DVLA vs Liquid Knight
Discussion
GeraldSmith said:
Liquid Knight said:
GeraldSmith said:
So playing devil's advocate here - how would you set up the system?
Obviously being able to do things on line would help, but there needs to be a non on-line system as well. Do you suggest that they just trust everyone? So saying 'I put it in the post' is enough. Or do you insist on recorded delivery? Or do you say 'we'll send you an acknowledgement, get in touch if you don't receive it'?
It's easy to whine about the system but how would you make it better?
Scrap it completely and start from scratch. The DVLA have had nearly a hundred years to get a system together that works and has failed. It's another quango the country doesn't need.Obviously being able to do things on line would help, but there needs to be a non on-line system as well. Do you suggest that they just trust everyone? So saying 'I put it in the post' is enough. Or do you insist on recorded delivery? Or do you say 'we'll send you an acknowledgement, get in touch if you don't receive it'?
It's easy to whine about the system but how would you make it better?
The problem is that there are only so many options:
1. Scrap licensing entirely
2. Insist on everything being done face to face at an office
3. Do what happens now, send an acknowledgement and rely on people noticing that they didn't get one.
So with a new body or the existing one you are going to have exactly the same problems unless you can think of a different way of doing it.
2. If the DVLA/Royal Mail are incapable of handling posted mail as their only forms of communications then they cannot support that as their only valid method (equally they cannot then blame you for the system failing, as proven in court!). Clearly the posted system is failing, therefore a new system must be found! Downside is cost generation/complexity.
3. Im sorry but this is a cheap get out clause for them. Whilst this looks good on the surface it relies on too many factors (people remembering, systems updating themselves correctly et cetera). As has been proven in court it is NOT the responsability of the owner to prove the DVLA have recieved the documents (and more importantly updated their systems). As far as they are concerned (legally and morally) your responsability ends at the post box in which case it is not acceptable to place further (non legal) procedures further down the line in an effort to cover up existing flaws! Whilst we can all agree that we do often check up on things it should not and is not the basis for a penalty system! You CANNOT fine other people for not "checking up" on a system that only you are responsible for.
My honest opinion is that the DVLA are either not aware of this point or choose to ignore it and rely on people caving in due to pressure or sheer frustration! The fact that people do (or indeed the argument that ........... "well its just easier so shut up and tow the line!") is not a basis for a well balanced/fair and legal system. By doing so you are effectivly endorsing an illegal/immoral system (whether you realise it or not!)
In short the only option that is valid is option 1!
acricha3 said:
1. As has been said many times on this forum scrap a road tax and incorporate it into fuel duty it is a far simpler system that taxes people in proportion to their consumption (actual fuel consumption not some arbitary banding that manufacturers try to get out of), it would immediately relegate a large portion of the DVLA's function into an existing for more able/competent/proven system (the tax/fuel duty). The beauty is that revenues would stay the same (or potentially rise) yet expenditure/overhead in collecting said revenue would reduce, exaclty what the government are looking for at the moment!
But the problem is not road tax, it's vehicle licensing. Road tax is an irrelevance in this debate, you could move that onto fuel duty but unless you get rid of the need to license vehicles the problem remains.acricha3 said:
2. If the DVLA/Royal Mail are incapable of handling posted mail as their only forms of communications then they cannot support that as their only valid method (equally they cannot then blame you for the system failing, as proven in court!). Clearly the posted system is failing, therefore a new system must be found! Downside is cost generation/complexity.
The bit there that matters is 'a new system must be found'. Yes, right, so what is it then? That is my whole point, it is easy to go on about the system that exists but what would you replace it with?acricha3 said:
3. Im sorry but this is a cheap get out clause for them. Whilst this looks good on the surface it relies on too many factors (people remembering, systems updating themselves correctly et cetera). As has been proven in court it is NOT the responsability of the owner to prove the DVLA have recieved the documents (and more importantly updated their systems). As far as they are concerned (legally and morally) your responsability ends at the post box in which case it is not acceptable to place further (non legal) procedures further down the line in an effort to cover up existing flaws! Whilst we can all agree that we do often check up on things it should not and is not the basis for a penalty system! You CANNOT fine other people for not "checking up" on a system that only you are responsible for.
It is certainly problematic, but the question remains - what else do you do?acricha3 said:
My honest opinion is that the DVLA are either not aware of this point or choose to ignore it and rely on people caving in due to pressure or sheer frustration! The fact that people do (or indeed the argument that ........... "well its just easier so shut up and tow the line!") is not a basis for a well balanced/fair and legal system. By doing so you are effectivly endorsing an illegal/immoral system (whether you realise it or not!)
I am sure that they are aware of it, but they probably can't think of a better way of doing it. That doesn't mean I support it, it is a crap system but I struggle to see a better one.acricha3 said:
In short the only option that is valid is option 1!
Except, as I've already said, road tax isn't the problem, it's the 'need' to license vehicles. ok well, i have also had a letter from the DVLA for failing to notify change of ownership. I know i sent the v5 off so refused to pay the fine, so i then got court summons for today. Went down there this morning, went up infront of the magistrates they asked me what i pleaded, i informed them Not Guilty to which theya asked why, i informed then i don't belief that the argument 'if i do not receive confirmation from them within 4 weeks then i have to chase them' has any legal basis. They then tried to expalin that there was no grey area and i am still in the wrong and basically continued to try and bully me into pleading guilty as it would cost me less e.t.c. I still refused to budge so was informed i would have to return on the 10th dec to face trial.
So this is where i am, what do you feel i should do, take a solictor or try and defend myself, and what shall my argument be?
So this is where i am, what do you feel i should do, take a solictor or try and defend myself, and what shall my argument be?
davealsolh said:
ok well, i have also had a letter from the DVLA for failing to notify change of ownership. I know i sent the v5 off so refused to pay the fine, so i then got court summons for today. Went down there this morning, went up infront of the magistrates they asked me what i pleaded, i informed them Not Guilty to which theya asked why, i informed then i don't belief that the argument 'if i do not receive confirmation from them within 4 weeks then i have to chase them' has any legal basis. They then tried to expalin that there was no grey area and i am still in the wrong and basically continued to try and bully me into pleading guilty as it would cost me less e.t.c. I still refused to budge so was informed i would have to return on the 10th dec to face trial.
So this is where i am, what do you feel i should do, take a solictor or try and defend myself, and what shall my argument be?
Interpretation Act - and get a solicitor who knows this area to make sure that the disclosure rules are properly followed so you can present your defence properly.So this is where i am, what do you feel i should do, take a solictor or try and defend myself, and what shall my argument be?
Edited by marshalla on Monday 1st November 16:58
davealsolh said:
ok well, i have also had a letter from the DVLA for failing to notify change of ownership. I know i sent the v5 off so refused to pay the fine, so i then got court summons for today. Went down there this morning, went up infront of the magistrates they asked me what i pleaded, i informed them Not Guilty to which theya asked why, i informed then i don't belief that the argument 'if i do not receive confirmation from them within 4 weeks then i have to chase them' has any legal basis. They then tried to expalin that there was no grey area and i am still in the wrong and basically continued to try and bully me into pleading guilty as it would cost me less e.t.c. I still refused to budge so was informed i would have to return on the 10th dec to face trial.
So this is where i am, what do you feel i should do, take a solictor or try and defend myself, and what shall my argument be?
See my earlier posts on exactly the same thing. Perhaps look up the two test cases about exactly this point.So this is where i am, what do you feel i should do, take a solictor or try and defend myself, and what shall my argument be?
Essentially, in each case the judge declared that the DVLA has no statutory power requiring anyone to contact them should they not receive an acknowledgment letter.
Then read this litany of DVLA cockups and their high and mighty attitude :-
http://whatconsumer.co.uk/forum/consumer-rights-te...
If al-qaeda want to do everyone a favour maybe they should send modified printers to the DVLA. Followed shortly after by the EU headquarters. Although maybe this wont work because it would save use all vast sums in tax, and I dont think that's part of their mandate.
It's not a minor issue, either. A few years back I moved house shortly after I sent off my SRN on one of my bikes, and thought no more about it. A year later I taxed it again, at the new address, and started using it.
Five years after that I got a call from HR in the bank where I work, asking why I had a county court judgement against me.
Despite the V5 being updated to my new address, the DVLA had pursued me for failing to SORN the bike at the old address, and taken me to court in absentia (again with the papers being sent to the old address), and won a judgement against me.
This is on my record now. I was just in with HR for my new job, and had to sit there and explain to them that although I am the model of financial probity, I have a judgement lodged against my name because of a DVLA cock up.
Five years after that I got a call from HR in the bank where I work, asking why I had a county court judgement against me.
Despite the V5 being updated to my new address, the DVLA had pursued me for failing to SORN the bike at the old address, and taken me to court in absentia (again with the papers being sent to the old address), and won a judgement against me.
This is on my record now. I was just in with HR for my new job, and had to sit there and explain to them that although I am the model of financial probity, I have a judgement lodged against my name because of a DVLA cock up.
About eight years ago I bought a Jap import evoII.I sent the dvla the D-reg(Japanese log book),translated D-reg, my insurance(original they don't accept copies and a cheque for about £120 (registration fee and six months V.E.D.)
It normally takes a couple of weeks so after about three weeks I give them a call.They tell me they haven't had my letter.Obviously I panic trying to get another D-reg is going to be quite tricky without speaking Japanese.
Anyway I check my bank statement and the cheque has been cashed. Another phone call to the D.V.L.A and they still deny having ever had my docs and my cheque.
I had to get my bank to get me the cheque from out of the system(took about a month) and sure enough there was a big D.V.L.A. stamp on the back.
With this evidence they finally decided they must have had my documents but lost them and did I have a spare D-reg? Which I didn't.
I did then get to speak to some manager type who was very apologetic.She told me "Someone would be getting fired over this" and she actually bodged me a log book. It was registered as a 1600cc and I think a few other details were wrong too!
It normally takes a couple of weeks so after about three weeks I give them a call.They tell me they haven't had my letter.Obviously I panic trying to get another D-reg is going to be quite tricky without speaking Japanese.
Anyway I check my bank statement and the cheque has been cashed. Another phone call to the D.V.L.A and they still deny having ever had my docs and my cheque.
I had to get my bank to get me the cheque from out of the system(took about a month) and sure enough there was a big D.V.L.A. stamp on the back.
With this evidence they finally decided they must have had my documents but lost them and did I have a spare D-reg? Which I didn't.
I did then get to speak to some manager type who was very apologetic.She told me "Someone would be getting fired over this" and she actually bodged me a log book. It was registered as a 1600cc and I think a few other details were wrong too!
Liquid Knight said:
Got the bailifs letter today. Grrrrrr! 
The "bailifs" (they're not actually bailifs, btw, just a debt collection agency unless you've already had a court hearing?) are dead easy to deal with LK.I had very similar with a car I sold (well, gave away for parts) a couple of years back. Full details are on this thread under my alias Spunkymonkey:
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthr...
It includes suggested letters to both DVLA and debt collection agencies. Basically, a debt collection agency must by law back off from an alleged debt that you're disputing because, until that debt is proved - which means a court judgment no matter WHO it is claims you owe them - it's still only an alleged debt.
Otherwise, I could PM you telling you that I want the £30k I allege you owe me and, when you (rightly) tell me to p
s off, send in the debt collectors. The DVLA and the collection agencies all know that but come in heavy on the basis that it's "not cost effective" to try for (and fail to get) the court order. They also rely on the fact that you probably don't know that and a letter threatening to come into your house and seize everything will make you pay whether you should or not. But the fact is, until they've won a court order, there is absolutely NOTHING DVLA or a DCA can do to enforce payment.
Note that I'm not a solicitor but have studied law and the line taken was with discussion and agreement from law forums which include fully qualified and practicing solicitors. All the research and the letters themselves were my own work though :P
Incidentally, while they never admitted their mistake with me, the last I heard was that they were preparing a summons. That was in about March 2009 and I've heard nothing since.
redstu said:
GeraldSmith said:
Except, as I've already said, road tax isn't the problem, it's the 'need' to license vehicles.
who has the need to license vehicles, surely it's only a need to register a keeper?Replace the road tax disc with an insurance disc ( no insurance then not registered ), oblige the insurance companies to copy all details/changes to the DVLA, which will then be able to track owner,driving license validity, vehicle, mot (when due) and any offences, particularly bans, if the details do not comply then action/police visit can be taken.
Hello
I'm Mac I live in London.
Today I've receive a letter from the repo company that I owe some money.
I phone them up and a lady told me I must pay 80 pounds because I didn't register the SORN on my moped.
I have sent to DVLA in November 2009 an export form of the v5 - I fill it out and send it to Swansea.
Since then I never heard from them until today. On 15 December 2009 I moved home few streets away - I was checking the previous address for any post for me. I never received any reminder to SORN the bike or to TAX it.
I never received confirmation that the moped has been removed from the register - I didn't know I they are sending that sort of documents.
Secondly - when I told her that I don't think it's good idea to hand over my debit card details to her before checking if this is correct - so she replied "if you'll not pay today I'll send somebody to take payment from you anyway". I told her that she can collect the money on my payday which is Friday - by this I gave myself 2 days to sort this out.
I'll block my debit card if necessary.
Do you think I should pay?
What should I do now?
I'm Mac I live in London.
Today I've receive a letter from the repo company that I owe some money.
I phone them up and a lady told me I must pay 80 pounds because I didn't register the SORN on my moped.
I have sent to DVLA in November 2009 an export form of the v5 - I fill it out and send it to Swansea.
Since then I never heard from them until today. On 15 December 2009 I moved home few streets away - I was checking the previous address for any post for me. I never received any reminder to SORN the bike or to TAX it.
I never received confirmation that the moped has been removed from the register - I didn't know I they are sending that sort of documents.
Secondly - when I told her that I don't think it's good idea to hand over my debit card details to her before checking if this is correct - so she replied "if you'll not pay today I'll send somebody to take payment from you anyway". I told her that she can collect the money on my payday which is Friday - by this I gave myself 2 days to sort this out.
I'll block my debit card if necessary.
Do you think I should pay?
What should I do now?
mcdziubek said:
Hello
I'm Mac I live in London.
Today I've receive a letter from the repo company that I owe some money.
I phone them up and a lady told me I must pay 80 pounds because I didn't register the SORN on my moped.
I have sent to DVLA in November 2009 an export form of the v5 - I fill it out and send it to Swansea.
Since then I never heard from them until today. On 15 December 2009 I moved home few streets away - I was checking the previous address for any post for me. I never received any reminder to SORN the bike or to TAX it.
I never received confirmation that the moped has been removed from the register - I didn't know I they are sending that sort of documents.
Secondly - when I told her that I don't think it's good idea to hand over my debit card details to her before checking if this is correct - so she replied "if you'll not pay today I'll send somebody to take payment from you anyway". I told her that she can collect the money on my payday which is Friday - by this I gave myself 2 days to sort this out.
I'll block my debit card if necessary.
Do you think I should pay?
What should I do now?
Don't pay a thing to anyone. They can't make you pay or send anyone round until they have a court order to do so. Threatening to do this is seriously illegal. If anyone does come round, politely invite them in for a cup of tea, call the Police from another room, report an attempted theft and don't let on. It's either a company acting unlawfully for the DVLA or a scam artist. The Police should arrest them upon arrival. Trying to obtain monies allegedly owed without a court order or fraud. Either way they should leave your home in cuffs. I'm Mac I live in London.
Today I've receive a letter from the repo company that I owe some money.
I phone them up and a lady told me I must pay 80 pounds because I didn't register the SORN on my moped.
I have sent to DVLA in November 2009 an export form of the v5 - I fill it out and send it to Swansea.
Since then I never heard from them until today. On 15 December 2009 I moved home few streets away - I was checking the previous address for any post for me. I never received any reminder to SORN the bike or to TAX it.
I never received confirmation that the moped has been removed from the register - I didn't know I they are sending that sort of documents.
Secondly - when I told her that I don't think it's good idea to hand over my debit card details to her before checking if this is correct - so she replied "if you'll not pay today I'll send somebody to take payment from you anyway". I told her that she can collect the money on my payday which is Friday - by this I gave myself 2 days to sort this out.
I'll block my debit card if necessary.
Do you think I should pay?
What should I do now?
Good luck Rob
Thnx a lot.
I've already gave my debit card details. I'm going to block my visa straight away.
I'm going to write to the dvla or maybe I should go myself? At Alexandra Road - Wimbledon there is an DVLA office, a place where you can actually talk to somebody face to face.
The thing pissed me of is not that £80 fine, the true thing that made me so mad is that they made an effort to search for me just to get the money, but they have done nothing to tell me that I should SORN the bike.
So if they had resources to find me to give me the fine so I think they could easily find me for any other reason but they didn't.
Another thing is, that I have two vehicles Jeep Cherokee and Grand Cherokee and another moped registered in my name on the current address - that's how they found me so I wonder why they didn't care to find before?
Maybe I'll write to them because if I'll go to dvla office I'll do thing or two that later I could regret... .
I've already gave my debit card details. I'm going to block my visa straight away.
I'm going to write to the dvla or maybe I should go myself? At Alexandra Road - Wimbledon there is an DVLA office, a place where you can actually talk to somebody face to face.
The thing pissed me of is not that £80 fine, the true thing that made me so mad is that they made an effort to search for me just to get the money, but they have done nothing to tell me that I should SORN the bike.
So if they had resources to find me to give me the fine so I think they could easily find me for any other reason but they didn't.
Another thing is, that I have two vehicles Jeep Cherokee and Grand Cherokee and another moped registered in my name on the current address - that's how they found me so I wonder why they didn't care to find before?
Maybe I'll write to them because if I'll go to dvla office I'll do thing or two that later I could regret... .
Strangely Brown said:
Liquid Knight said:
If anyone does come round, politely invite them in for a cup of tea
Seriously, that is really bad advice. Do not, ever, invite a bailiff or debt collector into your home, whether they have grounds for entry or not.Liquid Knight said:
Strangely Brown said:
Liquid Knight said:
If anyone does come round, politely invite them in for a cup of tea
Seriously, that is really bad advice. Do not, ever, invite a bailiff or debt collector into your home, whether they have grounds for entry or not.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff