Xenon /HID lights legality
Discussion
All Xenon's are technically illegal under UK law (because they're not specifically allowed).
However, if the *system* (ie lights, wash and leveling) is factory fitted then it can carry a European Type Approval, and, as we all know, anything European overrides UK law. Same applies to LED rear lights, lights that flash under heavy braking, fog lights used as cornering lights etc.
Even if the whole system is fitted after manufacture then it's still a grey area as to whether it's legal or not.
However, if the *system* (ie lights, wash and leveling) is factory fitted then it can carry a European Type Approval, and, as we all know, anything European overrides UK law. Same applies to LED rear lights, lights that flash under heavy braking, fog lights used as cornering lights etc.
Even if the whole system is fitted after manufacture then it's still a grey area as to whether it's legal or not.
angrys3owner said:
Yes it's technically true they need to self level and have washers from my understanding of the rules.
Am I right in thinking that Porsche got away without this on the 997 (or maybe just Turbo or GT3) due to the fact the suspension was rigid enough to prevent glare under acceleration?
deva link said:
All Xenon's are technically illegal under UK law (because they're not specifically allowed).
However, if the *system* (ie lights, wash and leveling) is factory fitted then it can carry a European Type Approval, and, as we all know, anything European overrides UK law. Same applies to LED rear lights, lights that flash under heavy braking, fog lights used as cornering lights etc.
Even if the whole system is fitted after manufacture then it's still a grey area as to whether it's legal or not.
However, if the *system* (ie lights, wash and leveling) is factory fitted then it can carry a European Type Approval, and, as we all know, anything European overrides UK law. Same applies to LED rear lights, lights that flash under heavy braking, fog lights used as cornering lights etc.
Even if the whole system is fitted after manufacture then it's still a grey area as to whether it's legal or not.
My Evo has HID lights, (standard fit on an VIII MR) but DOESN'T have auto levelling (it's manual) and DOESN'T have a wash feature.
Does this mean it's dodgy?
Steve
AFAIK the law only applies to new cars sold after a certain date.
Besides the odds on being stopped by a real life copper (unless you are doing 150 mph lol) are about zero
www.hids4u.co.uk come recommended
Besides the odds on being stopped by a real life copper (unless you are doing 150 mph lol) are about zero
www.hids4u.co.uk come recommended
wmg100 said:
This guy is 100% correct. ECE (European standards) compliant complete headlamp units are fine (there are few good aftermarket ones out there now from Hella etc), but the retrofit kits that just involve swapping the OE Halogen bulbs with HID bulbs and ballast are not legal anywhere in the developed world.
uberscruff said:
wmg100 said:
This guy is 100% correct. ECE (European standards) compliant complete headlamp units are fine (there are few good aftermarket ones out there now from Hella etc), but the retrofit kits that just involve swapping the OE Halogen bulbs with HID bulbs and ballast are not legal anywhere in the developed world.
..but they're certainly still illegal in the UK (and probably the rest of Europe) without wash and level. It's uncertain whether any non-factroy fitted kit is legal, because the car would be different from it's original Type Approval.
This is all a bit theoretical though - I doubt that anybody is going to get done, unless, say, the Police took the car apart after a serious accident.
deva link said:
All Xenon's are technically illegal under UK law (because they're not specifically allowed).
However, if the *system* (ie lights, wash and leveling) is factory fitted then it can carry a European Type Approval, and, as we all know, anything European overrides UK law. Same applies to LED rear lights, lights that flash under heavy braking, fog lights used as cornering lights etc.
Even if the whole system is fitted after manufacture then it's still a grey area as to whether it's legal or not.
However, if the *system* (ie lights, wash and leveling) is factory fitted then it can carry a European Type Approval, and, as we all know, anything European overrides UK law. Same applies to LED rear lights, lights that flash under heavy braking, fog lights used as cornering lights etc.
Even if the whole system is fitted after manufacture then it's still a grey area as to whether it's legal or not.
Given that European law isUK law once implemented, manufacturer-fitted xenons and LEDs are clearly not illegal in the UK.
Zod said:
deva link said:
All Xenon's are technically illegal under UK law (because they're not specifically allowed).
However, if the *system* (ie lights, wash and leveling) is factory fitted then it can carry a European Type Approval, and, as we all know, anything European overrides UK law. Same applies to LED rear lights, lights that flash under heavy braking, fog lights used as cornering lights etc.
Even if the whole system is fitted after manufacture then it's still a grey area as to whether it's legal or not.
However, if the *system* (ie lights, wash and leveling) is factory fitted then it can carry a European Type Approval, and, as we all know, anything European overrides UK law. Same applies to LED rear lights, lights that flash under heavy braking, fog lights used as cornering lights etc.
Even if the whole system is fitted after manufacture then it's still a grey area as to whether it's legal or not.
Given that European law isUK law once implemented, manufacturer-fitted xenons and LEDs are clearly not illegal in the UK.
No it's not - it has to be enacted in each individual country. At the moment, that is - of course the EU Commission would dearly like to change that.
deva link said:
Zod said:
deva link said:
All Xenon's are technically illegal under UK law (because they're not specifically allowed).
However, if the *system* (ie lights, wash and leveling) is factory fitted then it can carry a European Type Approval, and, as we all know, anything European overrides UK law. Same applies to LED rear lights, lights that flash under heavy braking, fog lights used as cornering lights etc.
Even if the whole system is fitted after manufacture then it's still a grey area as to whether it's legal or not.
However, if the *system* (ie lights, wash and leveling) is factory fitted then it can carry a European Type Approval, and, as we all know, anything European overrides UK law. Same applies to LED rear lights, lights that flash under heavy braking, fog lights used as cornering lights etc.
Even if the whole system is fitted after manufacture then it's still a grey area as to whether it's legal or not.
Given that European law isUK law once implemented, manufacturer-fitted xenons and LEDs are clearly not illegal in the UK.
No it's not - it has to be enacted in each individual country. At the moment, that is - of course the EU Commission would dearly like to change that.
Yes, that's what "implementation" means. I have a little knowledge of these things having consulted with the FSA and teheTreasury on the implementation of the Financial Services Action Plan Directives!
Zod said:
deva link said:
Zod said:
deva link said:
All Xenon's are technically illegal under UK law (because they're not specifically allowed).
However, if the *system* (ie lights, wash and leveling) is factory fitted then it can carry a European Type Approval, and, as we all know, anything European overrides UK law. Same applies to LED rear lights, lights that flash under heavy braking, fog lights used as cornering lights etc.
Even if the whole system is fitted after manufacture then it's still a grey area as to whether it's legal or not.
However, if the *system* (ie lights, wash and leveling) is factory fitted then it can carry a European Type Approval, and, as we all know, anything European overrides UK law. Same applies to LED rear lights, lights that flash under heavy braking, fog lights used as cornering lights etc.
Even if the whole system is fitted after manufacture then it's still a grey area as to whether it's legal or not.
Given that European law isUK law once implemented, manufacturer-fitted xenons and LEDs are clearly not illegal in the UK.
No it's not - it has to be enacted in each individual country. At the moment, that is - of course the EU Commission would dearly like to change that.
Yes, that's what "implementation" means. I have a little knowledge of these things having consulted with the FSA and teheTreasury on the implementation of the Financial Services Action Plan Directives!
Ah, OK - ISWYM. There's a letter from the DfT here www.tyresmoke.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=1,2,12,15,22,25,26,27,3&Number=118476&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
which perhaps explains better. It is a few yrs old now, so maybe the law has caught up.
bleesh said:
deva link said:
All Xenon's are technically illegal under UK law (because they're not specifically allowed).
However, if the *system* (ie lights, wash and leveling) is factory fitted then it can carry a European Type Approval, and, as we all know, anything European overrides UK law. Same applies to LED rear lights, lights that flash under heavy braking, fog lights used as cornering lights etc.
Even if the whole system is fitted after manufacture then it's still a grey area as to whether it's legal or not.
However, if the *system* (ie lights, wash and leveling) is factory fitted then it can carry a European Type Approval, and, as we all know, anything European overrides UK law. Same applies to LED rear lights, lights that flash under heavy braking, fog lights used as cornering lights etc.
Even if the whole system is fitted after manufacture then it's still a grey area as to whether it's legal or not.
My Evo has HID lights, (standard fit on an VIII MR) but DOESN'T have auto levelling (it's manual) and DOESN'T have a wash feature.
Does this mean it's dodgy?
Steve
Nope, the car was probably brought in via SVA so doesn't need the European Type Approval, hence no need for auto self levelling
ok, there's a lot of rubbish floating around at the Internet.
The EU law has a grey area. It mentions that cars WHICH ARE OE EQUIPPED with HID lightsources should have auto leveler and wash installation as standard.
This clearly DOES NOT mention cars which have aftermarket HID kits. (and sorry, but if the law doesn't tell you not to do something, you are entitled to use it, it's not vice versa!)
A proper HID kit (and I don't mean the cheap shite which you can buy from Ebay) has automotive approvals and is allowed to be fitted on a vehicle from a technical point of view.
A proper kit also has a proper lamp which is positioned correctly and which creates a correct light pattern for road use.
Looking at it from a non-technical point of view, the HID lamps are nothing more then bulbs which generate around 2,5x the amount of light compared to a proper Halogen bulb. There is no legal reason to stop people installing them. (mind you, the 100 Watt bulbs are not illegal because of the light output!) There are differences in the way the light is coming from the lamp, but as mentioned, this is from a non-technical pov.
Using this grey area in the EU law, it means that ANY lightsource -except for higher current items- is legal as long as it generates a proper light pattern. (so it should not flare etc.)
You've got to keep in mind that there's several camps in this powergame:
- One is the aftermarket group which uses the grey area and sells proper kits which carry correct approvals and are technically equivalent to a standard bulb.
- Two is the Hella / Valeo ~like people. These are huge companies who are able to influence politics. They want to stop the aftermarket people as their kits are marketed for an extremely low price compared to the Hella prices.
- Three is the pikeys who sell utter rubbish at Ebay etc. These are kits which are mostly sold by smaller Chinese companies who are willing to deal with anyone and to sell kit in every quantity. We regularly get offers from these kind of companies. At this moment, the price level for these kind of kits is ranging from 40 to 60 USD for a kit(!)
The big companies are using the cheap non compliant products to prove their point in politics. I've seen more then 50 different kits. Some of them where these cheap kits. The isolation was a problem in some cases (I could feel them starting up
) and in most cases, the bulbs where way out of range. Other problems were rapid discolouring, short lifetime etc. etc.
Does it surprise anyone that the auto-levelers and washer systems are a mind-product of the big multinationals? The auto levelers do not improve safety as they cannot level in milliseconds (too much mass to be moved) and because they are relative to the position of the car on the road. If the road goes down, ANYONE with ANY leveler will blind upcoming traffic.
The washer installation is a laugh! Have you ever tried to clean a dirty car with a jetwash? The dirt doesn't get away! Same goes for the high pressure washers which are demanded by the EU law
Some countries have overruled EU law to stop aftermarket kits. Kind of a surprise: Germany was number one In holland, goverment first decided to forbid anything aftermarket on any car. After some legal actions from existing owners, they have decided to declare kit illegal on any car which is registered after 1-7-2006.
The multinationals are pushing hard to stop the aftermarket suppliers and unfortunately, the cheap kits won't disappear as people *think* they can do a good deal. (think further!) At the end, I think the multinationals will win, but they will not be able to pull anything that has already been installed from the road.
So.. as long as you are using a proper kit, don't worry about the plod pulling you over. As long as you don't blind other people by a bad kit or incorrect installation, nobody will stop you.
The EU law has a grey area. It mentions that cars WHICH ARE OE EQUIPPED with HID lightsources should have auto leveler and wash installation as standard.
This clearly DOES NOT mention cars which have aftermarket HID kits. (and sorry, but if the law doesn't tell you not to do something, you are entitled to use it, it's not vice versa!)
A proper HID kit (and I don't mean the cheap shite which you can buy from Ebay) has automotive approvals and is allowed to be fitted on a vehicle from a technical point of view.
A proper kit also has a proper lamp which is positioned correctly and which creates a correct light pattern for road use.
Looking at it from a non-technical point of view, the HID lamps are nothing more then bulbs which generate around 2,5x the amount of light compared to a proper Halogen bulb. There is no legal reason to stop people installing them. (mind you, the 100 Watt bulbs are not illegal because of the light output!) There are differences in the way the light is coming from the lamp, but as mentioned, this is from a non-technical pov.
Using this grey area in the EU law, it means that ANY lightsource -except for higher current items- is legal as long as it generates a proper light pattern. (so it should not flare etc.)
You've got to keep in mind that there's several camps in this powergame:
- One is the aftermarket group which uses the grey area and sells proper kits which carry correct approvals and are technically equivalent to a standard bulb.
- Two is the Hella / Valeo ~like people. These are huge companies who are able to influence politics. They want to stop the aftermarket people as their kits are marketed for an extremely low price compared to the Hella prices.
- Three is the pikeys who sell utter rubbish at Ebay etc. These are kits which are mostly sold by smaller Chinese companies who are willing to deal with anyone and to sell kit in every quantity. We regularly get offers from these kind of companies. At this moment, the price level for these kind of kits is ranging from 40 to 60 USD for a kit(!)
The big companies are using the cheap non compliant products to prove their point in politics. I've seen more then 50 different kits. Some of them where these cheap kits. The isolation was a problem in some cases (I could feel them starting up
) and in most cases, the bulbs where way out of range. Other problems were rapid discolouring, short lifetime etc. etc. Does it surprise anyone that the auto-levelers and washer systems are a mind-product of the big multinationals? The auto levelers do not improve safety as they cannot level in milliseconds (too much mass to be moved) and because they are relative to the position of the car on the road. If the road goes down, ANYONE with ANY leveler will blind upcoming traffic.
The washer installation is a laugh! Have you ever tried to clean a dirty car with a jetwash? The dirt doesn't get away! Same goes for the high pressure washers which are demanded by the EU law
Some countries have overruled EU law to stop aftermarket kits. Kind of a surprise: Germany was number one
In holland, goverment first decided to forbid anything aftermarket on any car. After some legal actions from existing owners, they have decided to declare kit illegal on any car which is registered after 1-7-2006. The multinationals are pushing hard to stop the aftermarket suppliers and unfortunately, the cheap kits won't disappear as people *think* they can do a good deal. (think further!) At the end, I think the multinationals will win, but they will not be able to pull anything that has already been installed from the road.
So.. as long as you are using a proper kit, don't worry about the plod pulling you over. As long as you don't blind other people by a bad kit or incorrect installation, nobody will stop you.
YvoTuk said:
ok, there's a lot of rubbish floating around at the Internet.
Quite true, but by what authority do you speak?
YvoTuk said:
(and sorry, but if the law doesn't tell you not to do something, you are entitled to use it, it's not vice versa!)
UK law says lamps fitted to vehicles must be filament lamps. This therefore makes all HID lamps illegal.
deva link said:
Quite true, but by what authority do you speak?
You can put me in the 'group One' bracket. I've spent months communicating with RDW (say.. the Dutch DVLA). We had discussions with people who are actually responsible for vehicle type approval procedures. These people have explained the situation from a legal point of view.
First reaction from these people was "Anything which is not original voids the type approval" ...but... if we would push to enforce this, we'd have to go for kind of a "black and white" law enforcement which would not be unpractical, but completely impossible!
For instance:
A Lotus Elise S1 running anything else then Pirelli P Zero's with legal thread depth would per definition be illegal.
The Yokohama Advan Neova tyre which was recommended by Lotus theirselves has not been added to the original type approval and could therefore be classified as illegal. Hence the reason why Lotus advertised them as "Track use only".
Erm.. small problem: the Pirelli PZero is obsolete for quite a while already, so the idea should be to scrap every Lotus Elise S1 which runs out of thread??
Type Approvals and definitions of what's illegal and what's not are very complex matters.
Local authorities can overcome specific problems by creating very specific vehicle equipment laws, these are separated from the Type approval and can therefore be used to overcome grey area's.
However.. as seen in Holland, even a government cannot dictate people to throw away their investments because they want to make their point. If some law like that is installed, it will be for installations in the future, not for existing installation.
*unless you're talking about specific devices which are used to fool the system like radar detectors. Government seem to push a little harder in that area
* Besides that, we've had a huge pile of kits on our testbench to test performance, isolation, protection etc of these kits.
So yeah, I think I know what's available on the market and I think I quite well know what's rubbish and what's not.
As for the fillaments, if it was that simple.. don't you think governments would have simply pointed buyers at this and told them to remove the products?
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