RE: TVR's new owner: PH Meets

[Janesy B]

Is it fair to say elisek is a bit of a dhead?

[fatbutt]

Bibbs said:

Or speak to FPV. They have a v8 and an i6 Turbo which are pretty handy.

Did you hear that the 2014 Mustang will likely have independent rear suspension instead of the current solid back axle? Cheap, cheerful and plentiful.

[Bibbs]

fatbutt said:

Bibbs said:

Or speak to FPV. They have a v8 and an i6 Turbo which are pretty handy.

Did you hear that the 2014 Mustang will likely have independent rear suspension instead of the current solid back axle? Cheap, cheerful and plentiful.

I don't know why they don't just use the Falcon chassis.

Prodive bought Tickford, who were involved in the Falcon. So maybe TVR and Prodrive should team up?

FPV_Engines said:

4.0 L turbo-charged DOHC 24 valve in-line six-cylinder engine, which produces a maximum power of 310 kW (421 PS; 416 bhp) at 5500 rpm and maximum torque of 565 N·m (417 lb·ft) across the range from 1950 to 5200 rpm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Barra_engine#Bar...

FPV modified all-aluminium 315 kW 5.0-litre Harrop-supercharged V8 engine 335 kW (455 PS; 449 bhp) between 5750 - 6000 rpm and 570 N·m (420 lb·ft) between 2200 - 5500 rpm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Modular_engine#4...

[G1ABB]

LE is smart enough to figure out a viable way forward and I'm guessing he is putting together a crack management team to get some traction (no pun intended) on what appears to be a very exciting and ambitious project. The amount of money he is willing to invest in the early years combined with how well the business is managed is what matters to me as this will likely determine how good the results are. Reading blatantly between the lines he appears to have set the quality expectation too max, so bring it on, using the required amount of time to produce something quite brilliant.

[Jellinek]

[quote=Kellsboro Jack]

One of the best pieces of advice I've seen with getting the TVR brand back up and running.

quote]

Many thanks for the kind words. I actually developed a plan not too dissimilar about 3 years ago for Ginetta, based on extensive research and personal experience, but never managed to get an interview there to tout my plans!
As an aside, the parallels and links between LNT/Ginetta and LE/TVR are quite interesting. LNT historically raced TVRs (won at Le Mans I think) and had almost if not done the deal with PW when NS swooped in last minute. LNT started out in software I believe, but eventually pursued other avenues. Both are self made multi-millionaires who have ended up owning a British Sports Car company through an interest born out of racing. Should be very interesting to see how the relationship develops between the two.

[andyps]

Jellinek said:

Many thanks for the kind words. I actually developed a plan not too dissimilar about 3 years ago for Ginetta, based on extensive research and personal experience, but never managed to get an interview there to tout my plans!
As an aside, the parallels and links between LNT/Ginetta and LE/TVR are quite interesting. LNT historically raced TVRs (won at Le Mans I think) and had almost if not done the deal with PW when NS swooped in last minute. LNT started out in software I believe, but eventually pursued other avenues. Both are self made multi-millionaires who have ended up owning a British Sports Car company through an interest born out of racing. Should be very interesting to see how the relationship develops between the two.

I was at an event where LNT was the speaker recently and had quite a lengthy chat with him. He said (publicly during the talk) that he had agreed a deal with PW to purchase TVR and knew what they were going to do with it (it was obvious from his comments that PW would still be involved). Unfortunately a pesky Russian came along and offered PW substantially more money. LNT started in care homes (still the main part of his business) and got into software by developing his own software to help run the care home - his construction company is similar in that he decided he could build care homes for himself better than others could do them. Whilst he did win his class at Le Mans it was not in a TVR but a Panoz I think. He bought Ginetta partly because he hasn't managed to buy TVR I guess.

As you say, it will be interesting to see any relationship between the two.

[Jellinek]

andyps said:

...He said (publicly during the talk) that he had agreed a deal with PW to purchase TVR and knew what they were going to do with it (it was obvious from his comments that PW would still be involved). Unfortunately a pesky Russian came along and offered PW substantially more money.

Very interesting. In that case he could be planning to take the fight to TVR (I heard a rumour there was a V8 road version being worked on) or continue to focus on racing with the odd road registered version as recent form would suggest.
I'm currently re-jigging my Ginetta ideas for TVR's circumstances and as soon as LE plans are a litle clearer, I will be applying for sure. I hope to get to interview this time, I think TVR is more me to be honest. I have always been more Lambo than Lister, more Miura than MC12 if you will. Anyway, I'm hoping LE is going to like my "Halo" car...

[barchetta_boy]

I haven't read all 44 pages but there are some very interesting comments above from Jellinek and others.

What I would say is that I think TVR's prospective customers will put up with a slightly more "kit car" feel as long as this is balanced by other aspects of the experience. I'm thinking mainly of customer service: the general standard in the car industry is piss poor, and when you are selling sports cars there are endless opportunities for delighting the customer. I own a nearly-new Porsche and the experience when I go in an OPC is just... corporate.

With a bit of creative thinking and smart marketing there are loads of ways that a relaunched TVR could connect with its customers... private track days... chance to help develop the new models, access to prototypes and racing options... combine this with Lexus levels of customer service and I don't think people will car that much if the interior smells of glue or bits fall off occasionally. Owning a TVR would be like being part of a cool motorists' club.

I was chatting with Charles Morgan the other day and he agreed that most dealers (not just his) are way off the pace when it comes to CRM and marketing.

[Jellinek]

[/quote]

It was not yesterday LNT bought Ginetta... blimey, it has taken 8 years to get to this point. How long will it take TVR to get a road car available? What are the chances of the 'new' TVR company reaching LNT heights? Tomlinson is fortunate, being worth £500 million on the UK rich list he dig in his pockets if needed.

Only time can tell with Les Edgar, but it won't be quick. That's simply not possible. Good luck to him, I hope it works.

Edited by dandarez on Wednesday 12th June 11:49

[/quote]

Whilst I have the utmost respect for LNT's racing acheivements, I would say that the introduction of Ginetta's new road cars could have been handled much better. I believe it is entirely possible to bring a new road car to market within 2 years with acceptable levels of quality and acheive an order book of 50+ cars by the 3rd year.
Unfortunately, at Ginetta, I believe a number of decisions were made that delayed Launches and significantly increased the costs and quality risks. The purchase of Farbio and the tie up with Zytek (to produce bespoke engines inc an electric version) will all have diverted precious resource. Remember that the Farbio was completely re-engineered before it emerged as the Ginetta F400/G60 and the two were developed on seprate CAD systems, which I know from persoanl experience creates a whole multitude of issues.
Whilst the G40R has suffered a less turbulent conception, circumstances have not conspired to assist it in many ways. When reports of the G50 Road car were replaced by the F400, this left a gulf between Ginetta's halo car and its volume seller which is naturally going to affect the publics' perception. I believe the specification of the G40 has also not helped. As a 2 door hardtop with a psuedo road-going interior, it will have very stiff competition in the form of many mainstream sprots cars.
My understanding (from a post by the Ginetta Sales Manager on pistonheads) is that as of November 2012, only 10 cars had been sold, so whilst LE could learn alot about how to market a racing division, he should also study the mistakes of the past closely. If he does, he could have a very healthy order book in less that 3 years.

[fatbutt]

Jellinek said:

My understanding (from a post by the Ginetta Sales Manager on pistonheads) is that as of November 2012, only 10 cars had been sold, so whilst LE could learn alot about how to market a racing division, he should also study the mistakes of the past closely. If he does, he could have a very healthy order book in less that 3 years.

Geez, only 10? That's not good at all. I still think the G40 styling is what's holding sales back. A few tweaks, mainly to the front, would IMHO make all the difference.

Edited by fatbutt on Thursday 25th July 14:00

[DonkeyApple]

fatbutt said:

Jellinek said:

My understanding (from a post by the Ginetta Sales Manager on pistonheads) is that as of November 2012, only 10 cars had been sold, so whilst LE could learn alot about how to market a racing division, he should also study the mistakes of the past closely. If he does, he could have a very healthy order book in less that 3 years.

Geez, only 10? That's not good at all. I still think the G40 styling is what's holding sales back. A few tweaks, mainly to the front, would IMHO make all the difference.

Edited by fatbutt on Thursday 25th July 14:00

It's a cracking looking little car. Sadly the company displays all the signs of having no money and the product is clearly aimed at the UK demographic who has absolutely no spare money for toys.

So long as the racing keeps them afloat until times move more in their favour they should be ok. But it's folly to be building cheap products for the younger UK demographic. Commercial suicide.

[unpc]

GTRene said:

I thought I was a proper old car nerd but that's a new one on me. Utterly beautiful.

[Jellinek]

DonkeyApple said:

fatbutt said:

Jellinek said:

My understanding (from a post by the Ginetta Sales Manager on pistonheads) is that as of November 2012, only 10 cars had been sold, so whilst LE could learn alot about how to market a racing division, he should also study the mistakes of the past closely. If he does, he could have a very healthy order book in less that 3 years.

Geez, only 10? That's not good at all. I still think the G40 styling is what's holding sales back. A few tweaks, mainly to the front, would IMHO make all the difference.

Edited by fatbutt on Thursday 25th July 14:00

It's a cracking looking little car. Sadly the company displays all the signs of having no money and the product is clearly aimed at the UK demographic who has absolutely no spare money for toys.

So long as the racing keeps them afloat until times move more in their favour they should be ok. But it's folly to be building cheap products for the younger UK demographic. Commercial suicide.

I agree on the styling. It's OK for race cars, but not emotive enough for the road imho. (I think it would need a re-body more than front end tweaks).

In truth, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Ginetta's road car side didn't expand any further. I'm fairly certain there is no dedicated manager for the Road Cars at Ginetta, and that the Race Team currently look after all the Sales and Engineering support. There may be a dozen or so loss-making homolgation specials each year in the future, but there seems to be no desire to evolve the business to challenge the TVRs or Lotus' of this world. If that were true, I think the two marques (TVR and Ginetta) could co-exist quite happily together.

Edited by Jellinek on Friday 26th July 13:00

[fatbutt]

Jellinek said:

I agree on the styling. It's OK for race cars, but not emotive enough for the road imho. (I think it would need a re-body more than front end tweaks).

In truth, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Ginetta's road car side didn't expand any further. I'm fairly certain there is no dedicated manager for the Road Cars at Ginetta, and that the Race Team currently look after all the Sales and Engineering support. There may be a dozen or so loss-making homolgation specials each year in the future, but there seems to be no desire to evolve the business to challenge the TVRs or Lotus' of this world. If that were true, I think the two marques (TVR and Ginetta) could co-exist quite happily together.

Edited by Jellinek on Friday 26th July 13:00

Surely a graduate design engineer wouldn't be too expensive? Give them 3 months work experience and trade salary for bolstering their CV. 10K and the styling is 'tweaked'.

[Roo]

Jellinek said:

I agree on the styling. It's OK for race cars, but not emotive enough for the road imho. (I think it would need a re-body more than front end tweaks).

In truth, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Ginetta's road car side didn't expand any further. I'm fairly certain there is no dedicated manager for the Road Cars at Ginetta, and that the Race Team currently look after all the Sales and Engineering support. There may be a dozen or so loss-making homolgation specials each year in the future, but there seems to be no desire to evolve the business to challenge the TVRs or Lotus' of this world. If that were true, I think the two marques (TVR and Ginetta) could co-exist quite happily together.

Edited by Jellinek on Friday 26th July 13:00

Ginetta does have a sales director. As to whether that's more to do with selling race cars as opposed to road cars I don't know.

[Ozzie Osmond]

Exterior styling of mid-engined Ginetta G60 (previously Farbio) looks fine to me - but it seems savagely expensive for what it is. I can't believe these low levels of production are enough to keep sportscar companies viable. TVR better watch out.

See the Sales of Sports Cars thread,

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[ESOG]

I like what this man is saying when referring to building what the core audience desires, while still moving forward and keeping with the DNA of the company; I wish this was the new owner of Lotus. Speaking of Lotus, that Grantura is drop dead gorgeous and it reminds me of the Elite.
P.s. The Sagaris is one amazing looking machine! I wish TVR the best. It'd be so nice to see another British marque amongst Loti. And I agree 100% on his comment about a Landrover despite what year or condition still being fashionable/commanding respect.

[Jellinek]

Roo said:

Jellinek said:

I agree on the styling. It's OK for race cars, but not emotive enough for the road imho. (I think it would need a re-body more than front end tweaks).

In truth, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Ginetta's road car side didn't expand any further. I'm fairly certain there is no dedicated manager for the Road Cars at Ginetta, and that the Race Team currently look after all the Sales and Engineering support. There may be a dozen or so loss-making homolgation specials each year in the future, but there seems to be no desire to evolve the business to challenge the TVRs or Lotus' of this world. If that were true, I think the two marques (TVR and Ginetta) could co-exist quite happily together.

Edited by Jellinek on Friday 26th July 13:00

Ginetta does have a sales director. As to whether that's more to do with selling race cars as opposed to road cars I don't know.

Mike Simpson? I think his main focus is the race cars, he is a Pro race driver.

[Jellinek]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Exterior styling of mid-engined Ginetta G60 (previously Farbio) looks fine to me - but it seems savagely expensive for what it is. I can't believe these low levels of production are enough to keep sportscar companies viable. TVR better watch out.

See the Sales of Sports Cars thread,

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Interesting comments on this thread do which reinforce the importance of image. But I think it's important to remember that you can have an image based on substance and not just on marketing and spin. Ultimately the latter doesn't work in the long term because as soon as somebody buys your car, they come face to face with reality. If its an unreliable badly engineered car, they will get fed with it, they will sell it, residuals plumet, your reputation suffers and people stop buying it.

Reference the Evoque sales, Land Rover's image is a powerful sales driver, but the cars back up this image completely. The Elise was a huge success for Lotus because it wholly reflected the brand values of performance through lightweight and great handling. Lately their cars have become flabby and oversteer has given way to understeer. Bahar's plans were even more ludicrous, sweeping away these core values and ultimately alienating the existing customer base.
LE TVR can succeed, but it has to remain true to its PW era values and sort out the quality. If its a good enough looking car, it will find its way onto the walls of kids bedrooms again I'm sure and delight a whole new generation.

[Ozzie Osmond]

Jellinek said:

image based on substance and not just on marketing and spin. Ultimately the latter doesn't work in the long term because as soon as somebody buys your car, they come face to face with reality.

^^^ Totally agree.

In this regard it's notable which companies are selling cars, which companies are still in business but can't sell their cars and which companies have already gone bust.