An Impreza did a 113mph average at the TT what to do better?
Discussion
CraigyMc said:
Welshbeef said:
a 6min 11 second lap of the ring
Yes yes but there are no banana wielding kangaroo bumps on the 'ring. They only exist on the TT circuit.Using the fact the STI has done both circuits and the official times show that the IOM is nealr 18% faster.... therefore applying that logic to the GT-R's ring time would show a 123.5mph time.
And if we take the fact he could have hit 120mph had the brakes not faded then thats 25 faster.... so the GT-R would have done it in guess what.... 131.25mph. So nope it would beat the all time record of 131.578mph however any car which is faster than the GT-R certainly would.
What would be good is to see a ring time for the 627 Vitesse or a car of similar abilities
Welshbeef said:
CraigyMc said:
Welshbeef said:
a 6min 11 second lap of the ring
Yes yes but there are no banana wielding kangaroo bumps on the 'ring. They only exist on the TT circuit.Using the fact the STI has done both circuits and the official times show that the IOM is nealr 18% faster.... therefore applying that logic to the GT-R's ring time would show a 123.5mph time.
And if we take the fact he could have hit 120mph had the brakes not faded then thats 25 faster.... so the GT-R would have done it in guess what.... 131.25mph. So nope it would beat the all time record of 131.578mph however any car which is faster than the GT-R certainly would.
What would be good is to see a ring time for the 627 Vitesse or a car of similar abilities
Precisely the maths I did during this discussion back in June. The bikers told me it was rubbish for some reason or other. I can't remember what the excuse was. The same percentages even apply to bumpy hillclimbs in the channel islands. However, the TT circuit is unique apparently 
RobM77 said:
Welshbeef said:
CraigyMc said:
Welshbeef said:
a 6min 11 second lap of the ring
Yes yes but there are no banana wielding kangaroo bumps on the 'ring. They only exist on the TT circuit.Using the fact the STI has done both circuits and the official times show that the IOM is nealr 18% faster.... therefore applying that logic to the GT-R's ring time would show a 123.5mph time.
And if we take the fact he could have hit 120mph had the brakes not faded then thats 25 faster.... so the GT-R would have done it in guess what.... 131.25mph. So nope it would beat the all time record of 131.578mph however any car which is faster than the GT-R certainly would.
What would be good is to see a ring time for the 627 Vitesse or a car of similar abilities
Precisely the maths I did during this discussion back in June. The bikers told me it was rubbish for some reason or other. I can't remember what the excuse was. The same percentages even apply to bumpy hillclimbs in the channel islands. However, the TT circuit is unique apparently Welshbeef said:
CraigyMc said:
Welshbeef said:
a 6min 11 second lap of the ring
Yes yes but there are no banana wielding kangaroo bumps on the 'ring. They only exist on the TT circuit.Using the fact the STI has done both circuits and the official times show that the IOM is nealr 18% faster.... therefore applying that logic to the GT-R's ring time would show a 123.5mph time.
And if we take the fact he could have hit 120mph had the brakes not faded then thats 25 faster.... so the GT-R would have done it in guess what.... 131.25mph. So nope it would beat the all time record of 131.578mph however any car which is faster than the GT-R certainly would.
What would be good is to see a ring time for the 627 Vitesse or a car of similar abilities
I'm still of the opinion that an optimised car would still demolish the bike time of course. As has been mentioned the Impreza was on for a 120mph lap before the brakes let him down and bearing in mind the only brake mod was uprated pads IIRC it wouldn't take an outlandish upgrade to see that car hitting 120mph average.
rhinochopig said:
To be fare though Rob you know as well as I do that a car + circuit has a sweet spot, which once you hit, you're into 100ths or 10ths when it comes to improvements. So its not a simple question of 'scaling' ring times - and I'm firmly in the car > bike at the TT camp.
Hi there. I'm not sure what you mean really. Surely we're comparing these sweet spots between circuits? i.e. if a Formula Renault is 20% faster than a Formula Ford at Snetterton, then it's likely it'll be 20% plus or minus a small deviation at Silverstone too. The two main things that cause the deviation will be the ratio of straights to corners and the bumps, but we can get a handle on that by comparing the Impreza time on the TT course with its ring equivalent, and also magazine times on a circuit. The TT's high speed nature and bumps do show if you do this comparison (which I did a while back), but I believe that comparisons are still possible. Then there's your final point of course, which is just the common sense that if a humble Impreza can do the time it did, a proper ground up designed performance or track orientated car would be a hell of a lot faster.
RobM77 said:
rhinochopig said:
To be fare though Rob you know as well as I do that a car + circuit has a sweet spot, which once you hit, you're into 100ths or 10ths when it comes to improvements. So its not a simple question of 'scaling' ring times - and I'm firmly in the car > bike at the TT camp.
Hi there. I'm not sure what you mean really. Surely we're comparing these sweet spots between circuits? i.e. if a Formula Renault is 20% faster than a Formula Ford at Snetterton, then it's likely it'll be 20% plus or minus a small deviation at Silverstone too. The two main things that cause the deviation will be the ratio of straights to corners and the bumps, but we can get a handle on that by comparing the Impreza time on the TT course with its ring equivalent, and also magazine times on a circuit. The TT's high speed nature and bumps do show if you do this comparison (which I did a while back), but I believe that comparisons are still possible. Then there's your final point of course, which is just the common sense that if a humble Impreza can do the time it did, a proper ground up designed performance or track orientated car would be a hell of a lot faster.
agreed. Those are factors which will also affect the scaling deviation percentage that I mentioned. For example, a Caterham R500 is around a second a mile faster than a Yamaha R1 on a few track tests that I've read (e.g. Croft), but at the ring from what I can work out with bridge to gantry times for the R1, the R1 would be a tiny bit quicker, instead of 13 seconds slower as predicted. This is because of the R500's low top speed (~150mph) compared with the R1. 13 seconds in 8 minutes is still a fairly small variation. In our case with the TT course, the difference between a fast car and a fast car is so great that I'm sure it would outweigh this deviation.Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 23 August 16:57
rhinochopig said:
RobM77 said:
rhinochopig said:
To be fare though Rob you know as well as I do that a car + circuit has a sweet spot, which once you hit, you're into 100ths or 10ths when it comes to improvements. So its not a simple question of 'scaling' ring times - and I'm firmly in the car > bike at the TT camp.
Hi there. I'm not sure what you mean really. Surely we're comparing these sweet spots between circuits? i.e. if a Formula Renault is 20% faster than a Formula Ford at Snetterton, then it's likely it'll be 20% plus or minus a small deviation at Silverstone too. The two main things that cause the deviation will be the ratio of straights to corners and the bumps, but we can get a handle on that by comparing the Impreza time on the TT course with its ring equivalent, and also magazine times on a circuit. The TT's high speed nature and bumps do show if you do this comparison (which I did a while back), but I believe that comparisons are still possible. Then there's your final point of course, which is just the common sense that if a humble Impreza can do the time it did, a proper ground up designed performance or track orientated car would be a hell of a lot faster.
So you may only be 1-2% quicker through a certain corner, but on another corner you may be 10% quicker, but down a long straight you may be 30% quicker, hence an overall 18%, iyswim?
CraigyMc said:
RobM77 said:
agreed. Those are factors which will also affect the scaling deviation percentage that I mentioned. For example, a Caterham R500 is around a second a mile faster than a Yamaha R1 on a few track tests that I've read (e.g. Croft), but at the ring from what I can work out with bridge to gantry times for the R1, the R1 would be a tiny bit quicker, instead of 13 seconds slower as predicted. This is because of the R500's low top speed (~150mph) compared with the R1. 13 seconds in 8 minutes is still a fairly small variation. In our case with the TT course, the difference between a fast car and a fast car is so great that I'm sure it would outweigh this deviation.But, as a car is modified to approach a bikes power to weight ratio, it's absolute magnitude of power becomes very large indeed, and as Aero drag increases by the square of the speed, what you need to go very fast is lots of power. So a very powerful car, will accelerate harder at high speeds than a bike, and with downforce be able to maintain that speed, and with 4 contact patches and a lower CofG be able to stop harder from those higher speeds.
So the question, as already answered, is can a car ever approach a bikes power to weight ratio. If the answer is yes, then a car can lap the TT course faster than a bike (Because simple physics says it can corner and brake better even without downforce)
( a bike has a low frontal area, but a terrible drag coefficent, a car has the reverse (assuming it does not have massive F1 style wings etc, so the Cda's are actually suprisingly close. So say aero drag at 150mph is 180bhp for the car and 140bhp for the bike, our 600bhp/ton bike has 40bhp left to accelerate(133bhp/ton), but our 600bhp/ton car has a massive 420bhp/ton left)
So the question, as already answered, is can a car ever approach a bikes power to weight ratio. If the answer is yes, then a car can lap the TT course faster than a bike (Because simple physics says it can corner and brake better even without downforce)
( a bike has a low frontal area, but a terrible drag coefficent, a car has the reverse (assuming it does not have massive F1 style wings etc, so the Cda's are actually suprisingly close. So say aero drag at 150mph is 180bhp for the car and 140bhp for the bike, our 600bhp/ton bike has 40bhp left to accelerate(133bhp/ton), but our 600bhp/ton car has a massive 420bhp/ton left)
Welshbeef said:
Well if ou look back to the Porche 956 which in 1983 managed a 6min 11 second lap of the ring giving an average speed of 126mph.
One would imagine that nearly 30 years later firstly the equivalent would be much quicker on the exact same circuit dur to aero, tyres, suspension and of course power.
For reference at the ring
Porche 956 average speed 30 years ago 126mph
GT-R 105mph
a Nismo STI does 96mph.
FWIW I have seen an in-period photograph of Derek Bell standing next to a Rothmans 956 (962?) taken in the Isle of Man.One would imagine that nearly 30 years later firstly the equivalent would be much quicker on the exact same circuit dur to aero, tyres, suspension and of course power.
For reference at the ring
Porche 956 average speed 30 years ago 126mph
GT-R 105mph
a Nismo STI does 96mph.
I've not been able to found out what he and it was doing there, or if he did any serious driving.
SS7
fwaggie said:
And the fastest thing to be allowed to race round the TT course?
Is still a BIKE!
BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
Postulate all you like, car lovers, you're all losers!
EFA,Is still a BIKE!
BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
Postulate all you like, car lovers, you're all losers!
for example, i'm pretty sure that this:
for example would not have much trouble doing a 131mph "lap"....... ;-)
Welshbeef said:
Seem to have gone off topic here folks.
Bring it back or the thread will have to be closed.
How many times?Bring it back or the thread will have to be closed.
A properly setup bespoke race car would destroy any bike on the island. Racing comes down to grip and HP at the end of the day and you cant argue with the contact patch of cars. Having raced bikes and owned and driven plenty of fast cars its not really a surprise to me that a bike isn't going to be the fastest point to point thing, unfortunately less seasoned observers find this difficult to comprehend. Imagine a rally car with tarmac gearing that has a bit of extra compliance, that is all it would take to put this myth to bed.
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