaust. Fastest superstock lap is 129.746mph.

[interloper]

EDLT said:

All that video shows is a BMW being faster than some bloke called McRae, we don't know which one or what they were driving. Although its likely they were either in something built to Group A spec, which is slower than a WRC car.

Edited by EDLT on Sunday 6th June 13:48

That was from the late eighties or early Nineties, so the M3 would have been group A spec, same as everything it was competing against. The McRae referred to, would have been multiple British rally champion (and Colin's Dad) Jimmy, who would most likely have been driving a Cosworth Sierra of some flavour.

[EDLT]

interloper said:

EDLT said:

All that video shows is a BMW being faster than some bloke called McRae, we don't know which one or what they were driving. Although its likely they were either in something built to Group A spec, which is slower than a WRC car.

Edited by EDLT on Sunday 6th June 13:48

That was from the late eighties or early Nineties, so the M3 would have been group A spec, same as everything it was competing against. The McRae referred to, would have been multiple British rally champion (and Colin's Dad) Jimmy, who would most likely have been driving a Cosworth Sierra of some flavour.

The 2WD cars were allowed to be a bit lighter and they lacked a turbo, but they were basically the same. However, none of this explains why Liquid Knight would use it as evidence of a bikes being faster than cars everywhere.

Now he's run off to avoid this turning in to a his very own ambwilans thread, so we'll never know.

[slimtater]

In the words of Harry Hill, "there is only one way to find out,......"




"FIGHT!!!!"




Why hasn't this been done - was Tony Pond the last to attempt it? Surely not - a Rover Vitesse is the only benchmark we have for 4 wheels?!?

[otolith]

Liquid Knight said:

Can a car lap quicker than a bike at any track? No.

I think you need to wait for BMW to make a remappable diesel bike:

Rocksteadyeddie said:

Ok. So round the Nordschleife the fastest bike is almost a minute adrift of the fastest car.

Scuffers said:

back to the subject, I reckon the right car will be faster, but think small, no way would you get something like a Veron/Macca F1 round there efficiently, I would suggest a 911 is about as big as you would want to go...

Possibly a bit unfair to the F1 there - it's shorter, narrower and lower than a current 911 GT2 RS. The Veyron is about the same length as the 911 but six inches wider. Narrower than a Zonda or Enzo, though.

[Gad-Westy]

Liquid Knight said:

rhinochopig said:

Liquid Knight said:

interloper said:

Oh raw nerve touched there me thinks!

Bikes can be quick and are definitely more challenging, rewarding, exciting etc but cars are generally faster when things turn bendy and nadgery.

Every TT, every time some kit car that'd be about as much use on the road as a horse on stilts sets a lap record at the ring, every time some WRX driver gets humilliated on a "B" road by a 125 rider with "L" plates, every Summer on any road.

Can a car be quicker than a bike round....blah.....blah.....blah?

Of course bikers are braver than car drivers. We don't have crumple zones, seat belts, air bags and a big metal cage to protect us. Bikes are more rewarding than cars because no matter how fast or what car I drive I feel like a passenger compared to being sat on a bike. No matter how powerfull and well set up a car can be for the track you'll come unstuck at the speed ramps as you exit the circuit. My GSXR is as fast as anything I have ever driven but I can get on turn the key and go anywhere. From the Nurburgring to the local news agents.

The more you write the less you are correct. Impressive.

Here's a few cars that could be as quick as bikes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QghVW7LiNng

Shame they're not as quick at getting out of a car park.

Most irrelevant post ever!

[130R]

I think a radical on slicks could beat it.

edited to add: a purpose built open wheel race car would easily beat it. The fastest race cars are faster than any bike, end of story.

Edited by 130R on Sunday 6th June 14:42

[EvoBarry]

Surely the only real areas the car will have the advantage are under braking - and unless I'm not mistaken there aren't *that* many big braking areas on the TT course? Not enough to make up the difference the bike will make exiting most of the mid speed bends imo.

The Elise/Caterham idea is just laughable imo, they're awesome at sensible speeds but would get kicked all over the place at high speed - which is where they'd need to spend most of their lap.

Having witnessed with my own eyes the TT racing (various vantage points too) I simply cannot see a car matching them. I would love to see someone attempt it mind, it would be awe inspiring.

[Dave J]

I have a caterham and experience of chasing bikes at the ring, the caterham is poor above 120mph due to general shape of brick and front lift.

these are not just fast bikes at IOM, but fast bikes with nutters on board !!!

To maintain 131mph average the only things that would have a crack at it would be caparo, ultima, M600 and radical sr8 and probably T70. The length of time the car would need to be above 160mph is simply not possible from anything like a porker or other 350bhp/ton road based car. I think you need at least 450bhp/ton *and* 200mph capability with 40>150mph in the region of 12 seconds to maintain overall speed average.

[kingmoosa]

Liquid Knight said:

Can a car lap quicker than a bike at any track? No.

I can't believe that people are so attached to their tin boxes that they actually believe a car can be quicker than a bike.


You can close the thread now.

Oh dear, how embarrasing

What an ill informed Chopper

[Dave J]

http://bridgetogantry.com/2/index.php?option=com_c...

its not the rev counter !

[Scuffers]

EvoBarry said:

The Elise/Caterham idea is just laughable imo, they're awesome at sensible speeds but would get kicked all over the place at high speed - which is where they'd need to spend most of their lap.

explain the ring times then?

The Elise particularly good at high speed cornering etc.

for example, can you honestly see a bike matching this?

http://www.vimeo.com/10666444

Edited by Scuffers on Sunday 6th June 15:30