A Morris Minor...
Discussion
Ok, so here goes.
I have been assigned the task of making a relative's 1953 Morris Minor Series II four-door saloon into a sporty road car, fully capable in today's traffic.
We're gonna stiffen the shell up quite a bit, then install four decent bucket seats. The rear suspension will also have to be updated as the stock axle is weaker than watered-down Budweiser. This is not the issue, however.
The problem is propulsion.
Talking with him, I've decided that he wants about 100-140 horsepower, with a "get gone" button to unleash just under 200, either by temporarily raising turbo boost or by activating a nitrous-oxide system. Alternatively, a 50-70 horsepower diesel could be fitted, with propane injection to give him 50% extra when necessary. What he wants is relaxed cruising at 80 miles per hour; this means a torquey, understressed engine turning under 3500 RPM or so.
Just about any modern road-car's engine would be up to this. However, we run into a dimensional problem here. The engine should fit under the hood without much, if any, surgery. The underhood space is a box, 18 inches long, 30 inches wide, and 28 inches tall.
What sort of engine would fit here, while meeting the requirements?
I have been assigned the task of making a relative's 1953 Morris Minor Series II four-door saloon into a sporty road car, fully capable in today's traffic.
We're gonna stiffen the shell up quite a bit, then install four decent bucket seats. The rear suspension will also have to be updated as the stock axle is weaker than watered-down Budweiser. This is not the issue, however.
The problem is propulsion.
Talking with him, I've decided that he wants about 100-140 horsepower, with a "get gone" button to unleash just under 200, either by temporarily raising turbo boost or by activating a nitrous-oxide system. Alternatively, a 50-70 horsepower diesel could be fitted, with propane injection to give him 50% extra when necessary. What he wants is relaxed cruising at 80 miles per hour; this means a torquey, understressed engine turning under 3500 RPM or so.
Just about any modern road-car's engine would be up to this. However, we run into a dimensional problem here. The engine should fit under the hood without much, if any, surgery. The underhood space is a box, 18 inches long, 30 inches wide, and 28 inches tall.
What sort of engine would fit here, while meeting the requirements?
The usual engine for this sort of power would be the Fiat twin-cam. There are also a few Rover V8 conversions around.
Purely to cruise at 80mph, a 1300 A-series with a 3.73:1 ratio diff (Wolseley/Riley 1500) would do the job... with twin SUs, a 3-branch tubular manifold and an exhaust with no silencer until behind the rear axle it will be capable of surprising more modern machinery and still get nearly 40mpg. But maybe you need more power than that.
Rear radius arms to stop axle tramp are recommended. Telescopic dampers will also be required - the existing lever arm dampers also act as upper wishbones, so leave them in but take out the restrictor pin.
The biggest issue compared to a modern car will be soundproofing. Noise gets into Moggies quite easily!
Purely to cruise at 80mph, a 1300 A-series with a 3.73:1 ratio diff (Wolseley/Riley 1500) would do the job... with twin SUs, a 3-branch tubular manifold and an exhaust with no silencer until behind the rear axle it will be capable of surprising more modern machinery and still get nearly 40mpg. But maybe you need more power than that.
Rear radius arms to stop axle tramp are recommended. Telescopic dampers will also be required - the existing lever arm dampers also act as upper wishbones, so leave them in but take out the restrictor pin.
The biggest issue compared to a modern car will be soundproofing. Noise gets into Moggies quite easily!
2.1 pinto,twin 45's,4-branch manifold connected to a modded janspeed system,type9 5-speed box and a 2.0 granada rear axle/diff arangement could work wonders.......then again there is always the 205 cossie block,type 49 box and *2.8 capri axle/diff
* = someone else will be able to tell you if there is a compatable diff to this but with the turbo i would have thought the ratio would have been o.k.
* = someone else will be able to tell you if there is a compatable diff to this but with the turbo i would have thought the ratio would have been o.k.
SR20DET? There is an article in a Minor magazine of my mothers about a sedan with a full escort cosworth drivetrain, suspension, and brakes. Very, very cool. We have a Minor 1000 2 door, I'm the one tasked with the bodywork and interior. Fuuuun. Yeah right. I could post pictures if you want.
I think cooling a turbocharged engine in that chassis could be difficult. Not much in the way of grill for airflow in the nose. Of course, I would think putting holes in that bonnet could net you some great airflow. Not very subtle.
I think cooling a turbocharged engine in that chassis could be difficult. Not much in the way of grill for airflow in the nose. Of course, I would think putting holes in that bonnet could net you some great airflow. Not very subtle.
the 205 is the block they used on the sierra cosworth,the sierra had a couple of air intakes in the bonnet to help with cooling but maybe fitting louvers like the owners of jensen interceptors had punched into their bonnets might help,they helped cool the massive chrysler lumps they had and they were (fairly) subtle.
>> Edited by cortinaman on Sunday 11th July 06:39
>> Edited by cortinaman on Sunday 11th July 06:39
planetdave said:
Just to be really helpful
There's a chap in Leamington Spa who specialises in this manouvre (name eludes me) who puts a K VVC in paired with a decent axle - can also fit the rover V6.
Happy hunting.
Bugger - i was thinking that too! However my mate lives there and he knows... Oh and it was in retro cars magazine too!
He is on PH, goes by the name liteweight (Ian Taylor) you could email him and ask him direct....
IMO K series is the way forward. You can pick one up, less than 20,000miles for around £300 here www.roverbreakers.com it will have all that you need for the conversion too but you are going to need a 5 speed box. Ford type 9 is your best bet. Call Frontline Costello in Bath for the conversion bellhousing to fit to the K series although the place in Leamington actually probaby sells these too!!
HTH!
Like this one?
'Fully capable?', as in it handles correctly due to a proper weight distribution, stops quickly because it has servo assisted brakes with discs all round, new uprights, large vented discs with at least 4-pot calipers and is aerodynamic?? You are using the wrong shell for aerodynamics - if you want to go with this, you will need to do a roof chop to reduce the frontal drag which this car creates - it has the aerodynamics of a house brick. Preferably change the rake ankle of the screen (tilt it back more) at the same time to be a less square angle, but this will be very awkward because the glass is rounded from side to side so you would have to have a one of glass made - I wouldn't bother unless its going to be a show car.
It will be a very large engineering project. You will need to do all the work yourself and be confident to have done this work before or you will be looking at a very expensive job for someone else to finish or another ‘unfinished project’ – I have ended up with a few of these. Anything can be done - the picture says it all.
I don't think you will need to stiffen up the shell - there is plenty of torsional rigidity in the existing one. All the chassis rails are very strong and over-engineered on a Minor, as were most cars from the late 1950's. They didn't worry about material costs in those days as there weren’t many cars on the road
A 3 litre Capri rear axle (or the 2.8i with the slipper) was a popular conversion, but you will have to cut down the overall width - another large job..While your there, ditch the drums and perform a caliper conversion on the rears. The Morris Minor had 'torsion - beam' suspension (carried over to the Morris Marina) and you will have to start again with that.
Indeed
A ‘get gone’ button
Those days are over. No one who uses nitrous uses a button these days. Nitrous oxide is a science – see my profile website for a whole page on how a nitrous system should be set up using computer controllers to fire the system at exactly the right time. Buying an n20 kit is only about £400 but then to control the power accurately you will need a progressive controller, additional fuel pumps, extra fuel lines, pressure switches for safety to protect the engine this cost mt over £2k to install properly. And then there is the engine:
This will need forged pistons, and a crankshaft that is either forged steel or billet steel.
Most inline 4’s would be good and give you room for a turbo conversion. The Lancia 2 litre twincam was a good conversion many years ago, but there are better, more modern engines available now. A Scorpio Grandad engine (Cosworth) would be good, but you could forget the turbo(s) ) as there isn’t room with a 'V' engine in the bay. A turbo conversion would require a lot of bespoke pipework for the intercooler etc - ask Deltaf.
I would go for the V6 above and then if it wasn't enough, you could always add 'direct port' notrous afterwards.
Hope this helps
edited for pics and formatting
>> Edited by ultimasimon on Sunday 11th July 12:00
chaparral said:
Ok, so here goes.
I have been assigned the task of making a relative's 1953 Morris Minor Series II four-door saloon into a sporty road car, fully capable in today's traffic.
'Fully capable?', as in it handles correctly due to a proper weight distribution, stops quickly because it has servo assisted brakes with discs all round, new uprights, large vented discs with at least 4-pot calipers and is aerodynamic?? You are using the wrong shell for aerodynamics - if you want to go with this, you will need to do a roof chop to reduce the frontal drag which this car creates - it has the aerodynamics of a house brick. Preferably change the rake ankle of the screen (tilt it back more) at the same time to be a less square angle, but this will be very awkward because the glass is rounded from side to side so you would have to have a one of glass made - I wouldn't bother unless its going to be a show car.
It will be a very large engineering project. You will need to do all the work yourself and be confident to have done this work before or you will be looking at a very expensive job for someone else to finish or another ‘unfinished project’ – I have ended up with a few of these. Anything can be done - the picture says it all.
chaparral said:
We're gonna stiffen the shell up quite a bit, and then install four decent bucket seats. The rear suspension will also have to be updated as the stock axle is weaker than watered-down Budweiser. This is not the issue, however.
I don't think you will need to stiffen up the shell - there is plenty of torsional rigidity in the existing one. All the chassis rails are very strong and over-engineered on a Minor, as were most cars from the late 1950's. They didn't worry about material costs in those days as there weren’t many cars on the road
A 3 litre Capri rear axle (or the 2.8i with the slipper) was a popular conversion, but you will have to cut down the overall width - another large job..While your there, ditch the drums and perform a caliper conversion on the rears. The Morris Minor had 'torsion - beam' suspension (carried over to the Morris Marina) and you will have to start again with that. chaparral said:
The problem is propulsion.
Indeed
chaparral said:
Talking with him, I've decided that he wants about 100-140 horsepower, with a "get gone" button to unleash just under 200, either by temporarily raising turbo boost or by activating a nitrous-oxide system. Alternatively, a 50-70 horsepower diesel could be fitted, with propane injection to give him 50% extra when necessary. What he wants is relaxed cruising at 80 miles per hour; this means a torquey, understressed engine turning under 3500 RPM or so.
A ‘get gone’ button
Those days are over. No one who uses nitrous uses a button these days. Nitrous oxide is a science – see my profile website for a whole page on how a nitrous system should be set up using computer controllers to fire the system at exactly the right time. Buying an n20 kit is only about £400 but then to control the power accurately you will need a progressive controller, additional fuel pumps, extra fuel lines, pressure switches for safety to protect the engine this cost mt over £2k to install properly. And then there is the engine: This will need forged pistons, and a crankshaft that is either forged steel or billet steel.
chaparral said:
Just about any modern road-car's engine would be up to this. However, we run into a dimensional problem here. The engine should fit under the hood without much, if any, surgery. The underhood space is a box, 18 inches long, 30 inches wide, and 28 inches tall.
What sort of engine would fit here, while meeting the requirements?
Most inline 4’s would be good and give you room for a turbo conversion. The Lancia 2 litre twincam was a good conversion many years ago, but there are better, more modern engines available now. A Scorpio Grandad engine (Cosworth) would be good, but you could forget the turbo(s) ) as there isn’t room with a 'V' engine in the bay. A turbo conversion would require a lot of bespoke pipework for the intercooler etc - ask Deltaf.
I would go for the V6 above and then if it wasn't enough, you could always add 'direct port' notrous afterwards.
Hope this helps
edited for pics and formatting
>> Edited by ultimasimon on Sunday 11th July 12:00
chaparral said:
Just about any modern road-car's engine would be up to this. However, we run into a dimensional problem here. The engine should fit under the hood without much, if any, surgery. The underhood space is a box, 18 inches long, 30 inches wide, and 28 inches tall.
What sort of engine would fit here, while meeting the requirements?
How about the Honda 1.6 VTEC jobby, there's a Mini that goes around the Nurbugring with one of these under the bonnet, so I assume it'll also fit in a Morris Minor.
www.ringmini.de for details.
Found this, if you are interested...
www.morrisminoroc.co.uk/technicaltips/alternateengines.html
[quote]A wide range of engines have been fitted to Minors over the years, some more logical than others. Engines squeezed into the wide Morris Minor engine bay included the Rover 3.5 ltr V8, Fiat 1300, 1600, 1800 and 2000. The Ford crossflow (Kent) engines, Ford V4, Ford V6 and a Toyota MR2 with engine management computer in the back of a van!
The Marina B series engine has been fitted, but this engine is large, heavy and gives very little more in the way of performance. The worst one I saw was a Daimler 4.2 ltr. This involved moving the bulkhead back 12 inches and fitting a tubular spaceframe chassis to take it all. I wonder where it balanced and how it handled. I also wonder what the insurance company said!!
The Ford crossflow engines fit easily as the gearbox is small. All that is required is to fabricate a set of engine and gearbox mounts to fit it. An allegro radiator fits well and a modified propshaft is required. If you fit a 1300, the standard Minor back axle will take it. If you go for the 1600 then I would advise you to fit uprated halfshafts and read the section on diff ratios. These stronger shafts are available from traders in Minor Matters.
The Ford Pinto OHC engines are no good for us as they are way too heavy.
Fitting the Fiat twin cam engines requires a lot of work. New engine and gearbox mounts need to be made along with new gearbox crossmember. The Minor front crossmember has to be altered, and the Fiat gearbox has to have a slice taken out of the bellhousing to clear the Minor steering rack. It is also advisable to fit a stronger back axle from a Marina, Toyota Celica, Fiat 132 etc., as the standard Minor axle could snap like a twig! Brakes and suspension should also be uprated. See the article in the Members Area on Fiat twin cams.
New fuel system, cooling system, exhaust, electrics and clutch release arm also have to be fabricated. Nought to sixty times will be below eight seconds, and sixteen second quarter miles are common. The good news is that there are kits available from advertisers in Minor Matters, with all the mountings and brackets that you need, and specialist insurance companies are now recognising this as an acceptable modification. There are also scores of Morris Minor Owners Club members who have done it! Contact me for more information.
Fitting the Rover V8 is even harder. Usually a separate spaceframe chassis has to be made up, although using a standard Minor van chassis has been done!
[/quote]
www.morrisminoroc.co.uk/technicaltips/alternateengines.html
[quote]A wide range of engines have been fitted to Minors over the years, some more logical than others. Engines squeezed into the wide Morris Minor engine bay included the Rover 3.5 ltr V8, Fiat 1300, 1600, 1800 and 2000. The Ford crossflow (Kent) engines, Ford V4, Ford V6 and a Toyota MR2 with engine management computer in the back of a van!
The Marina B series engine has been fitted, but this engine is large, heavy and gives very little more in the way of performance. The worst one I saw was a Daimler 4.2 ltr. This involved moving the bulkhead back 12 inches and fitting a tubular spaceframe chassis to take it all. I wonder where it balanced and how it handled. I also wonder what the insurance company said!!
The Ford crossflow engines fit easily as the gearbox is small. All that is required is to fabricate a set of engine and gearbox mounts to fit it. An allegro radiator fits well and a modified propshaft is required. If you fit a 1300, the standard Minor back axle will take it. If you go for the 1600 then I would advise you to fit uprated halfshafts and read the section on diff ratios. These stronger shafts are available from traders in Minor Matters.
The Ford Pinto OHC engines are no good for us as they are way too heavy.
Fitting the Fiat twin cam engines requires a lot of work. New engine and gearbox mounts need to be made along with new gearbox crossmember. The Minor front crossmember has to be altered, and the Fiat gearbox has to have a slice taken out of the bellhousing to clear the Minor steering rack. It is also advisable to fit a stronger back axle from a Marina, Toyota Celica, Fiat 132 etc., as the standard Minor axle could snap like a twig! Brakes and suspension should also be uprated. See the article in the Members Area on Fiat twin cams.
New fuel system, cooling system, exhaust, electrics and clutch release arm also have to be fabricated. Nought to sixty times will be below eight seconds, and sixteen second quarter miles are common. The good news is that there are kits available from advertisers in Minor Matters, with all the mountings and brackets that you need, and specialist insurance companies are now recognising this as an acceptable modification. There are also scores of Morris Minor Owners Club members who have done it! Contact me for more information.
Fitting the Rover V8 is even harder. Usually a separate spaceframe chassis has to be made up, although using a standard Minor van chassis has been done!
[/quote]
Again, I've seen a few Minors with V8s, but I'll second the user before that mooted the thought of a Nissan SR20DET engine (200SX/Silvia/Sunny GTiR/ Bluebird SSS-S Turbo) .... they're very small, and very light, tuneable quite considerably (but get very fragile when done sounless you spend big bucks on better internals) but having said that, their standard output would more than surpass the criteria you suggest. My heart would say RV8 or Cosworth 2L, but the compactness/lightness of the Nissan SR20DET really makes it the engine of choice.... shame you're not in NZ, SR20s are ten-a-penny here.
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