Teachers get paid tooooooo much

[david010167]

Its not me. Its my other half and some of her friends. They are all London area teachers and in the less pleasent areas. They sometimes see and have to deal with stuff I would not quite cope with, it gets to me sometimes hearing about what some so called mature adults have done to there children. However when they reach one of the children that has had a problem, the joy on the teachers faces is wonderful. And Like nursing its a hard, badly paid job, but they have moments of joy.

I guess I was a little annoyed with thinks todo hence my comments, so I am sorry if I offended anyone, but I do not believe a lot of people understand exactly the environment some teachers work in.

JonRB said:

david010167 said: Whilst I am calming down a bit, let me give you a bit more info an how easy it is being a teacher. (scary stuff snipped for brevity) And people ask me why I believe in private fee-paying education? I would gladly sell every car I own and drive a 1985 Nissan Micra if that was what was necessary to keep my step-son in private education and out of a school environment like that. (You have my greatest respect for sticking with it, by the way)

[dom_911]

People may think that teachers are underpaid, but compared to what? Just cos you work in the private sector, as a software engineer for example, doesn't mean that you get paid lots of cash - it's the exception and not the rule to earn loads.

Private sector workers also have to put the hours in because you wont last long if you keep missing the deadlines or saying '...oohhh, that code was a bit harder than I thought...and hence took me an extra three days, but I'm sure the customer won't mind'.

You also get the usual crap private sector holidays holidays, probably next to zero if you are contracting etc. AND all the shit comes from your boss instead of the kids. Plus you don't have a nice pension and early retirement to look forward to.

Most people hate their frickin job. No one sector is particularly hard done by.

[smeagol]

MilnerR said:

What i'm saying is that a lot of people get poor degree results and end up going into teaching out of desperation; which in such a difficult job is not the right motivation.

In the old days when teaching was less stressful I would agree but nowdays it certainly isn't. Very few teachers I have met do it out of desperation. It tends to be the older ones that say "I can't get a job elsewhere" the younger tend to be keen on the actual job. The stress levels are that high that if you didn't like the job you'd quit and do something with even less money. Hey thats what I did! I quit to become self-employed and made a success out of it, but I found I missed teaching and thats why I am returning. (there are other reasons as well such as my business can keep running without that much time needed, and that I have more control over the department)

The old saying "those that can't..... teach" is b*ll*cks.

[smeagol]

dom_911 said:

People may think that teachers are underpaid, but compared to what? Just cos you work in the private sector, as a software engineer for example, doesn't mean that you get paid lots of cash - it's the exception and not the rule to earn loads.

Not true. I have friends that work in this field and they ALL get paid more than I do. Certainly considering the hours and responsibility.

dom_911 said:

Private sector workers also have to put the hours in because you wont last long if you keep missing the deadlines or saying '...oohhh, that code was a bit harder than I thought...and hence took me an extra three days, but I'm sure the customer won't mind'.

But you are not expected to work beyond normal hours as a norm. In teaching you are the official contact time for teachers is 1265, however teachers put a lot more hours than that. I have worked in the private sector, yes you get panic stations but quite often you get very lax times as well.

dom_911 said:

You also get the usual crap private sector holidays holidays, probably next to zero if you are contracting etc. AND all the shit comes from your boss instead of the kids. Plus you don't have a nice pension and early retirement to look forward to.

Yes like my uncle poor soul, had to retire at 50 due to having too much money (worked in insurance). Contracting gives you holidays you want ie you say you are unavailble at certain times. Equally if you put in the money you could retire early and early retirement certainly happens in the private sector.

Shit from your boss NOTHING come near what you get from a class of teenagers. If your boss did what some kids have done/tried to do to me they would be in court. I'll bet you've never been threatened with a stick by your boss! When was the last time you pulled apart/jumped between two fighting bosses that were bigger than you? Plus we get the usual shit from the govt, ofstead, examination boards and our own boses. We have very rigid deadlines as well, if we don't get it done the kids don't get the results. No, Dom, I don't think you have any idea of the kind of abuse/shit you can get as a teacher.

dom_911 said:

Most people hate their frickin job. No one sector is particularly hard done by.

I like the job thats why I do it. If I didn't I'd walk out. BUT just beacuse I like it doesn't mean that I should be paid less for the kind of responsibility I take on.

>> Edited by smeagol on Tuesday 15th July 14:31

>> Edited by smeagol on Tuesday 15th July 14:38

[dom_911]

It doesn't matter whether ALL your friends get paid more than you do, most software engineers earn around the mid-twenties. Go and check the 'average salary/what you should be earning' sites if you don't think that this is correct.

Responsibility: I doubt you would be very employable if you cost you last company a multi-million pound contract.

I am expected to work the hours that it takes to get the job done and more often than not that entails working far more hours than I am contracted to. My last contract was for a University and that plainly stated that your hours were XX per week, but that you had to work the hours required to get the job done. i.e. 100 hours if that is what it took.

You also get lax times with teaching, i.e. the summer holidays? I can't believe that the kids are off for 6 or more weeks and the teachers are still working 12 hour days?

I doubt it says in your contract that you must risk your own neck to break up a fight between two people that are possibly larger than yourself? If they are kicking the shit out of each other, why should you split them up? One of the is probably the lippy fcuker that threatened you with a stick earlier.

Well if there are more people applying for the jobs than there are positions, why should market forces not apply and the salaries be kept at a lower rate?

I also thought that it was common place for teachers to retire at 50 or 55?

[david010167]

Well said, that seems to the main reason for most teachers I know.

smeagol said:

I like the job thats why I do it. If I didn't I'd walk out. BUT just beacuse I like it doesn't mean that I should be paid less for the kind of responsibility I take on. >> Edited by smeagol on Tuesday 15th July 14:31 >> Edited by smeagol on Tuesday 15th July 14:38

[david010167]

They proberbly retire at 50 because they have had enough at that stage, but that is conjecture on my behalf as I only know teachers in the first 5-7 years of teaching.

I think you will find, that you do have to seperate the children, as they are in your care, and the responcibility is yours, and if you did not I guess you could get sued or dismissed if something bad happened.

dom_911 said:

I doubt it says in your contract that you must risk your own neck to break up a fight between two people that are possibly larger than yourself? If they are kicking the shit out of each other, why should you split them up? One of the is probably the lippy fcuker that threatened you with a stick earlier. I also thought that it was common place for teachers to retire at 50 or 55?

[smeagol]

dom_911 said:

It doesn't matter whether ALL your friends get paid more than you do, most software engineers earn around the mid-twenties. Go and check the 'average salary/what you should be earning' sites if you don't think that this is correct.

You're right most software engineers earn mid-twenties and an average 40 hour week, whereas teachers earen on average low to mid twenties for a 65 hour week. Your point is.....? The other point is that my friends are my age. Its okay taking the average but when you actually look at wages increase over time I think you'll find that teachers start at about average and stay there where as IT professionals don't.

dom_911 said:

Responsibility: I doubt you would be very employable if you cost you last company a multi-million pound contract.

I'm sure your not, but I bet the wages match that responsibility. Don't forget I'm responsible (partly) for 1300 students IT futures. I cock it up and I'm out of a job. Plus I manage a budget and am partly responsible for the school spending.

dom_911 said:

I am expected to work the hours that it takes to get the job done and more often than not that entails working far more hours than I am contracted to. My last contract was for a University and that plainly stated that your hours were XX per week, but that you had to work the hours required to get the job done. i.e. 100 hours if that is what it took.

If you underestimate the time then there you go, however with a teacher the workload is such that to keep up you have to work beyond the norm.

dom_911 said:

You also get lax times with teaching, i.e. the summer holidays? I can't believe that the kids are off for 6 or more weeks and the teachers are still working 12 hour days?

err thats the holiday I'm talking about during your work hours. I know contractors and IT professionals that say suich things as "not got that much to do today". No we don't work 12hours per day during holidays (although we still do some work) but during term time we certainly do. When was the last time on your holiday you boss rang and said come in the lab needs redoing. I'd put money on you'd get the holiday back.

dom_911 said:

I doubt it says in your contract that you must risk your own neck to break up a fight between two people that are possibly larger than yourself? If they are kicking the shit out of each other, why should you split them up? One of the is probably the lippy fcuker that threatened you with a stick earlier.

Sorry Dom you're wrong. It's called loco-parentis and yes we do have to risk our own lives within reason to save the kids. We are classed as responsible parents for the time they are in school and that includes if necessary breaking up fights, protecting children and the like. Yes its in our contract.

dom_911 said:

Well if there are more people applying for the jobs than there are positions, why should market forces not apply and the salaries be kept at a lower rate?

ehhh? Theres a shortage of teachers not a surplus market forces would mean that wages would go up. That and the fact that schools do not have the finaces to be able to afford more teachers due to budget reductions.

dom_911 said:

I also thought that it was common place for teachers to retire at 50 or 55?

Not really my experience is teachers tend to retire at 60. Or leave the profession for a "retirement job" until they get their teacher pension. For example, a maths teacher I knew "retired" and became a postman. It was only when we had the massive teacher reductions that people actually took early retirement.

>> Edited by smeagol on Tuesday 15th July 15:19

[dave_s13]

Dom_911 you obviously know eff all about the teaching profession, it really isn't all milk and honey, far from it in fact.

I'm marrying a teacher in 3 weeks and heres whats bad about her job:-

- Pay isn't what it should be
- Working conditions can range from fair to abismal
- High levels of responsibility
- Lack of recognition from society in general that teaching is a 'professional' prefession
- Underfunded under staffed
- Wrapped up in red tape to the point of suffocation (OFSTED etc... never seen my GF so stressed)
- Long and antisocial working hours
- Holiday companies have you over a barrell, typical 2 week break can cost double in the school hols.

There's probably more.....

She still goes back though, we need to eat of course but I think the main reason is that she loves the kids (most of em) and gets a great deal of satisfaction out of providing them with the opportunity to learn or experience something new.

I still think there should be a mechanism for rewarding the 'good' teachers though, there's a lot that just tow the line and cause more hassle and stress for those around them.

[AllTorque]

So Dave, up to anything in 3 weeks time

[smeagol]

dave_s13 said:

I still think there should be a mechanism for rewarding the 'good' teachers though, there's a lot that just tow the line and cause more hassle and stress for those around them.

quite agree, there are sh*te teachers and I for one would love to see them out of the profession or trained better and the better teachers paid more. A sh*t teacher can do a wealth of damage to our profession, ranging from feeding the "teachers have an easy life" myth to just ruining some students prospects.

[GT2man-2]

I think as far as working in the public sector goes, teachers do quite well out of it.

[dave_s13]

AllTorque said:

So Dave, up to anything in 3 weeks time

Yeah, I'm getting married

To illustrate one of the points above; our 2 week honeymoon in Crete is costing just over £2500!!!! But there's fuk all you can do about it, can't bloody wait though I haven't been on holiday for 2.5 years

>> Edited by dave_s13 on Tuesday 15th July 15:42

[david010167]

Thats the other issue, when you are a teacher or are with a teacher you can only take holiday at peak holiday times, and that costs more. Not ideal in my book.

David

dave_s13 said:

AllTorque said: So Dave, up to anything in 3 weeks time Yeah, I'm getting married To illustrate one of the points above; our 2 week honeymoon in Crete is costing just over £2500!!!! But there's fuk all you can do about it, can't bloody wait though I haven't been on holiday for 2.5 years >> Edited by dave_s13 on Tuesday 15th July 15:42

[CarZee]

Just to throw somwe fuel on this fire....

www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-747061,00.html

The Times said:

Strictly for pleasure: the head who stole £½m A TYRANNICAL headmistress milked £500,000 from school funds to spend on designer clothes and foreign holidays while forcing staff to clean their own classrooms with J-cloths. Colleen McCabe, a former nun described by one former colleague as a female version of Saddam Hussein, faces a lengthy prison sentence after her reign of terror and extravagance was exposed at Southwark Crown Court. For eight years the principal of St John Rigby Roman Catholic College in West Wickham, southeast London, spent the school’s money on 90 pairs of shoes, Gucci jewellery, expensive restaurants, trips on the Orient Express and holidays in the Mediterranean. While pupils struggled to study in a barren library and the school stayed unheated all one winter, the headmistress filled her office with fresh flowers and skipped school to have her hair highlighted and false fingernails fitted on Friday afternoons. After a jury of four women and eight men unanimously found her guilty of 11 sample counts of theft and six of deception, the 50-year-old headmistress gasped and trembled in the dock. Former colleagues, explaining how McCabe’s spending on the school Barclaycard went unchecked and unchallenged for so long, described her as “manipulative” and “power-mad”, a woman who concealed her corruption behind a “reign of terror”. One former staff member said: “She was evil. It was almost anarchy there. She used people, bent them to her will. Those who resisted found their lives hell. I’m sure she could teach the KGB a thing or two.” McCabe joined the 1,100- pupil comprehensive school as senior mistress in 1989 after 15 years as a nun in Birmingham. Within five years she had succumbed to the lure of the school’s Barclaycard after ascending to the position of headmistress in 1991. Detective Sergeant Richard Ward, praised in court for his part in compiling an exhaustive dossier of McCabe’s spending, said that the principal first “turned her back on decency, her profession and those that relied on her for an education” in December 1994. On a visit to a branch of Clarks Shoes, McCabe spent £98.98 of school money on footwear. It kick-started a display of greed that “would have made Imelda Marcos proud”, the court was told. In the next five years she bought 90 pairs of shoes at a cost of £7,278.30p. As auditors at Bromley Borough Council belatedly discovered, the headmistress soon diversified. She “hammered” the school Barclaycard, spending £1,500 on tickets and champagne for Saturday Night Fever and other London musicals. She ran up an £836.25 bill dining at the Hilton restaurant, spent £377.30 in one trip to Tesco, and paid £112.91 for a pair of sunglasses, £500 for dental treatment and £423 on cosmetics and “dog treats”. On one day alone, £10,000 left the school’s accounts. “Quite a haul for 24 hours,” Andrew Wilcken, for the prosecution, said. “This was theft on a grand scale.” She appeared incapable of saying “No” to clothes that fitted her. Her collection of size 22-28 designs cost a fortune and would have filled several wardrobes. There was even a “string-bottomed bikini”, according to one of the receipts recovered by auditors. The skimpy beachwear led to courtroom laughter at one stage. Andrew Pert, who was Bromley council’s chief auditor at the time, recalled that the headmistress had insisted that much of the clothing she bought was for pupils to make a good impression during work experience fortnights and at job interviews. This prompted Mr Wilcken to turn to the jury and remark: “What about a string-bottomed bikini, a net-cut nylon bikini and a translucent handbag? Can you imagine what sort of interview a child may wish to obtain with that?” In another “blatant display of profligacy”, before Christmas 1997, she “hammered” her Barclaycard, Mr Wilcken said. More than £1,500 was spent on two visits to a “favourite watering hole”: the Monte Carlo restaurant, in Sevenoaks, Kent. As the shopaholic headmistress cruised into school in a luxurious Lexus car, pupils and teachers were suffering from her misuse of school money. During the winter of 1996-97 the boiler broke and was not repaired. Teachers and children shivered in their coats in classrooms all winter. In summer, McCabe made regular trips to the Mediterranean island of Gozo, where she spent £4,400 on one trip. With the library virtually empty of books and the school in a state of disrepair, onsite accommodation was infested with rats, according to one teacher. One day, staff found J-cloths and bottles of Mr Muscle cleaner wedged in their pigeonholes: part of the headmistress’s money-saving scheme to get the teachers to clean their own classrooms. Dan Tranter, 61, a former deputy head, likened her to a “female version of Saddam Hussein. If you got in her way she would destroy you,” he said. “She was a despot and under her reign of tyranny and intimidation what was once a thriving school suffered immeasurably. People went in absolute fear of her. She brooked no opposition.” McCabe divided to rule. According to one former colleague, 26 teachers left in one year. While some teachers were “reduced to tears” by the headmistress’s tactics, others, “her coterie, a clique of power-hungry travellers”, were rewarded from school funds. Bromley council calculated that the chairman of the school governors, Canon John Watts, enjoyed £27,875 of benefits from McCabe, including a £1,852 trip to the Middle East and a Crystal Palace season ticket. Father Richard Plunkett, the college chaplain who accompanied McCabe on three all-expenses-paid holidays to Malta, reaped rewards worth £34,200, according to the council. The Diocese of Southwark agreed to pay £29,183 back to the council. Father Plunkett told the court that he never suspected that his holidays were courtesy of the school. “It would be like me using church money to pay for a trip to Butlin’s,” he said. McCabe sought to blame her former friend, Maureen Stapley, the school bursar, who was cleared of six allegations of deception. Judge Christopher Elwen said that Mrs Stapley, 41, suffered damage to her mental and physical health because of McCabe’s “vindictiveness”. It emerged that the bursar never saw statements for school bank accounts or the corporate credit cards. The prosecution said that there were almost no “appropriate” financial controls and there were also “noticeable” shortcomings by the auditors, who had disregarded the basic principles of accounting. It was only when the school moved from grant-maintained to voluntary status that McCabe’s school-funded spending spree came to light. Bromley education authority became responsible for the school’s funding and, in November 1999, told the headmistress that auditors would be inspecting records. McCabe panicked and cancelled her school Barclaycard. But it was too late, and the auditors began their trawl through the receipts that told the tale of her greed and corruption. Judge Elwen said: “Prison, and for some considerable period, is inevitable for this really disgraceful breach of trust, particularly in light of the manner in which you conducted your defence and the effect you have had on the lives of others.”

[granville]

I think the inevitable problem facing any state education system, indeed, any state-run service generally, is the precise quantification of 'what somebody's worth?' - in a relatively non-market driven environment.

After all, is a fireman's life not worth a paltry £30k - surely even £60k for the price of one's son or daughter, spouse or such like? Or what about the armed forces - is the price of our freedom and liberty to be measured by the sacrifice of their lives, potentially - for generally modest levels of pure financial remuneration?

Of course, we can bandy swords all day with reference to varying amounts of job security and argue loudly and with much conviction and experience about the realtive merits, pressures, genral stresses and overal worth of job A in the public domain and role B in the strictly commercial sector.

It is an almost unfathomable problem but for the record, here's my two penneth.

I actually know a number of elbow pad merchants; indeed, a dear aunt and uncle have for years brandished their Grauniadistic dogma in my general direction every time I've alighted chez-lui, brandishing my latest copy of Combat 18's summer ware catalogue and basically having a damn fine argumentative thrash.

I have immense respect for the profession and some of my fondest lessons in life have been dealt me by both the fascinating pearls of wisdom from in one case, a genius Oxbridge scholar of a late 1970's Mastermind finalist historian and elsewhere, the thick end of the games master's leathery sole. And by God, I think it made me a fundamentally, vaguely balanced contributor to the Isle Scepterato.

What all right minded moulders of the enfants terribles tell me they need, time after time after time - is the simple ability to kick the living sh1t out of their errant urchin audience.

Thrash the little toe rags whilst they're nice and young and the rest comes naturally. And yes, I'm quite serious.

What was the saying, "Spare the rod and spoil the child?" I know, I know: it's a societal issue but as someone's said earlier, kids do (should!) spend a lot of formative time at school and frankly, the teacher should resemble the Pink Floyd hammer-meister rather than Jilly Wimp and the emasculated staff room of frazzled nerve chain smokers.

Give the teachers their balls back and oh yeah - are you listening, Mr.Edoocashan Minista? Shove those targets straight in your bottom.

I think common sense discipline, headministerial authoritarianism and a complete removal of short-arse, time-wating red tape-esque target related bullsh1t will restore much faith within the profession.

Then, with the general level of job security (for all but the most obviously dire staff) and the admittedly not too shabby hols regime, I think the remuneration becomes less of an issue and we can concentrate on turning out a legion of Bessemers, Brunels, Newtons and Stevensons.

And restore the majesty of Albion once more.

Hurrah!

>> Edited by derestrictor on Wednesday 16th July 10:59

[GregE240]

Well said DeR. So its those sports jacket donned teachers to blame for your grasp of the English language? Bastards!

Agree wholeheartedly - discipline was rigorously upheld in the grammar school I attended. Christ, the teachers even had pet names for their respective offensive weapons. Most feared was the biology teachers metal ruler - "Sting". Doubtless in this nanny-orientated school culture these days he'd get banged up for use of it.

Thing is though, it worked - we were scared shitless of him. Silence reigned in Colliers' class.

Dunlop Green Flash made excellent weapons of punishment too, as well as reasonable gym shoes.

The only thing I disagree with in your othersie excellent post is your comparison to the teacher in the Pink Floyd video - surely the lyrics upheld "leaving them kids alone?"

No. BRING BACK CORPORAL PUNISHMENT!

[granville]

GregE240 said:

Agree wholeheartedly - discipline was rigorously upheld in the grammar school I attended. Christ, the teachers even had pet names for their respective offensive weapons. Most feared was the biology teachers metal ruler - "Sting". Doubtless in this nanny-orientated school culture these days he'd get banged up for use of it. Thing is though, it worked - we were scared shitless of him. Silence reigned in Colliers' class. Dunlop Green Flash made excellent weapons of punishment too, as well as reasonable gym shoes. The only thing I disagree with in your othersie excellent post is your comparison to the teacher in the Pink Floyd video - surely the lyrics upheld "leaving them kids alone?" No. BRING BACK CORPORAL PUNISHMENT!

Cheers Greg, great stuff!

The ref to the Pink Floyd cartoon character was support not of the hypocritical lyrics (I mean for God's sake - Nick Mason - how conservative can you get?), more the actual representation of precisely what Waters & Co were chastising.

Bravo, mein petit Zymol Schleppenhauser!

[ian d]

we used to get the "scud" in scotland. which is now banned. for those who don't know what that is, it is a leather strap (belt) about 2 ft long, 3 inches wide and 1/4 inch thick which was stroked across your hands at about 30 mph to keep the urchins in line.

yep i got it a couple of times, but i can now read and write, count and have 2 engineering degrees, so i think it worked.

today half the kids can't do the simple RRRs. hmmm

[victormeldrew]

DeRestrictor

Bravo!