Looming transport crises...

[Sponge Bob]

Amongst all the road-pricing crises, and the other problems such as traffic, speeding issues, accidents and the like - there is one thing which has stayed relatively unchanged, on the face of it, in the realms of technology...

Roads themselves!

I'm not talking about surfacing technology or where these things go - although I think that mapping out of roads is a great factor in why there is much congestion around non-city based areas. I'm talking about totally renovating the way we design road layouts, junction stylings etc.

It seems that while vehicles themselves are massively advancing, we still have the age-old technology of traffic lights, roundabouts and crossroads/t-junctions.
Fair enough, they work - as did 1940's vehicles... but in the light of the recently aired problems - and indeed the looming inevitability of a failing transport future - shouldn't the Government be looking to take open and wider measures rather than conjuring up more short-term revenue generating schemes, forcing the poor off the roads - which will no doubt cause great harm to the economy in the long run.


What I propose is that we look at the way roads have been designed - and seek to improve. Take wheels for example: a circle made of wood - it worked, but had problems... so man used a softer substance which would soak up some of the roads imperfections - rubber... Great this was better, but still not good enough, more and more development was done - and is constantly going on - air in these wheels, implementation of a tread, and now drive-on-flat style tyres.


Has anyone here considered just how bad a crossroads or T-junction is... If you sit down and think about it - the design of a crossroads - or even a T-junction is highly flawed. The inefficency of waiting for spaces to pull out, the queue's which always form due to this, and how many accidents are caused from this scenario?? This costs the economy millions per annum - money which could be spent elsewhere.

Again - x-roads quite possibly were fantastic with a limited amount of cars on the road - but when this number increases, the problems arise... which is why traffic lights have to be used - in order to make a safer, and fairer way for vehicles at these road crossings to flow.

Then there's the roundabout - a great alternative to just having 4 roads collide in the middle, leaving drivers themselves to sort the situation - and lets face it - that's probably not a good idea considering most of our driving ethics.
There is evidence of some improvements - for example the automatic feed lanes when you take the first left off a roundabout - I say this was a step in the right direction, but why stop there. Also, more fly-overs are appearing - again, this is great as roads should not be limited to two dimensions, but rather use the space granted to us.


So I ask, why don't we (I don't mean us PH'ers ;) lol) design the next stages on from roundabouts and roads - I'd laugh at anyone who says there is no possible advancement. We should be thinking off the cuff, totally different - rather than sticking with the 'norm'...

Clearly, there is the issue that these things should be kept simple as there are some, well, simple drivers out there... (no offence intended, but i'm sure people agree). With that in mind however, if it was more complex to navigate certain road obstacles, this would naturally be reflected in the driving test - in addition, a harder driving test has the obvious in-direct knock on effect of reducing the number of drivers on the road.



I conclude, saying that it is about time we looked far deeper into the looming transport crises before it is too late - and not just allow the Government to bully us off the roads with their unfair, unjust and downright greedy cash flow schemes. Chasing the poor, or vehicle reliant off the roads is not clever, useful, perhaps not even feasible... we can tackle this like we're actually in the year 2005...!

[JagLover]

One improvement would be to make all traffic lights and pedestrian crossings 'intelligent', ie able to sense which would be the most efficient phasing at any point in time.

>> Edited by JagLover on Tuesday 14th June 15:00

[Munter]

JagLover said:

One improvement would be to make all traffic lights and pedestrian crossings 'intelligent', ie able to sense which would be the most efficient phasing at any point in time.

I'd build on that and say lets get the cars and traffic signals talking to each other. Assuming the cars are fitted with sat nav and know where they are going they could feed that info to the traffic "controls" and in a conjested environment we could start to direct cars the most efficient way...

[Sponge Bob]

Doh - missed out my ideas for traffic light and signals but yeah totally agree with you two... start using the technology we've developed!!

Signals which communicated to each other could watch where high flow traffic was coming from or going and adjust timing accordingly. Without registering any details of the vehicle - just that there is 'a vehicle' there is no worry about human rights being infringed.

Although with human rights aside, if chips where installed in particular vehicles - not for monitoring purposes, just for identification, then lights could look out for slow moving vehicles etc - indeed the government could gain from this as they could give a "high priority" chip to buses and emergency vehicles...

Think of the greater efficiency of the emergenecy service if lights could anticipate their arrival and change accordingly...

That is the technology i'm talking about.

[parrot of doom]

Can you imagine what Ken Livingstone would do with such technology, prior to rolling out a congestion charge?

[Sponge Bob]

If he remains in power....

... I'm going to take his job -


i'll start the mayor graduate scheme then see how we go from there...

>> Edited by Sponge Bob on Tuesday 14th June 15:49

[andytk]

One idea I've always thought might work to increase road space is to use lightweight metal structures to put roads up in the air. A bit like the chicago L train system but with more modern materials and use of less metal.

Think of a series of high strength poles protruding from the central reservation of a dual carridgeway which would support perhaps an extra two lanes. Due to strength and metal consumption it may be a good idea to limit the access to these elevated roads to just private cars. Exclude vans, trucks and busses. This instantly means the construction can be much much lighter and prevents much of the heavy road wear caused by busses and trucks.

It would be best in specific applications where there is no capacity to build outwards (in town and city enviroments).

Also another use would be as a "through only lane" system.
It has always struck me that people wishing to travel thought/past something like junctions etc are penalised by the poor traffic flow at the junction. If they were on a seperate elevated section that had nothing to do with the junction then there progess may be smoother and quicker.

Andy

[sleepezy]

Some of the intelligent traffic signal controls you're talking about are already being used:

www.bathnes.gov.uk/BathNES/transportandroads/roadspathsandstreets/TrafficSignals/UrbanTrafficManagementControl/

Like any good idea to help traffic flow, just not enough...

[wanstead]

JagLover said:

One improvement would be to make all traffic lights and pedestrian crossings 'intelligent', ie able to sense which would be the most efficient phasing at any point in time.

A very good friend of mine works for Ken, in the department responsible for all things road related (including traffic lights). I did ask them once why the phasing of traffic lights is so bad, - you know the routine - lights go green and immediately the next set 100 yds ahead go red. I didn’t get very far; the lights would have been phased perfectly apparently. Did you really expect the phasing to be designed to improve the flow of traffic you poor deluded fool! NO, NO, NO pedestrians come first then busses followed by cyclists (all who have departments to themselves overseen by ‘Tsars’) cars have no representative and come along way down the list just behind the Freeman who wants to drive a flock of sheep across the city. Don’t forget they need congestion to justify the congestion tax.

[Munter]

andytk said:

One idea I've always thought might work to increase road space is to use lightweight metal structures to put roads up in the air. A bit like the chicago L train system but with more modern materials and use of less metal.

I've had a similar idea involving an "L" type idea.

Basically you walk out of your house and stand in the shelter no more than 200yds away. There you enter your destination. A few moments later a "pod" comes along the track and picks you up. "Pods" could seat say 8 people so if a number of people are going from say Slough to London 1 pod would pick up 8 people and transport them.

Basically it's minibusses/trains but all computer controled and it runs down EVERY street. The roads would then be free of 90% of rush hour traffic. You just need enough pods to cope with demand. The roads would then be the preserve of heavy traffic and people blatting around in sports cars

[Twincam16]

Munter said:

andytk said: One idea I've always thought might work to increase road space is to use lightweight metal structures to put roads up in the air. A bit like the chicago L train system but with more modern materials and use of less metal. I've had a similar idea involving an "L" type idea. Basically you walk out of your house and stand in the shelter no more than 200yds away. There you enter your destination. A few moments later a "pod" comes along the track and picks you up. "Pods" could seat say 8 people so if a number of people are going from say Slough to London 1 pod would pick up 8 people and transport them. Basically it's minibusses/trains but all computer controled and it runs down EVERY street. The roads would then be free of 90% of rush hour traffic. You just need enough pods to cope with demand. The roads would then be the preserve of heavy traffic and people blatting around in sports cars

I think monorails are the way to go, public transport-wise.

I mean, the biggest problem with public transport is the fact that it's slow and inefficient and it clogs up the roads. If you got a new system where you replaced all the urban bus routes with these monorails, raised off the ground, then not only would they not clog up the traffic, they would also run to time, and they would be automated to the extent that the driver would just keep an eye on things and you could have conductors keeping order too.

People might complain that it's an eyesore, but buses are eyesores, bus lanes are eyesores, traffic congestion is an eyesore - you can't have it all ways. Plus, the right designer could make the pylons looks like sleek works of modern art.

Roads are for private and commercial transport. Prioritising public transport on them is like privatising the railways - and look what happened when they did that

[r988]

...which would naturally lead to driverless cars.

[rich 36]

I could leave my paperless office,
scoff a space pill while wearing my spandex jacket
(1 for everyone) hop in l'air d auto, and sail off home

[Pigeon]

Munter said:

I've had a similar idea involving an "L" type idea. Basically you walk out of your house and stand in the shelter no more than 200yds away. There you enter your destination. A few moments later a "pod" comes along the track and picks you up. "Pods" could seat say 8 people so if a number of people are going from say Slough to London 1 pod would pick up 8 people and transport them. Basically it's minibusses/trains but all computer controled and it runs down EVERY street. The roads would then be free of 90% of rush hour traffic. You just need enough pods to cope with demand. The roads would then be the preserve of heavy traffic and people blatting around in sports cars

You seen "Logan's Run"? I thought the public transport in that was ace.

Twincam16 said:

I think monorails are the way to go, public transport-wise. I mean, the biggest problem with public transport is the fact that it's slow and inefficient and it clogs up the roads. If you got a new system where you replaced all the urban bus routes with these monorails, raised off the ground, then not only would they not clog up the traffic, they would also run to time, and they would be automated to the extent that the driver would just keep an eye on things and you could have conductors keeping order too. People might complain that it's an eyesore, but buses are eyesores, bus lanes are eyesores, traffic congestion is an eyesore - you can't have it all ways. Plus, the right designer could make the pylons looks like sleek works of modern art. Roads are for private and commercial transport. Prioritising public transport on them is like privatising the railways - and look what happened when they did that

I pretty much agree with that apart from the "monorail" bit. The compromises you have to go through to make the thing stay on a single rail end up making it so complicated that it loses any advantage it might have over a conventional two-rail system. Junctions are a particular arse. It's not so bad with maglev, but that has its own problems - can you imagine such a high-tech system continuing to work with either a bus company or a local authority in charge of maintenance?

I reckon narrow-gauge is the answer - a track gauge of two foot or less would be just as easy to perch on pylons as a single rail, and a whole lot simpler. Ground-level narrow gauge systems like the Welsh railways or the Ravenglass & Eskdale are a good demonstration that it works and has no stability problems, though the carriage interiors would need a bit of a redesign I think... something along the lines of a normal modern railway carriage but with the narrower body width dictating single instead of double seats either side of the aisle, which would also mitigate a major disadvantage of public transport, which is that other people use it

[8Pack]

Of course, in the 1980's we had 300,000 newly redundant miners who had the skills and knowledge to have built underground railway systems for every major city and large town in the UK by now. Pity we let them rot away on the dole, the large scale knowledge is now..............gone.

[rich 36]

If you place an ear to the ground at night time, when its quiet, you might actually hear the clink of pickaxes at work.
Go on, try it tonight
Any main road should do,
(thats how they navigate right)

[supraman2954]

wanstead said:

A very good friend of mine works for Ken, in the department responsible for all things road related (including traffic lights). I did ask them once why the phasing of traffic lights is so bad, - you know the routine - lights go green and immediately the next set 100 yds ahead go red. I didn’t get very far; the lights would have been phased perfectly apparently. Did you really expect the phasing to be designed to improve the flow of traffic you poor deluded fool! NO, NO, NO pedestrians come first then busses followed by cyclists (all who have departments to themselves overseen by ‘Tsars’) cars have no representative and come along way down the list just behind the Freeman who wants to drive a flock of sheep across the city. Don’t forget they need congestion to justify the congestion tax.

I remember hearing a news report on the radio around 2 years ago that they had re-phased the traffic lights in London, making congestion much worse. That same day, I noticed the traffic lights in my area were also re-phased; they are now red at every stage, on the main DC out of west Portsmouth (used to be all green).

Found this

Richard Ottaway Tory MP said:

It is obvious to anyone who drives in London that congestion on the Capital's roads has become worse in recent months. Many traffic lights appear to have been re-programmed to have shorter green phases and longer red phases.

OR this

CfIT said:

Raising with TfL officials concern over traffic management in central London, most notably changes in traffic lights phasing which had caused significant increases in congestion and journey times.

And finally this

RAC foundation said:

In response to RAC Foundation campaigning, the introduction of the central London congestion charge was accompanied by a re-phasing of traffic lights to increase traffic flows within the charging zone and on the ‘inner ring road’, as well as the introduction of 200 new buses within central London. Early indications are that a significant reduction in traffic and congestion has been achieved within the charge zone.

And now we face the prospect of an extension to the congestion zone, as well as a national rollout of the scheme.


Go figure

[Sponge Bob]

They make the green lights shorter, red lights longer, so when the time is right - and we're all finally at the end of our tether - they make up some story about how they've rennovated systems etc... then just put the lights to how they should be, i.e. at a somewhat efficient rate - and bam, traffic reduces bcos were not all sat at red lights twiddling our thumbs.