Pc convicted of careless driving
Discussion
I know pensioners can be 'dippy' but this has to be a factor, no?
"The court heard how the couple stepped out from behind parked cars at the junction of Grand Parade and Trinity Place, right into the path of Richards' Ford Focus vehicle. "
Prosecutor said:
"You did not adjust your speed appropriately. I suggest that the proof that you were going too fast is that you failed to see two pedestrians who had made their way two thirds of the way across the road before you did see them."
She said:
"I remember the Lloyds becoming visible in the middle of the road," Richards said.
"The only thing I remember was wishing them to stop [but] they kept walking.
"They never looked at me and they did not see me coming.
"By that time I was already braking and trying to avoid them.
Sounds like she was 'offered up'
"The court heard how the couple stepped out from behind parked cars at the junction of Grand Parade and Trinity Place, right into the path of Richards' Ford Focus vehicle. "
Prosecutor said:
"You did not adjust your speed appropriately. I suggest that the proof that you were going too fast is that you failed to see two pedestrians who had made their way two thirds of the way across the road before you did see them."
She said:
"I remember the Lloyds becoming visible in the middle of the road," Richards said.
"The only thing I remember was wishing them to stop [but] they kept walking.
"They never looked at me and they did not see me coming.
"By that time I was already braking and trying to avoid them.
Sounds like she was 'offered up'
Forget that she was a PC for a moment. What would you or I have got if we'd done the same thing?
Decided? OK. Now bring the PC back in.
Now, the PC should get at least that, then arguably more because (a) she's supposedly better trained than us (b) should be setting an example.
Whether or not the old couple stepped out without looking, she should have anticipated that and been driving accordingly.
And as the advert goes, 'If she's been going at 30mph she'd have stopped HERE'.
QED, sorry. Nicked.
Decided? OK. Now bring the PC back in.
Now, the PC should get at least that, then arguably more because (a) she's supposedly better trained than us (b) should be setting an example.
Whether or not the old couple stepped out without looking, she should have anticipated that and been driving accordingly.
And as the advert goes, 'If she's been going at 30mph she'd have stopped HERE'.
QED, sorry. Nicked.
simpo two said:
Forget that she was a PC for a moment. What would you or I have got if we'd done the same thing?
Decided? OK. Now bring the PC back in.
Now, the PC should get at least that, then arguably more because (a) she's supposedly better trained than us (b) should be setting an example.
Whether or not the old couple stepped out without looking, she should have anticipated that and been driving accordingly.
And as the advert goes, 'If she's been going at 30mph she'd have stopped HERE'.
QED, sorry. Nicked.
The fundemental difference is she was driving a marked police car with its siren and lights on. She could therefore expect people to see and hear her coming. She was responding to a 999 call (which turned out to be a hoax) and would have been anxious to get there as quickly as possible.
We all complain about police response times, and if we do we can't then complain if they are occasionally involved in accidents waiting to get to us.
Lets assume the circumstances were slightly different and your elderly relative had found an intruder in their home. and a neighbour called 999. Would you want the police to drive within the speed limit to get to the incident, particularly if it added 5 or 10 minutes to the journey?
I want a fast response to 999 calls please, and if occasionally people get killed or hurt in the process that it s unfortunate, but at present I donlt believe that the number of people killed in accidents emercency vehicles is excessive.
chrisgr31 said:
The fundemental difference is she was driving a marked police car with its siren and lights on. She could therefore expect people to see and hear her coming. She was responding to a 999 call (which turned out to be a hoax) and would have been anxious to get there as quickly as possible.
We all complain about police response times, and if we do we can't then complain if they are occasionally involved in accidents waiting to get to us.
Lets assume the circumstances were slightly different and your elderly relative had found an intruder in their home. and a neighbour called 999. Would you want the police to drive within the speed limit to get to the incident, particularly if it added 5 or 10 minutes to the journey?
I want a fast response to 999 calls please, and if occasionally people get killed or hurt in the process that it s unfortunate, but at present I donlt believe that the number of people killed in accidents emercency vehicles is excessive.
shame on you. your assumptions and some of your comments are absolutely deplorable. the underlying arrogance and blatant disregard you show for other people lives is shocking.
>> Edited by Rob_T on Friday 3rd February 17:07
Unfortunate as it all is, the old people, or anyone who walks out onto a road should have the fore thought to pay attention.
As a child i had the green cross code drummed into me, to pay attention to the traffic and to remember that cars are dangerous and could kill.
The situation appears to be reversed now, as it is the responsibility of the drivers to watch for pedestrians encroaching onto the road.
It does not make sense, and a level of re thought is required for how all road rules are enforced.
As a child i had the green cross code drummed into me, to pay attention to the traffic and to remember that cars are dangerous and could kill.
The situation appears to be reversed now, as it is the responsibility of the drivers to watch for pedestrians encroaching onto the road.
It does not make sense, and a level of re thought is required for how all road rules are enforced.
Rob_T said:
shame on you. your assumptions and some of your comments are absolutely deplorable. the underlying arrogance and blatant disregard you show for other people lives is shocking.
A bit strong Rob, he made some valid points. How many would die or be injured if the police had to keep to the speed limit while responding to an emergency?
Rob_T said:
shame on you. your assumptions and some of your comments are absolutely deplorable. the underlying arrogance and blatant disregard you show for other people lives is shocking.
Which assumptions?
No blatant disregard for other peoples lives, as I am considering the lives of those who have called 999 or had 999 called on their behalf.
The police have a difficult enough job to do without us making it worse.
Ermm
If the same couple got run down on train tracks, would the train driver be prosecuted??
Roads are for vehicles.
Pavements are for pedestrians.
Pedestrian crossings are there for pedestrians who wish to cross the road.
Reading the report, the couple were not using a crossing, they crossed the road, walking out from between parked cars.
Although I don`t condone speeding in built up areas, the PC was on an emergency with, I presume, lights and sirens. It`s high time motorists (of all types)weren`t blamed for every accident. At least part of the blame in this case must fall to the victims(green cross code)???
All IMHO of course.
If the same couple got run down on train tracks, would the train driver be prosecuted??
Roads are for vehicles.
Pavements are for pedestrians.
Pedestrian crossings are there for pedestrians who wish to cross the road.
Reading the report, the couple were not using a crossing, they crossed the road, walking out from between parked cars.
Although I don`t condone speeding in built up areas, the PC was on an emergency with, I presume, lights and sirens. It`s high time motorists (of all types)weren`t blamed for every accident. At least part of the blame in this case must fall to the victims(green cross code)???
All IMHO of course.
[quote=chrisgr31
I want a fast response to 999 calls please, and if occasionally people get killed or hurt in the process that it s unfortunate, but at present I donlt believe that the number of people killed in accidents emercency vehicles is excessive.[/quote]
Good God, that took the wind out of my sails a bit.
Let me tell you all a little story. My mother-in-law, who's a great old bird really, is very houseproud indeed. Her entire life runs around keeping her ordinary semi absolutely immaculate. Sad but true. She is also one of lifes great worriers, and comes up with things to worry about that oftem my imagination hadn't stretched too.
She was always worried about security, and I had long thought, and had mentioned to wifey, if that ever her home was broken into I doubted very much if she would survive the shock. F'rinstance she used to put several broom handles, a stool and a spin dryer against the back door alone when she bwent out.
However the year before last her home was broken into. She'd only gone next door for a cup of tea when she heard sounds from her house. She and the neighbour ran round, and distubed the youths who had broke in and who fled. They got in - and out - by diving through a 2' sqaure window in the back door. They had scattered loads of her belongings all over the place, but didn't get away with much 'cos she's literally too nervous to keep anything of value. She doesn't even own a video player, because of the lcd readout which is a magnet to thieves, apparently.
To make matters worse, we were away on holiday. We are her only near family, but once we'd heard about it we got friends to call round and I got my plumber/handyman mate round to make her property safe.
The police were brilliant. They took their time arriving, but as m-i-l said, "I could hear sirens all over the place." What was happening was that the bib were after them, they chased them down and caught them. Thats why they didn't turn up at the property straight away. They got the scumbags bang to rights and they've since been done.
So, how has mother-in-law coped? Amazingly, and against all my expectations, she's coped extraordinarily well, and in fact the whole episode is largely forgotten and hardly talked about. She's seems to have put the whole episode behind her. I guess at the end of the day, nothing of any value was lost, but more than that, no-one was hurt, her family are safe, everyone is in good health, there is nothing to worry about. A few material goods can easily be replaced. The shock of the intrusion into her home was balanced by the fact that all sorts of people, including our friends who she hardly knows, either phoned or visited shortly afterwards to see that she was alright. Even though we weren't there she was inundated with help and sympathy.
But what if the police had killed somebody in responding to the call? Worse, what if it was somebody of the same generation as m-i-l, what if someone had been widdowed as a result of her call to the police? We would have been devestated, and the whole episode would never be able to be forgotten. You simply cannot put lives at risk to save a few quids worth of material goods. There really is little excuse for the police to risk the lives of the public they are charged with protecting. Violent crime perhaps is the only justification.
I'm very grateful to the police for their efforts, very grateful indeed, but I wouldn't have wanted anyone to risk anybodies life in the pursuit of three ferral youths (except the lives of the youths themselves, natch.)
I do feel sorry for both parties in the case we're discussing. I have great sympathy for the family of the deceased and of the wpc and her family. Its all very sad. But you can't, as someone posted, "expect" people to behave in a certain way, they must -we all must - drive to the conditions and to what is actually happening, not what one would expect or assume will happen. Thats the root cause of the accident, possibly.
The elderly, and/or the very young, the infirm, blind, ill or whatever, have as much right to go about their business as much as anyone, and its up to all of us to make allowances for them. IMO.
I want a fast response to 999 calls please, and if occasionally people get killed or hurt in the process that it s unfortunate, but at present I donlt believe that the number of people killed in accidents emercency vehicles is excessive.[/quote]
Good God, that took the wind out of my sails a bit.
Let me tell you all a little story. My mother-in-law, who's a great old bird really, is very houseproud indeed. Her entire life runs around keeping her ordinary semi absolutely immaculate. Sad but true. She is also one of lifes great worriers, and comes up with things to worry about that oftem my imagination hadn't stretched too.
She was always worried about security, and I had long thought, and had mentioned to wifey, if that ever her home was broken into I doubted very much if she would survive the shock. F'rinstance she used to put several broom handles, a stool and a spin dryer against the back door alone when she bwent out.
However the year before last her home was broken into. She'd only gone next door for a cup of tea when she heard sounds from her house. She and the neighbour ran round, and distubed the youths who had broke in and who fled. They got in - and out - by diving through a 2' sqaure window in the back door. They had scattered loads of her belongings all over the place, but didn't get away with much 'cos she's literally too nervous to keep anything of value. She doesn't even own a video player, because of the lcd readout which is a magnet to thieves, apparently.
To make matters worse, we were away on holiday. We are her only near family, but once we'd heard about it we got friends to call round and I got my plumber/handyman mate round to make her property safe.
The police were brilliant. They took their time arriving, but as m-i-l said, "I could hear sirens all over the place." What was happening was that the bib were after them, they chased them down and caught them. Thats why they didn't turn up at the property straight away. They got the scumbags bang to rights and they've since been done.
So, how has mother-in-law coped? Amazingly, and against all my expectations, she's coped extraordinarily well, and in fact the whole episode is largely forgotten and hardly talked about. She's seems to have put the whole episode behind her. I guess at the end of the day, nothing of any value was lost, but more than that, no-one was hurt, her family are safe, everyone is in good health, there is nothing to worry about. A few material goods can easily be replaced. The shock of the intrusion into her home was balanced by the fact that all sorts of people, including our friends who she hardly knows, either phoned or visited shortly afterwards to see that she was alright. Even though we weren't there she was inundated with help and sympathy.
But what if the police had killed somebody in responding to the call? Worse, what if it was somebody of the same generation as m-i-l, what if someone had been widdowed as a result of her call to the police? We would have been devestated, and the whole episode would never be able to be forgotten. You simply cannot put lives at risk to save a few quids worth of material goods. There really is little excuse for the police to risk the lives of the public they are charged with protecting. Violent crime perhaps is the only justification.
I'm very grateful to the police for their efforts, very grateful indeed, but I wouldn't have wanted anyone to risk anybodies life in the pursuit of three ferral youths (except the lives of the youths themselves, natch.)
I do feel sorry for both parties in the case we're discussing. I have great sympathy for the family of the deceased and of the wpc and her family. Its all very sad. But you can't, as someone posted, "expect" people to behave in a certain way, they must -we all must - drive to the conditions and to what is actually happening, not what one would expect or assume will happen. Thats the root cause of the accident, possibly.
The elderly, and/or the very young, the infirm, blind, ill or whatever, have as much right to go about their business as much as anyone, and its up to all of us to make allowances for them. IMO.
Blind, deaf, young, old, wheel chair.
There is a certain responsibility for everyone to manage their own safety as well as others to manage it for them.
It doesn't matter how well trained drivers are, or how good cars are in a crash with pedestrians, the primary protection is that which you utilise first, your common sense.
Were they deaf they could have looked, blind they would have heard, deaf and blind, well they'd have no hope crossing a road.
I can't really say I blame the police driver on the face of it. Ultimately it could have been bank robbers in a car speeding down the road with a police car following.
The precursor to the accident was people walking into the road without observing.
We've already had a good old chat about the guy in the advert pulling out of the road looking but not seeing the biker, so why is this above much different. If people walk into the path of passing traffic how is it anyone's fault? It sounds as if the old people didn't even look?
Still, very sad, but where are the sensible heads here?
Dave
There is a certain responsibility for everyone to manage their own safety as well as others to manage it for them.
It doesn't matter how well trained drivers are, or how good cars are in a crash with pedestrians, the primary protection is that which you utilise first, your common sense.
Were they deaf they could have looked, blind they would have heard, deaf and blind, well they'd have no hope crossing a road.
I can't really say I blame the police driver on the face of it. Ultimately it could have been bank robbers in a car speeding down the road with a police car following.
The precursor to the accident was people walking into the road without observing.
We've already had a good old chat about the guy in the advert pulling out of the road looking but not seeing the biker, so why is this above much different. If people walk into the path of passing traffic how is it anyone's fault? It sounds as if the old people didn't even look?
Still, very sad, but where are the sensible heads here?
Dave
I don't know all the circumstances, but from where it says that they stepped out behind a parked car, surely they should have remembered the green cross code? I think that the police should be allowed to do whatever speeds they like attending to an emergency, as they are trained to do so, and the lights and sirens heighten the fact that they are doing that.
If they hadn't have walked out in front of the car then it wouldn't have happened.
I'm sorry if my comments upset anybody but its just the way I feel, nowadays people just dont look as often before they cross the roads, and they should be taught to. IMO
If they hadn't have walked out in front of the car then it wouldn't have happened.
I'm sorry if my comments upset anybody but its just the way I feel, nowadays people just dont look as often before they cross the roads, and they should be taught to. IMO
Nowhere in any Police Driver Training manual will you see a statement that a 999 call justifies unnecessary risks. One of Roadcraft's defining principles is that you should "always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear".
I'm told that the trick is to get the speed down in places where there are lots of hazards and up when it is relatively hazard free.
I'm sorry. She couldn't stop. She is bang to rights. Everytime this happens it reinforces the public view that police drivers are crap.
I'm told that the trick is to get the speed down in places where there are lots of hazards and up when it is relatively hazard free.
I'm sorry. She couldn't stop. She is bang to rights. Everytime this happens it reinforces the public view that police drivers are crap.
If they've walked out behind the parked car, presumably they were "this side" of the wpc and she should have seen them. I think the fact the she said she hadn't seen them until they were in the middle of the road is what done for her. Alos, only on e reopt, an earlier one, mentioned lights and sirens so are we sure they were on? Remember the 159mph cop didn't even realise his video was recording, so they're not always as in control as they should be.
I'm really annoyed about her driving ban, though. WTF is that about? I think that is absolutely terrible, I just cannot see the justificatiopn in that. Hardly likely to make her a better driver, is it?
I'm really annoyed about her driving ban, though. WTF is that about? I think that is absolutely terrible, I just cannot see the justificatiopn in that. Hardly likely to make her a better driver, is it?
volvos70t5 said:
Nowhere in any Police Driver Training manual will you see a statement that a 999 call justifies unnecessary risks. One of Roadcraft's defining principles is that you should "always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear".
I'm told that the trick is to get the speed down in places where there are lots of hazards and up when it is relatively hazard free.
I'm sorry. She couldn't stop. She is bang to rights. Everytime this happens it reinforces the public view that police drivers are crap.
Sums it up for me.
Thanks T5dude.
Steve
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