Forget steering feel....whatever happened to brake feel?

[RacerMike]

So, all this discussion about steering feel has made me think about another control you interact with every day which seems to have been forgotten about. The middle (or left in an increasing number of cases!) pedal.

Having a go in an Evora a few months ago, really highlighted to me how little feel modern brake pedals have. Why is it that every manufacturer these days seems so desparate to mimic the overassisted feel of VW/Audi's products?

So, opinions? Does it really matter? Should we start a petition to teach the motor industry what everyone really wants? Does anyone actually care? :P Is there anything still out there that has great pedal feel?

[cuprabob]

I think the reason VAG products are over assisted as the brakes on their cars in the 80s and 90s were under assisted and bordering on damn right dangerous IMO and now they over compensate.

[Codswallop]

Most non-enthusiast drivers appear to mistake over-servoed brakes for powerful brakes. Just like they seem to believe that a sudden swell of turbo charged torque makes their small diesel eurobox faster than a car with a more linear power delivery.

The manufacturers are building what the majority of people like, rather than what the keen driver prefers.

[kambites]

Our Skoda is awful - I find it really hard to judge the brake pressure accurately and there's no way I could heal and toe in the thing.

The Elise is a little on the spongy side but still better than anything servo assisted that I've driven. With some slightly less springy hoses it'd be about perfect, I think.

[interloper]

cuprabob said:

I think the reason VAG products are over assisted as the brakes on their cars in the 80s and 90s were under assisted and bordering on damn right dangerous IMO and now they over compensate.

Dangerously under assited? Really? My own personal cars are/were all from the eighties and Nineties (for instance, mk2 golf, Ford Sierra, Porsche 944, Alfa 164, Citreon ZX, BMW 5 series E28, 94 Celica). For comparison I also drive modern cars, vans and the odd 7.5 tonner at work. I have never driven an eighties or Nineties car and thought the brakes are under assisted but some of the modern stuff is stupidly over the top.

To be fair earlier stuff like drum braked minis (a design going back to the late fifties!) felt a bit under whelming but these didnt have servos!

[Rawwr]

kambites said:

Our Skoda is awful - I find it really hard to judge the brake pressure accurately and there's no way I could heal and toe in the thing.

The Elise is a little on the spongy side but still better than anything servo assisted that I've driven. With some slightly less springy hoses it'd be about perfect, I think.

I fondly remember after 2 years of solely driving Elises, jumping into a Golf and then performing an emergency stop when I only intended to slow down a little.

[cuprabob]

interloper said:

Dangerously under assited? Really? My own personal cars are/were all from the eighties and Nineties (for instance, mk2 golf, Ford Sierra, Porsche 944, Alfa 164, Citreon ZX, BMW 5 series E28, 94 Celica). For comparison I also drive modern cars, vans and the odd 7.5 tonner at work. I have never driven an eighties or Nineties car and thought the brakes are under assisted but some of the modern stuff is stupidly over the top.

To be fair earlier stuff like drum braked minis (a design going back to the late fifties!) felt a bit under whelming but these didnt have servos!

Specifically I'm referring to the MK1 Golf GTI and the Polo that looked like a hearse. The latter didn't even have a servo.

[kambites]

cuprabob said:

Specifically I'm referring to the MK1 Golf GTI and the Polo that looked like a hearse. The latter didn't even have a servo.

From what I remember, the braking system in RHD mk1 and mk2 Golfs was appalling because the linkage they used to connect the pedals on the right to the master cylinders on the left was rubbish. Nothing to do with level of assistance as such.

LHD ones were fine.

[Asterix]

Daily drive is a Porsche - get in anything else and I seem to try and put myself through the windscreen at every opportunity.

Why is everything so over-servoed?

[Motorrad]

My BMW motorcycle has servo assisted brakes- the rear is so unbelievably grabby that it's difficult to maneuver at low speeds.

Conversely my Mustang has great pedal feel, the only problem is it feels like the brake setup belongs to a car some hundreds of kilos lighter.

Best brake feel I've ever had in a car was either my 996 or the Integrale with braided hoses. There is a massive improvement to be had feel wise with aftermarket hoses.

[englisharcher]

Test driving an Insignia a few weeks ago, I almost sent myself and the salesman through the windscreen a few times until I got used to them.

I still prefer cars with no power steering though, so maybe I'm old fashioned.

[HeatonNorris]

kambites said:

Our Skoda is awful - I find it really hard to judge the brake pressure accurately and there's no way I could heal and toe in the thing.

You couldn't anyway, as the fuelling is cut on most modern cars once you hit the brake pedal.

I swap between cars regularly and don't have any problems adjusting to different levels of assistance.

[m444ttb]

My wife's mk2 Focus ST is very 'sharp' on the brakes. They have reasonable stopping power ultimately but feel quite on / off to me. Takes me longer to adjust to them from my BMW e36 than from that to my unassisted Westfield. Speaking of which the day I picked that up I drive for 90 mins before giving my wife back her car. First time I needed to touch the brakes in the Westfield I thought I was going to rear end the car in front!

[A900ss]

This thread is very true.

I recently got a new 5 series and was complaining to my wife it takes a big push on the pedal to stop the car. The truth is I have been driving over-assisted cars for too long.