Are modern cars becoming too.. accomplished?
Discussion
So I recently booked a range rover as a hire car and was disappointed to turn up to a 2 series grand tourer being prepared for me.. But after a week of driving, I was pleasantly surprised. It picked up very well given the smaller engine options and larger size of the thing, build quality was in my opinion very solid, and it was loaded to the eyeballs with options, from the leather, to the million-way customisable electronics. It handled extremely well for such a car and was a comfortable place to be in comfort mode. Not only that, with me trying to wring the neck out of it it still returned around 45mpg getting 600 miles or so ( I think, I' more accustomed to kms these days) from a 40 pound tank. But then it struck me, the whole experience, in a stretched, twisted way, was reminiscent of the M4 I had driven a week before. Obviously in any realm of performance you can't read too much in to that statement - but in terms of the general 'feel' of the two machines. Then I got thinking of the A45AMG that I drove some time ago, through to a boxster S, F type and even things like well equipped focuses and corollas and HSV commodores (VXR8's). It sounds mad, obviously they all drive differently, but does anyone else get the feeling that due to the general standard of cars about today, that it's starting to mean that it's difficult to come across a car that 'feels' special to drive? It's as if cars are all generally so compliant around town that you really have to push to the limits to start drawing distinctions whereas 10 years ago I could jump in something like an mx5, z4m, cayman, vantage and arrive smiling ear to ear. Guess it's just progression, but after shopping around for a change in car recently, I struggled to come across something that genuinely had the same feel of excitement or character at a moderate or fast road pace. The quality gap from a holden to a merc is at an all time low albeit still a gap, and it feels almost like around town and even on the a road hoon, cars are starting to be accomplished to the point of blandnessness. Or have I had a shandy too many?
Too Accomplishe...maybe so.
Special to drive, yes I think there are many modern cars that feel special to drive, Porsche Cayman is a good starting point. My example would be my old common as muck Fiesta ST I bought new last year. It felt special going back into it from lots of cars, new and old. Harder ride, excellent bucket seats, brilliant driving position and handling. On top of that, a map, free flowing 3" exhaust, intercooler and intake changed the car was near 240bhp and the extra sounds made it feel more special still over a standard version.
Special to drive, yes I think there are many modern cars that feel special to drive, Porsche Cayman is a good starting point. My example would be my old common as muck Fiesta ST I bought new last year. It felt special going back into it from lots of cars, new and old. Harder ride, excellent bucket seats, brilliant driving position and handling. On top of that, a map, free flowing 3" exhaust, intercooler and intake changed the car was near 240bhp and the extra sounds made it feel more special still over a standard version.
saff said:
Or have I had a shandy too many?
At 10:15am? Good work! 
Dare I mention the GT86...?
My other half has one, and every time I drive it the lack of lateral grip, the feeling through the steering wheel, the driving position etc. put a smile on my face.
Fast? Not really.
Fun? Oh yes!
I'm thinking of changing my 350Z in the new year, and so far I've only been looking at older cars...
Have to agree normal cars are not particularly fun these days. Had a loan of a golf gtid or whatever it goes by, pretty quick and had excellent grip but even in this hatch the level of grip was such that you are way over legal speeds before you can play with it a bit.
People have already mentioned above their are fun cars still out their but the problem is they are far to grippy to have fun and still keep your licence. This is why i have just bought the oldest, slowest car i have ever had, mk1 mx5 with no assists. i still have my e46 but ive hardly driven it since i got the mx5 because it is so much more fun to drive and all at speeds within the law.
Generally have use of a new generic saloon every 2/3 years for work. Noticed they are becoming much better at being an inclosed couch and gradually taking the fun out of driving for me. No feel, light steering. Generally i have to guess how much grip these have as they seem to be worse and worse at communicating what is actually happening under the wheels.
Modern cars are to accomplished for the ROAD. I live in scotland with lots of tight b roads and sometimes dont even use all the mazdas power nevermind something more powerful.
Another consequence of these near autonomous modern cars is that anybody with no ability or feel can drive them which would explain the increasing level of absolute dopes driving.
I had to reverse 500 yards up a steep hill the other day because the clown who seen me coming down decided to start heading up as i was nearly at the bottom, told them to reverse the ten feet back as i had right of way and was told, "i cant reverse". To many people on road who are a complete danger to the rest of us and these new cars are making it worse, plus these drivers wont change as the new cars teach them nothing.
People have already mentioned above their are fun cars still out their but the problem is they are far to grippy to have fun and still keep your licence. This is why i have just bought the oldest, slowest car i have ever had, mk1 mx5 with no assists. i still have my e46 but ive hardly driven it since i got the mx5 because it is so much more fun to drive and all at speeds within the law.
Generally have use of a new generic saloon every 2/3 years for work. Noticed they are becoming much better at being an inclosed couch and gradually taking the fun out of driving for me. No feel, light steering. Generally i have to guess how much grip these have as they seem to be worse and worse at communicating what is actually happening under the wheels.
Modern cars are to accomplished for the ROAD. I live in scotland with lots of tight b roads and sometimes dont even use all the mazdas power nevermind something more powerful.
Another consequence of these near autonomous modern cars is that anybody with no ability or feel can drive them which would explain the increasing level of absolute dopes driving.
I had to reverse 500 yards up a steep hill the other day because the clown who seen me coming down decided to start heading up as i was nearly at the bottom, told them to reverse the ten feet back as i had right of way and was told, "i cant reverse". To many people on road who are a complete danger to the rest of us and these new cars are making it worse, plus these drivers wont change as the new cars teach them nothing.
I tend to agree.
Modern cars are becoming more capable and arguably more homogenous than ever (despite the increasing number of niches-within-niches that manufacturers are inventing). But they're losing their character.
I think 'character' (no, not the TVR style
) in a car comes from 3 sources:-
- Aural - how the engine sounds to you in the cabin. Most modern cars are woeful here compared to their elder siblings - blame almost obligatory turbos and emissions legislation. Even where they DO sound good (F-Type, Golf-R...), often it's clearly artificially-induced or theatrically-engineered in - it doesn't feel 'natural' anymore...
- Kinesthetic - simply speaking, how it 'feels' to drive - pedal responsiveness/feedback and steering responsiveness/feedback. Here the engineers have over-egged the responsiveness - aggressive DBW throttles, ultra-quick steering and over-servo'd brakes removing the finesse from a drive - while at the same time removing the feedback element. In this regard cars ARE becoming like a computer game...
- Visual - how a car looks, both from the outside and from the driver's seat (interior ambience and look over the bonnet). Here it's mixed - some great looking cars (F-Type coupe take a bow), but some real dog's dinners. And the "view over the bonnet" typically isn't anymore - how many people can see anything of their bonnet from the driver's seat anymore?
Modern cars are becoming more capable and arguably more homogenous than ever (despite the increasing number of niches-within-niches that manufacturers are inventing). But they're losing their character.
I think 'character' (no, not the TVR style
) in a car comes from 3 sources:-- Aural - how the engine sounds to you in the cabin. Most modern cars are woeful here compared to their elder siblings - blame almost obligatory turbos and emissions legislation. Even where they DO sound good (F-Type, Golf-R...), often it's clearly artificially-induced or theatrically-engineered in - it doesn't feel 'natural' anymore...
- Kinesthetic - simply speaking, how it 'feels' to drive - pedal responsiveness/feedback and steering responsiveness/feedback. Here the engineers have over-egged the responsiveness - aggressive DBW throttles, ultra-quick steering and over-servo'd brakes removing the finesse from a drive - while at the same time removing the feedback element. In this regard cars ARE becoming like a computer game...
- Visual - how a car looks, both from the outside and from the driver's seat (interior ambience and look over the bonnet). Here it's mixed - some great looking cars (F-Type coupe take a bow), but some real dog's dinners. And the "view over the bonnet" typically isn't anymore - how many people can see anything of their bonnet from the driver's seat anymore?
havoc said:
- Visual - how a car looks, both from the outside and from the driver's seat (interior ambience and look over the bonnet). Here it's mixed - some great looking cars (F-Type coupe take a bow), but some real dog's dinners. And the "view over the bonnet" typically isn't anymore - how many people can see anything of their bonnet from the driver's seat anymore?
Good point - I have still yet to drive anything that had a cooler view from the drivers seat than an E-type I rented and drove through North Wales a couple of years ago... the visual appeal of the car from the outside wasn't bad either! This is largely irrelevant though as who can afford an E-type these days?!I might be a taking the modern car feel discussion too far as I am currently looking into changing my 1987 BMW 635csi for something older, as even at the ripe age of 28 it doesn't have enough 'character'... a combination of having a wretched auto box and being a bit too smooth and quiet. Interestingly even with the huge long bonnet it has you can't see much of it from the drivers seat (unless you raise the seat to the point that you feel like you are sitting on the car rather than in it).
Back to the point though. Modern cars, yes, too accomplished, but outside of PH what % of people really care that much about the character of the car and the thrill of the drive - very few I imagine, sadly.
I agree OP - you just don't really get properly rubbish cars anymore.
I like to think that in 15 years, we'll be able to pick up some truly amazing cars for next to nothing - cars which are leaps and bounds beyond the 15 year old cars available now. However, I'm sure everyone has thought that forever!
I like to think that in 15 years, we'll be able to pick up some truly amazing cars for next to nothing - cars which are leaps and bounds beyond the 15 year old cars available now. However, I'm sure everyone has thought that forever!
The definition of "fun" is such a tough one with new cars, I've been fortunate to own some great cars such as 996 MK1 GT3, Radicals, Ferrari 355 and a good few others. All of these put a huge smile on my face, right now though the current crop of bloated electro barges such as the current gen 996, M cars and even the 430 I drove the other day are all staggeringly impressive from a pure speed perspective but completely miss the mark for me from a driving engagement angle.
I've been working away at an old e36 m3 and having stripped out 190kgs of weight and with a bit of a tune everytime I take it out for a blast it's a complete hoot. I'm all for refinement and comfort in a luxury car but the majority of so called sports cars are simply so fast and refined that all sense of involvement has been removed until you're travelling so fast any mistake is going to result in a huge off and loads of points if anyone sees you.
Such a shame that more car makers can't go down the route of the new MX5. If Porsche or BMW did they'd be on to a winner.
I've been working away at an old e36 m3 and having stripped out 190kgs of weight and with a bit of a tune everytime I take it out for a blast it's a complete hoot. I'm all for refinement and comfort in a luxury car but the majority of so called sports cars are simply so fast and refined that all sense of involvement has been removed until you're travelling so fast any mistake is going to result in a huge off and loads of points if anyone sees you.
Such a shame that more car makers can't go down the route of the new MX5. If Porsche or BMW did they'd be on to a winner.
One of the reasons old cars
are so beguiling is that we don't have to rely on the b@stads anymore.
They weren't so much fun when they simply refused to start on cold mornings or aged you two months on a drive to Cornwall.
Having endured some of those days I rarely complain about modern cars. In fact they are mostly great.
are so beguiling is that we don't have to rely on the b@stads anymore.
They weren't so much fun when they simply refused to start on cold mornings or aged you two months on a drive to Cornwall.
Having endured some of those days I rarely complain about modern cars. In fact they are mostly great.
LordGrover said:
They make what people buy.
There are exceptions like the new MX-5 and GT86/BRZ but even PHers don't buy them - happy in their +300BHP diesel euroboxes.
Hmmmm, rhetorical point here, do they really? I think Government policy, think tanks, and design forums decide what people want, and that is the very issue in question.There are exceptions like the new MX-5 and GT86/BRZ but even PHers don't buy them - happy in their +300BHP diesel euroboxes.
Take the rush to automatics in sportscars (Paddles are automatics) do most people really want them? you can look at the massive growth in their sales sure, but also the massive drop in manufacturers making manual models but which came first?
In answer to your original point, I think people buy what is made for them.
The opening post read likes an advert, so I'll be give this thread some balance:
The 2 series Gran tourer eh? What a piece of s**t S-max white goods trash stabbing traditional BMW fans in the front of the face.
Also if you think a 2 series Gran Tourer is too accomplished, you can't drive and should be shot because clearly it's too much car for you. I can't stand driving anything less than a BMW M4 on my daily commute, as I drift around the M1.
There you go, carry on.
There may be some sarcasm in this post.
The 2 series Gran tourer eh? What a piece of s**t S-max white goods trash stabbing traditional BMW fans in the front of the face.
Also if you think a 2 series Gran Tourer is too accomplished, you can't drive and should be shot because clearly it's too much car for you. I can't stand driving anything less than a BMW M4 on my daily commute, as I drift around the M1.
There you go, carry on.
There may be some sarcasm in this post.
swisstoni said:
One of the reasons old cars
are so beguiling is that we don't have to rely on the b@stads anymore.
They weren't so much fun when they simply refused to start on cold mornings or aged you two months on a drive to Cornwall.
Having endured some of those days I rarely complain about modern cars. In fact they are mostly great.
Which is why I think 90s cars were a bit of a heyday. They were modern enough to be reliable, relatively quick and efficient, but still let the driver be in charge. In the past 10-15 years there has been a fundamental change in the philosophy of cars - the switch from mechanical to computer control. In the 90s and before, you were in charge of everything - particularly something like throttle control, where your foot was mechanically connected to the engine. Now, all your control inputs (electronic steering assistance levels, throttle inputs, to some extent brake inputs, electronic handbrakes etc, ) no longer offer a direct mechanical connection to the car. Instead your inputs are filtered through the computer to produce an approximation of what the car thinks you want, which is quite numbing, boring and rather patronising.are so beguiling is that we don't have to rely on the b@stads anymore.
They weren't so much fun when they simply refused to start on cold mornings or aged you two months on a drive to Cornwall.
Having endured some of those days I rarely complain about modern cars. In fact they are mostly great.
As for what people want, cars have been like this for approaching a decade, and we've started getting comments swearing DBW lag is non-existent, and steering feel is something made up by car journalists… But then, for the majority, the self-driving car can't come soon enough. Before the self-driving car arrives though, I think a car can be 'too good' when the driver no longer thinks he has to pay attention and can check his phone because lane-departure/radar cruise control/auto-braking can drive the car for him.
it is easy to forget how mediocre and unreliable cars used to be. The dreaded choke, too much and you flooded the engine, too little and you drained the battery, masterbate it and you might get started. Heaters that felt like a sparrow being starved of breath. Ice on the inside and outside of the window with just a C90 cassette box to get it off with. Little or no crash protection. Washer pipes that froze up so you could not drive unless you had you head out the window.
It is a minor miracle that automotive engineers have managed to continue along the path of increased sophistication, increased reliability, better performance and relatively little change in price for so long.
99% of the time I am happy that cars have "less character" and are more accomplished because that means the day to day business of driving becomes easier and less stressful. However...
Sometimes though I miss the times when a toothbrush was just a toothbrush rather than a device that engineers, product designers and marketing people have spent millions of hours on to make it just so perfect. They nowhave the sophistication of the USS Enterprise. Very accomplished they are.
The demise of analogue in favour of a digitial world perhaps.
Engineers now tune exhausts to make them sound "characterful". With less and less room for differentiation because of comptetition, legisliation, cost etc, the accomplishements the irony is that the three horsemen of the apocolypse spend even more time sifing over every millimetre in order to bring character to cars. Piping in a synthesised sound from the engine, tuning exhausts and the like would have Enzo Ferrari administering a series of punches and Italian expletives. Their engineering was beautiful, because it was beauitful it worked. Consumer and journos are now obessed with noise but it is a sign that cars are too acomplished if your needs are more than satisfying the needs of daily driving.
Each new devise is added to tempt the customer but rarely askes the question "does he need it" They do it because that is what consumerism demands, continuous improvement.
I have a Ducati 996. It is uncomfortable, impractical and full of character. It does however make me grin from ear to ear, I actually love it and it is achingly beautiful. It is not too accomplished. But I do not use it daily.
It is a minor miracle that automotive engineers have managed to continue along the path of increased sophistication, increased reliability, better performance and relatively little change in price for so long.
99% of the time I am happy that cars have "less character" and are more accomplished because that means the day to day business of driving becomes easier and less stressful. However...
Sometimes though I miss the times when a toothbrush was just a toothbrush rather than a device that engineers, product designers and marketing people have spent millions of hours on to make it just so perfect. They nowhave the sophistication of the USS Enterprise. Very accomplished they are.
The demise of analogue in favour of a digitial world perhaps.
Engineers now tune exhausts to make them sound "characterful". With less and less room for differentiation because of comptetition, legisliation, cost etc, the accomplishements the irony is that the three horsemen of the apocolypse spend even more time sifing over every millimetre in order to bring character to cars. Piping in a synthesised sound from the engine, tuning exhausts and the like would have Enzo Ferrari administering a series of punches and Italian expletives. Their engineering was beautiful, because it was beauitful it worked. Consumer and journos are now obessed with noise but it is a sign that cars are too acomplished if your needs are more than satisfying the needs of daily driving.
Each new devise is added to tempt the customer but rarely askes the question "does he need it" They do it because that is what consumerism demands, continuous improvement.
I have a Ducati 996. It is uncomfortable, impractical and full of character. It does however make me grin from ear to ear, I actually love it and it is achingly beautiful. It is not too accomplished. But I do not use it daily.
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