Murder by screw

[VladD]

Grey Ghost said:

Trying to add a bit of balance here as I have seen this first hand locally to me, though thankfully without the consequences of this incident.

Firstly the road concerned is a known unofficial race track at night, especially weekends. It is very close to dense housing. Some people trying to sleep will not be able to do so with loud cars roaring around throughout the night. Some occupants will complain to the local Police and Council but find their pleas fall on deaf ears, no pun intended. Smaller group of locals decide to take matters into their own hands and contaminate road with objects that they believe will puncture tyres and discourage "racers" from returning.

Exactly the same thing has happened a few times at Lakeside Shopping Centre in the past 3 or 4 years. Locals complain to Police and Council, nothing happens, "racing" continues and B&Q sells a few more bags of tacks than usual one weekend. Consequence is that several "racers" cars receive punctures, damaged rims, bodywork damage etc, but to the best of my knowledge no physical injuries.

Roll forward 12 months and after a few confrontations betweens locals and "racers" the Police and Council finally act using the powers avaiable to them and create an exclusion zone of the roads around Lakeside. Anyone can be issued with a warning to leave the area with no return permitted within 24 hours. If you are silly enough to return your car can be impounded and possibly crushed - effectively an ASBO for motorists as it was detailed in the local press.

The bottom line here is that street racing is not sensible in any circumstances and in this specific case I expect a local resident took matters into their own hands without thinking about the consequences of a car having a blow out at 80+ mph.

My sympathies to the injured parties and their families but if you own a powerful car and want to push it to the limit get on a track day.

I'm slightly confused by this and by the OP. Do the people who put the screws/nails/objects in the road to stop the racers, then get up early in the morning and retrieve them all so that they don't effect normal motorists during the day?

[otolith]

The people who were racing paid a heavy price for the risks they choose to take. Hopefully the people who planted the screws will likewise face the consequences of their actions in the form of a long custodial sentence for manslaughter.

[mrmr96]

Buzz word said:

furtive said:

Buzz word said:

I tried to look at the road on google maps but cant because of flash at work. The road is depicted on the map as a dual carridge way 'A' road. If the crash was truely at 80 and late at night I'm not even sure I think that is too silly on the face of it either. I cant see the road properly though but if that is the case I don't think thats racing even, I bet comuters do that.

It's a 40mph limit along that road

Cheers for looking, sounds strange for a dual carridge way. With that and the pic on the other page 80mph would have been going a bit quick. Infact based on that pic a entry speed of 80mph looks far too quick. Bearing in mind everyone in the car is seriously injured or worse there seems no solid evidence on the speed. Had it been 80 it would seem reckless, but no real proof.

Speed wasn't the killer.

If some moron hadn't put the spikes down then he would have made the turn and NO ONE WOULD HAVE BEEN INJURED. He didn't crash because he was speeding, he crashed because someone sabotaged the road. A comparison of his speed versus the speed limit is not relevant.

[Mr Whippy]

As someone said earlier, there is always someone who will out-retard you, if you are being a retard yourself.

If you drive like a tit, someone will take exception and ultimately you will be the one paying the ultimate price for driving like a tit if something does happen ie nails thrown into street... or you might even get caught out by your own lack of ability which may be the case here.

RIP

[furtive]

I've not seen any evidence that the screws in any way contributed to the crash

[Dupont666]

Buzz word said:

furtive said:

Buzz word said:

I tried to look at the road on google maps but cant because of flash at work. The road is depicted on the map as a dual carridge way 'A' road. If the crash was truely at 80 and late at night I'm not even sure I think that is too silly on the face of it either. I cant see the road properly though but if that is the case I don't think thats racing even, I bet comuters do that.

It's a 40mph limit along that road

Cheers for looking, sounds strange for a dual carridge way. With that and the pic on the other page 80mph would have been going a bit quick. Infact based on that pic a entry speed of 80mph looks far too quick. Bearing in mind everyone in the car is seriously injured or worse there seems no solid evidence on the speed. Had it been 80 it would seem reckless, but no real proof.

There is no real proof about the screw blowing the tyre unless they were the guys racing them, but even then its not proven until they check the car over, all they show is a screw that they have a photo of.

If that area is indeed rural I think you might want to read this:

website said:

A dual carriageway in a built up area will have a statutory speed limit of 30mph unless otherwise sign-posted. It is common for such urban dual carriageways to have an increased speed limit of 40mph. A built up road is indicated by the presence of street lights, on lit dual carriageways that are not considered to be in a built-up area, the speed limit will be clarified with intermittent signs

So that suggest it was 40mph as does the street lights.

[Munter]

mrmr96 said:

Speed wasn't the killer.

If some moron hadn't put the spikes down then he would have made the turn and NO ONE WOULD HAVE BEEN INJURED. He didn't crash because he was speeding, he crashed because someone sabotaged the road. A comparison of his speed versus the speed limit is not relevant.

You have absolutely no idea if that's actually what happened. It could be he simply arrive too fast at the "bend" and couldn't get the car around it still in control. Or a mechanical failure in the brakes, suspension etc.

What we do know is if he had been doing 40mph his car wouldn't look like that. The road furniture and design is put together with a 40 limit.

[Dr_Gonzo]

otolith said:

The people who were racing paid a heavy price for the risks they choose to take. Hopefully the people who planted the screws will likewise face the consequences of their actions in the form of a long custodial sentence for manslaughter.

But they didn't factor in the presence of screws glued to the road specifically to puncture their tyres.

[Jonny_693]

For the love of god, Even if it wasn't hollow (which it quite clearly is) it could still cause a blow out. Use your eyes FFS!

Edited by Jonny_693 on Tuesday 17th August 14:10

Edited by Jonny_693 on Tuesday 17th August 14:11

[J4CKO]

I think perhaps that there is a tendency to come down on one side or the other, this is a tragic event in which neither party is totally blameless. I dont think we need to have an outcome that goes one way or another just perhaps some lessons learnt so it doesnt happen again.

We all like fast cars, thats why we are here but even enjoyed responsibly they can be dangerous, enjoyed irresponsibly it gets more dangerous, add in some sabotage and all bets are off.

[The Wookie]

It's been implied in the original thread on the Ford forum that the screws could not be identifiable in a court of law as even partly responsible for this accident.

If one were still stuck in the disintegrated carcass of the tyre, would this still be true?

[plasticpig]

freecar said:

sleep envy said:

Davi said:

sleep envy said:

no it's not, that looks nothing like a cavity wall fixing

I agree it is a plasterboard mounting screw, but you can get hollow ones!

sure but that particular one is capped, hence why that will never act as a stinger hollow spike

It is categorically not a plasterboard fixing screw. 100% Guaranteed! It is a fixing to screw into plasterboard cavity walls (could try plasterboard stuck to blocks but would probably push plasterboard away from wall.) so that another screw can be fixed into it.

It does indeed have holes in it.

You've already been shown them in a pic on this thread.

You were wrong, suck it up.

Well if were being pedantic you are also wrong. Cavity walls are constructed from brick or some other type of masonry. What you are actually referring to is a drywall.

[otolith]

Dr_Gonzo said:

otolith said:

The people who were racing paid a heavy price for the risks they chose to take. Hopefully the people who planted the screws will likewise face the consequences of their actions in the form of a long custodial sentence for manslaughter.

But they didn't factor in the presence of screws glued to the road specifically to puncture their tyres.

Probably not - but they should have factored in the risk that something could go wrong and the result could be being killed or cabbaged.

[The Wookie]

Fact is, on the face of it there were two causes to this crash, one was driving too fast, the other was sabotage. Neither of them are justifiable.

Also what's this about the police not being able to do anything about street racing? Even though it's blatantly illegal and almost exclusively involves breaking the speed limit, arguably the easiest driving offence to detect and convict?

[TheEnd]

The Crack Fox said:

Munter said:

mrmr96 said:

Speed wasn't the killer

What we do know is if he had been doing 40mph his car wouldn't look like that. The road furniture and design is put together with a 40 limit.

Exactly !

It's coming close to blaming the BBC, as if there was something good on TV, he would have stayed in that night.

I love the way 60% of this thread is debating the screw type and name.

[Buzz word]

mrmr96 said:

Buzz word said:

furtive said:

Buzz word said:

I tried to look at the road on google maps but cant because of flash at work. The road is depicted on the map as a dual carridge way 'A' road. If the crash was truely at 80 and late at night I'm not even sure I think that is too silly on the face of it either. I cant see the road properly though but if that is the case I don't think thats racing even, I bet comuters do that.

It's a 40mph limit along that road

Cheers for looking, sounds strange for a dual carridge way. With that and the pic on the other page 80mph would have been going a bit quick. Infact based on that pic a entry speed of 80mph looks far too quick. Bearing in mind everyone in the car is seriously injured or worse there seems no solid evidence on the speed. Had it been 80 it would seem reckless, but no real proof.

Speed wasn't the killer.

If some moron hadn't put the spikes down then he would have made the turn and NO ONE WOULD HAVE BEEN INJURED. He didn't crash because he was speeding, he crashed because someone sabotaged the road. A comparison of his speed versus the speed limit is not relevant.

My initial post has been halfed but my point then was that the speed may not have been excessive so the driver may not have been reckless and therefor the use of racing was inflamatory. If the road was a 60mph 'A' road 80 could well be over the limit but not silly. Incidentally the speed would have/ did kill. The faster the car the more energy to disspiate the less chance of survival. That is true of any crash.

The plugs whilst present in another place may not have even been the cause. You don't know for a fact that those things are in the tyres. I haven't seen a shot of those plugs imbedded. Until thats proven thats a real leap of faith.

The only things we can be sure of is that there were plugs of some type on the side of the road and a car crashed. Saying the plugs are the cause is as speculative as blaming speed, skill, random component faliure, oil or a million other things.

[Mr Whippy]

The Wookie said:

It's been implied in the original thread on the Ford forum that the screws could not be identifiable in a court of law as even partly responsible for this accident.

If one were still stuck in the disintegrated carcass of the tyre, would this still be true?

If there is a case for anything except driver loss of control resulting in the accident, I'm sure the police will explore all avenues.

Assuming the tyres didn't burn or something, then the clues will be there as to why they lost control.

I would assume if the tyre blew out, there would be a long line in the road (especially from 80mph) where the alloy scraped along... so first clue to see if a tyre failed there.
If a tyre failed, they will then know which one it was, and then they can examine that tyre for cause of failure.


Obviously it's all speculation right now.



I'd say they could have just as easily spun out on some spilt oil, or just lost control by driving like idiots, or a totally random tyre failure due to many other factors.

I had two nails in tyres in the space of two weeks, and attributed it to nails on the gravel drive at work, but upon inspection the nails were a different type to those found in the gravel at work (about 50 in a space of 100 yards) So even though all the clues pointed at my works drive, it wasn't the cause of my punctures!


Dave

[otolith]

The Wookie said:

Also what's this about the police not being able to do anything about street racing? Even though it's blatantly illegal and almost exclusively involves breaking the speed limit, arguably the easiest driving offence to detect and convict?

Maybe in some cases (presumably not this one) it's a matter of "knobbing about in antisocially loud cars but not actually speeding or racing"? Lots of stories on Pistonheads of people in loud cars being gesticulated at for speeding when they weren't.

[furtive]

The Wookie said:

Fact is, on the face of it there were two causes to this crash, one was driving too fast, the other was sabotage.

There are no facts that show that sabotage was in any way involved in this crash. There is some circumstantial evidence that it might have been, but no facts. There was one cause of this crash as I see it - inappropriate excessive speed

[HundredthIdiot]

otolith said:

Probably not - but they should have factored in the risk that something could go wrong and the result could be being killed or cabbaged.

Indeed. What if some uninvolved bystander got squished in the accident? Madness.

It vaguely reminds me of this.

Reasonable people don't do this, even when pushed.

A more reasonable person at the end of their tether might have followed the participants back home and carved a comprehensive trackday calendar on to their paintwork.