Driven - FBS Census
Discussion
After hooking up with Andrew Barber (joe90) via PistonHeads, he kindly agreed to bring the Census along for test drives to the West of Scotland TVR meet this weekend. Fortunately the horrendous rain we had on Saturday disappeared by early Sunday morning, giving way to patchy sunshine, so hood off, wind in the hair, I set off the 70-odd miles to the meet, picking up fellow clubmember Neil Vince on the way.
As I turned into the Pub carpark, I could see Andrew standing by his car, chatting to club members. It does look better in the flesh, but I think that sales would be improved with a more classic shape.
Anyway, I parked my Chimaera next to the Census & introduced myself to Andrew - after a little chat, he got right down to business & said lets go for a drive....
First impressions from the passenger side of prototype #3 were that it's a fair bit quieter than a TVR, both in wind noise (good) and in engine noise (less good). The seating position is a fair bit higher, but nicely supportive - the top of the windscreen is a slightly lower than on my Chimaera, but the car does have an integral rollover bar behind your head, which is nice. Andrew took me a few miles along a stretch of undulating road & the car seemed pretty well planted, although a couple of bumps did cause the rear drivers side tyre to slightly foul the wheelarch - Andrew thought that for Scottish roads they would need to slightly change the suspension settings, as this didn't seem to be a problem on any of the English roads he had driven on - fortunately the suspension is fully adjustable....
Then it's my turn - we swap seats, I get comfortable, put it into gear, let up the clutch, I stall it. OK, it has a low bite point
I try again & things go a bit smoother this time. Gear change feels familiar, but then it would, as it's the same T5 box that's in my TVR. Before things get too fast, I try a couple of emergency stops - the brake pedal takes a bit of effort, but there's a fair amount of stopping power there - Andrew told me that this is deliberate - since there's no ABS, he wanted there to be as much brake modulation available as possible. The other thing I notice is that there seems very little diving under braking compared to my Chimaera - I guess that is TVRs way of giving brake feedback
After a few of miles I think I've got the feel of it, but we're almost back to where we started - "turn round & do it again says Andrew", so off we go, a bit faster this time. I notice a slight dip in the power delivery at about 3500RPM - apparently that is where the engine changes inlet tracts - OK we'll keep it above that then
. There's a nice sequence of bends that pushes my Chimaera to the limit, so I wanted to see how the Census would take it: brake into fast 3rd gear right, slight lift & turn left over crest, car drifts nicely balanced, suspension fully compresses as we hit the bottom of the dip, foot pretty much to the floor & then another slight lift to set it up for the next right as we go up the next hill, keep the foot planted as we go through the next couple of bends - most exhilarating! I look left to see how Andrew is taking it - he seems calm - obviously confident in the ability of his chassis. No scuttle shake & very little body roll/pitch compared to the Chimaera - the Avons feel like they let go a little before the Chimaeras Bridgestone SO2PPs, but they seem pretty progressive on the limit. This car feels like it could handle a lot more power - the engine seems to pull reasonably well between 4500 & 6000RPM, but I didn't feel like there was any benefit to be gained from taking it to the redlined 7000RPM.
I would think that the same engine in a 15% higher state of tune (202bhp @ 6500rpm, 235Nm @ 5500rpm), as fitted to the Mondeo ST200, would be an easy substitute to the standard engine. All too soon we returned to the Pub, hopefully without worrying Andrew that I was about to send his baby into a hedge.
Apparently the idea with choosing the Ford V6 engine means that it can be serviced at any Ford garage, with very few items needing return to base treatment.
Sadly time pressures meant I wasn't able to take Andrew out in my Chimaera to try & change his negative attitude to it's handling characteristics.
My thoughts on the car - well sorted suspension, nice driving position - if a more powerful engine could be put in it without changing the cost too much, that would attract more buyers; at the same time maybe tune the exhaust a bit, to give a bit more aural pleasure.
(Mind you I tend to want more power in most cars I drive
) Reactions to the car's styling at the club were pretty mixed - one person really liked it, a couple hated it & the rest were somewhere in between.
I wish Andrew every success with FBS & thanks again for taking the time to come & show off your car to some fellow PistonHeaders!
cheers,
Craig
>>> Edited by craigalsop on Tuesday 23 July 15:40
Thanks for the report Craig. I have driven it myself, and whilst I am not as eloquent as yourself I had great fun in it, and to be honest, it is seriously on my shopping list (cue instant PHer feedback comparing it to the Multipla or something similar).
I admit that the car looks far better in the flest, and at the risk of sounding negative, it looks even better from the inside. There was enough power for a non super hero as myself to have fun, and not to feel as if I was about to fall off the road. It imspired confidence, but since I was not on my home roads I did not have much to compare it with, but loved the responsiveness and handling. I agree that that bite point on the clutch is an acquired knack, but I would like to have a longer period to get acquanted, if just to check that it will fit into my garage.
My only negative point, and this is, I admit, very picky, is the roof. As a self confessed fresh air junky the roof was more of a bind than I hoped for. Not the "pitching a tent" of the Elise, but still not the one man, one side of the car affair I was hoping for.
Just my 2c worth, your mileage may vary!
C
I admit that the car looks far better in the flest, and at the risk of sounding negative, it looks even better from the inside. There was enough power for a non super hero as myself to have fun, and not to feel as if I was about to fall off the road. It imspired confidence, but since I was not on my home roads I did not have much to compare it with, but loved the responsiveness and handling. I agree that that bite point on the clutch is an acquired knack, but I would like to have a longer period to get acquanted, if just to check that it will fit into my garage.
My only negative point, and this is, I admit, very picky, is the roof. As a self confessed fresh air junky the roof was more of a bind than I hoped for. Not the "pitching a tent" of the Elise, but still not the one man, one side of the car affair I was hoping for.
Just my 2c worth, your mileage may vary!
C
quote:I didn't get a chance to try that out, as the roof was already down when I got there. Isn't the prototype's mechanism from the MGF? Maybe they've changed that now.
My only negative point, and this is, I admit, very picky, is the roof. As a self confessed fresh air junky the roof was more of a bind than I hoped for. Not the "pitching a tent" of the Elise, but still not the one man, one side of the car affair I was hoping for.
cheers,
Craig
Thanks Craig for inviting me to the TVR meet and for the time taken to write up your test drive. I still haven't got over the fact that you showed me capabilities of the Census I have never discovered!
I can do an instant engine upgrade by fitting a lightened flywheel and deleting the starter cat's to allow the engine to both breathe and rev more freely. Both sets of kit are proven, off-the-shelf items from the USA. Normally I will charge a couple of grand for this upgrade. First person to pay a deposit on a car with this kit gets it at a massive discount.
Roof is indeed based on MGF but because it stows out of sight, is a little more complicated. It is a one person, one minute job but not one side of the car.
More tomorrrow.
>> Edited by joe90 on Monday 22 July 20:27
I can do an instant engine upgrade by fitting a lightened flywheel and deleting the starter cat's to allow the engine to both breathe and rev more freely. Both sets of kit are proven, off-the-shelf items from the USA. Normally I will charge a couple of grand for this upgrade. First person to pay a deposit on a car with this kit gets it at a massive discount.
Roof is indeed based on MGF but because it stows out of sight, is a little more complicated. It is a one person, one minute job but not one side of the car.
More tomorrrow.
>> Edited by joe90 on Monday 22 July 20:27
I have now had time to go through Craig’s report in detail and can shed more light on a few things.
The one engineering lesson from the 1100 mile four day trip to Scotland was that we need a bit more clearance inside the rear wheel arches. The touching of wheels on the rear inner arches we experienced two up with full fuel and luggage is noisy but harmless and can be fixed with no change to either appearance or handling by changing the inner wheel arch which we will be doing from the next production car.
The production clutch operation is a little lighter than the prototype but is otherwise similar.
There is no anti-dive designed into our suspension. The small amount of attitude change under brakes is simply a function of the low CoG height and spring rates.
The easiest engine upgrade is the one outlined yesterday. Ford have never made the ST200 engine available to us as a complete unit (we did ask, many times!). We could convert an engine to ST200 sec’ by buying the bits from Ford but it would add several thousand pounds to the price of the car. Ford has indicated that the ST220 3 litre will become available sometime but no one should hold their breath for it!
I love the fact that proper sports car people (like TVR owners) want the Census to be noisier while ordinary people often wonder if it could be quieter! Anyway, there are two ways forward on this which we can do now. With the standard engine, to replace the two small mufflers with straight pipes so that the only silencing is from the (three) catalysts. Alternatively, the single catalyst version described yesterday is going to be a lot noisier even with mufflers. Both mod’s might have to be fitted as after market items!
The one engineering lesson from the 1100 mile four day trip to Scotland was that we need a bit more clearance inside the rear wheel arches. The touching of wheels on the rear inner arches we experienced two up with full fuel and luggage is noisy but harmless and can be fixed with no change to either appearance or handling by changing the inner wheel arch which we will be doing from the next production car.
The production clutch operation is a little lighter than the prototype but is otherwise similar.
There is no anti-dive designed into our suspension. The small amount of attitude change under brakes is simply a function of the low CoG height and spring rates.
The easiest engine upgrade is the one outlined yesterday. Ford have never made the ST200 engine available to us as a complete unit (we did ask, many times!). We could convert an engine to ST200 sec’ by buying the bits from Ford but it would add several thousand pounds to the price of the car. Ford has indicated that the ST220 3 litre will become available sometime but no one should hold their breath for it!
I love the fact that proper sports car people (like TVR owners) want the Census to be noisier while ordinary people often wonder if it could be quieter! Anyway, there are two ways forward on this which we can do now. With the standard engine, to replace the two small mufflers with straight pipes so that the only silencing is from the (three) catalysts. Alternatively, the single catalyst version described yesterday is going to be a lot noisier even with mufflers. Both mod’s might have to be fitted as after market items!
quote:Pleasure was all mine
Thanks Craig for inviting me to the TVR meet and for the time taken to write up your test drive. I still haven't got over the fact that you showed me capabilities of the Census I have never discovered!
- just a shame there were no big roundabouts anywhere near, or I could have tested out how easy it is to balance an opposite lock slide on the throttle 
quote:It's already better than the sparks you get when a TVR's underside hits the deck (fairly common on bumpy country roads - I think it's the exhaust bolts that hit first, but can't be sure)
The touching of wheels on the rear inner arches we experienced two up with full fuel and luggage is noisy but harmless and can be fixed with no change to either appearance or handling by changing the inner wheel arch which we will be doing from the next production car.
quote:I don't think it is a problem - I've driven plenty cars with similar clutches - makes for faster gearchanges...
The production clutch operation is a little lighter than the prototype but is otherwise similar.
cheers,
Craig
I also had the pleasure of taking this car for a spin at the meeting. I thoroughly enjoyed the drive and was impressed with the 2.5 V6 engine.
It`s difficult to give an overall opinion when comparing the car to a V8S.
In Layman`s terms I would give it 9/10 for performance,
8/10 for road holding and 8/10 for styling
Drawbacks for me were 1/ The overall shape and design of the car was good however I felt that the bonnet was too broad at the front giving it the general appearance of a duck billed platypus! The side lines and the rear end looked great. 2/ The car, in my opinion was really light and lacked the sure footedness I find in the V8S. A sure footed V8S? If I didnt have the TVR to compare this car to I would have been tempted, however at risk of repeating myself and after careful consideration I think some slight changes to the front end design would just clinch the deal. Thanks for the drive and best of luck with sales. Eric Benn.
It`s difficult to give an overall opinion when comparing the car to a V8S.
In Layman`s terms I would give it 9/10 for performance,
8/10 for road holding and 8/10 for styling
Drawbacks for me were 1/ The overall shape and design of the car was good however I felt that the bonnet was too broad at the front giving it the general appearance of a duck billed platypus! The side lines and the rear end looked great. 2/ The car, in my opinion was really light and lacked the sure footedness I find in the V8S. A sure footed V8S? If I didnt have the TVR to compare this car to I would have been tempted, however at risk of repeating myself and after careful consideration I think some slight changes to the front end design would just clinch the deal. Thanks for the drive and best of luck with sales. Eric Benn.
Hello Simba,
Thanks for the comments, I am very pleased at your high ratings for the Census. I wonder if you could spare a few minutes, please, to expand on your thoughts on the handling as I have never been in a TVR S and want to try and put your remarks into the context of other very favourable comparisons of the Census with Elises, Chimaeras, etc.
thanks
Thanks for the comments, I am very pleased at your high ratings for the Census. I wonder if you could spare a few minutes, please, to expand on your thoughts on the handling as I have never been in a TVR S and want to try and put your remarks into the context of other very favourable comparisons of the Census with Elises, Chimaeras, etc.
thanks
Saw the car at Silverstone on Saturday - while it's true the car looks better that it's pictures would suggest, it still failed the girlfriend test ("we are NOT getting a car that looks like that, it's got a fat arse...."). From the comments here and elsewhere, it would seem the cars weakest point is it's styling. You can rattle on all day about driver appeal, handling etc. but the fact remains people buy cars like this with their heart - many will fall for it's charms when driven I'm sure, but how many will never get that far because of the looks I wonder?
I would have liked to compare it to my S2000 as the prices are very similar and I find the S2000 to be a fine handling car once you get to know it and drive to the car's strengths.
Unfortunately nobody was there to ask at the time I saw it, never mind, another time maybe.
I would have liked to compare it to my S2000 as the prices are very similar and I find the S2000 to be a fine handling car once you get to know it and drive to the car's strengths.
Unfortunately nobody was there to ask at the time I saw it, never mind, another time maybe.
Hello Mark,
Sorry you missed me, I was with one of the adjoining Locost outfits (cars 70 & 73). Despite your other half's scepticism [are you all men or mice? :-) I have another potential customer whose excuse is that he can't get all his wife's weekend luggage in!], you are welcome to drop into Brackley for a drive. I think you have probably already seen my comparison with the S2000 in the current thread on that car.
As I've said before, we'll do a new body for anyone who wants to put a quarter of a million quid into the company. Otherwise, we have to run with this styling for a while. All is not lost with the current styling whatever the bar room experts elsewhere on PH seem to think. Even 1 in 4 PH reader's like the styling
www.pistonheads.com/roadtests/index.asp?storyId=3219
and follow the comment voting link.
We are selling cars slowly (and delivering them which is more than can be said for certain other start ups!). Our sales rate should also be seen in the context of the general market, I have been told by people who should know that even the well established specialists are very much dowm on volumes at the moment but I can't repeat them here because there is no way for me to verify them.
Completely off topic but is there any car that a majority of PH readers like? Every new car whoever makes it seems to get howls of derision.
Sorry you missed me, I was with one of the adjoining Locost outfits (cars 70 & 73). Despite your other half's scepticism [are you all men or mice? :-) I have another potential customer whose excuse is that he can't get all his wife's weekend luggage in!], you are welcome to drop into Brackley for a drive. I think you have probably already seen my comparison with the S2000 in the current thread on that car.
As I've said before, we'll do a new body for anyone who wants to put a quarter of a million quid into the company. Otherwise, we have to run with this styling for a while. All is not lost with the current styling whatever the bar room experts elsewhere on PH seem to think. Even 1 in 4 PH reader's like the styling
www.pistonheads.com/roadtests/index.asp?storyId=3219
and follow the comment voting link.
We are selling cars slowly (and delivering them which is more than can be said for certain other start ups!). Our sales rate should also be seen in the context of the general market, I have been told by people who should know that even the well established specialists are very much dowm on volumes at the moment but I can't repeat them here because there is no way for me to verify them.
Completely off topic but is there any car that a majority of PH readers like? Every new car whoever makes it seems to get howls of derision.
quote:Unfortunately for FBS these "Bar Room Experts" are your potential customers, so I wouldn't be to disparaging! Seems to me you have spent a lot of time justifying the appearance of the car on here, which must tell you something about people’s view of it. Oh, and I seem to remember the Griffith was released to universal acclaim back in 1990 and PW didn't invest millions to get the look, he simply entrusted it to a couple of “up-and-coming” young designers. It is a fact in sales that the customer is "always right" and as most potential customers think it is "plug-ugly" they are, by definition, right, no matter how hard you try to convince them otherwise. Rich...
All is not lost with the current styling whatever the bar room experts elsewhere on PH seem to think. Even 1 in 4 PH readers like the styling
Andrew,
I understand your position on the styling, once the car is in production there isn't a lot that can be done. My comments were more public conjecture than an outright criticism, I don't actually hate the styling, but it doesn't make me think 'sportscar' either. Anyway, these things are entirely subjective and as long as enough people like the styling or can see past it enough to want the car for it's driver appeal then I'm pleased, I want to see FBS succeed - as do most PH 'Bar room experts'.
Next time I'm passing Brackley with some time to spare, I might well call and arrange something, maybe you can convince me that automotive beauty is more than skin deep
I understand your position on the styling, once the car is in production there isn't a lot that can be done. My comments were more public conjecture than an outright criticism, I don't actually hate the styling, but it doesn't make me think 'sportscar' either. Anyway, these things are entirely subjective and as long as enough people like the styling or can see past it enough to want the car for it's driver appeal then I'm pleased, I want to see FBS succeed - as do most PH 'Bar room experts'.
Next time I'm passing Brackley with some time to spare, I might well call and arrange something, maybe you can convince me that automotive beauty is more than skin deep
quote:What I really cannot understand is why FBS have saddled themselves with this problem of having to justify the looks in the first place, it's just one more sales objection to overcome before getting an order. Seems strange to me. That's all. R...
maybe you can convince me that automotive beauty is more than skin deep
Rich,
Funnily enough, all of the people who own the company (six of us of different ages, backgrounds and degrees of interest on sports cars) plus dozens of professional advisors and hundreds of general public (we "cliniced" the car at Stoneleigh in 2000 and modified the styling to address the few criticisms we had there) all see the car as a beautiful, exciting and innovative piece of styling. It's only since the PH and Top Gear reviews last November that there has been such vitriolic criticism of the styling. If I was being paranoid, I would think it was that with everything else being so good (which seems not to be in doubt) we have to be attacked lest we suceed which of course is not popular in this country unless you are a footballer! But I am not paranoid so I don't think this.
For myself, I look at the cars every day and still think it is a great looking sports car but then I don't use hair gel and I don't buy designer trainers so I must be wrong :-)
Read the above with a smile, I wrote it with one.
Funnily enough, all of the people who own the company (six of us of different ages, backgrounds and degrees of interest on sports cars) plus dozens of professional advisors and hundreds of general public (we "cliniced" the car at Stoneleigh in 2000 and modified the styling to address the few criticisms we had there) all see the car as a beautiful, exciting and innovative piece of styling. It's only since the PH and Top Gear reviews last November that there has been such vitriolic criticism of the styling. If I was being paranoid, I would think it was that with everything else being so good (which seems not to be in doubt) we have to be attacked lest we suceed which of course is not popular in this country unless you are a footballer! But I am not paranoid so I don't think this.
For myself, I look at the cars every day and still think it is a great looking sports car but then I don't use hair gel and I don't buy designer trainers so I must be wrong :-)
Read the above with a smile, I wrote it with one.
quote:Begs the question, "is beauty in the eye of the be'holder or shareholder"?
Funnily enough, all of the people who own the company (six of us of different ages, backgrounds and degrees of interest on sports cars) plus dozens of professional advisors and hundreds of general public all see the car as a beautiful, exciting and innovative piece of styling.
However you cannot deny that the fact you have to engage in this discussion means there is an issue with the looks. Generally car people agree on what are classic shapes:- AC Cobra, Ferarri Dino, Porsche 911, TVR Griffith and also agree on the so-called inovative (but unappealing) ones, TR7, Reliant Scimitar SS1 where are they now? Rich...
Joe,
I saw the car again at Silverstone on Saturday. In fact, it was parked right next to my team. I have to say, that I still can't stand the styling.
It's the front that I find most unappealing. The flares over the wheels are just way too exagerated making the whole bonnet look like an Alfa GTV that's been fed a diet of lard pies. The sides and rear aren't anywhere near as ugly, but that daft 'grin' look just makes me shudder.
I'm sure you could restyle it and get a lot better reception than you've been getting.
Just my two pennies.
I saw the car again at Silverstone on Saturday. In fact, it was parked right next to my team. I have to say, that I still can't stand the styling.
It's the front that I find most unappealing. The flares over the wheels are just way too exagerated making the whole bonnet look like an Alfa GTV that's been fed a diet of lard pies. The sides and rear aren't anywhere near as ugly, but that daft 'grin' look just makes me shudder.
I'm sure you could restyle it and get a lot better reception than you've been getting.
Just my two pennies.
Gassing Station | General Gassing [Archive] | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff