Should winter tyres be made compulsory in the UK?

[beanbag]

As many of you know, it is compulsory to use winter tyres in a lot of European countries:

France
Switzerland
Austria
Italy
Finland
Latvia
Norway
Sweden
Slovenia
Germany

In Vienna where I live, it's actually quite rare to have snow and this year has been quite unusual in terms of quantity, however it's 100% compulsory to use winter tyres on your car from the 1st November of each year.

Failing to use winter rubber can (and most likely), will result in your insurance being void in the event of an accident, even if the conditions are dry.

After seeing absolute chaos in the UK for the past three years, I'm wondering how people would react if winter tyres were made compulsory for ALL car drivers. For us living in Austria, it works out at about 800eur for a full set of top quality tyres on steel rims, although it's perfectly possible to get alloys too.

Keep in mind, winter tyres don't just apply to snow. They offer massively improved traction and grip levels at temperatures under 7C, rain, debris and ice. All of this is very common in the UK throughout the winter season.

Whilst I was driving my car in the UK, I was I able to negotiate snow covered motorways at 70mph without any problems whereas cars were spinning off at 30-40mph, etc, etc......

What's the opinion here?

[beanbag]

Just thought I'd add.....if you vote "no", what are your reasons for it?

After talking to a friend in the UK, he told me he wouldn't want to "ruin the look of his car".....

[beanbag]

SVTRick said:

Why ?

I have had no issues in the current weather.

Ranger 4x4
X5 Diesel
32ton 4 axle tanker

Unless you have the right rubber (which perhaps you do without knowing), a big car makes no difference in the snow. The same goes for wet and icy conditions.

It's mostly down to the rubber you have fitted.

[beanbag]

In my 23 years living in the UK, I have vivid memories of it being rather cold (far less than 10C), for more than a couple of months.

In fact, according to the BBC Weather website, the maximum average of London is below 7C from December to February:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/world/city_guides/res...

However, as I also mentioned, winter tyres offer massively improved levels of grip in the wet. Even I remember the UK is famed for this!

[beanbag]

A lot of people are mentioning cost. I quoted 800eur for a full set of tyres however I chose top quality rubber for my car and you can get a reasonable set for about half that.

On top of this, the tyres can last up to 5 seasons (probably 3 in my case due to the amount of driving I do).

With regards to storage, my garage takes care of this including fitting for just €58 per year.

And with regards to enforcing this. If the countries I listed above can do it, why can't the UK?

[beanbag]

Herbs said:

NO NO NO NO NO NO & NO

Without being rude we get on average a max of 14 days a year where it is snowy or icy (Scotland excluded). What is it with everyone i know (esp people at work and a few on here) that now want to own a 4x4 and are looking to buy one in the next month to replace their current car.

Give it 2 weeks and all this weather will be forgotten.

As for rushing through new legislations, it would only be a knee jerk reaction. The fact we are running out of energy at the moment (see news today) worries me far more than a few ungritted roads....

Winter tyres are not specific to snow or ice. They offer massively improved grip in the wet, especially when the temperature is under 7C.

In the far south (London), this is the maximum average for three months of the year.

In fact, the climate in London is very similar to that of Vienna.

[beanbag]

J B L said:

Voted "no". No need to create further expenses to the masses for the few idiots who can't control their right foot when conditions change.

By the way, as many of us know, your list is quite off:
- France: not compulsory unless the "Prefet" (MP) says its necessary for a short period of time, snowable areas require you carry chains at all time.
- Switzerland: not compulsory but police will hold you responsible if winter tyres could have prevented the accident (goes back to car control). Your insurance could also take you to court to get their money back.
- Your beloved Austria-that-is-so-much-better-than-the-UK: It's mandatory to have winter tyres with at least 4mm thread depth on certain roads and mountain passes
- Italy: see France.
- Finland & Sweden: Mandatory from 01/12 to 31/03
- Norway: Mandatory at police's discretion (so you'd better have them on really)
- Can't comment on Latvia but I know that Estonia's got a mandatory policy on winter tyres. (01/12 to 01/03 I think)

Your list of countries are all very "snowable" with proper winters that will last 3 months or more, therefore it is common sense to use winter tyres, the expense is justified. When I lived in Lyon I used to have a set of winter tyres on steel rims that I would put on at first snow or frost and take off when weather got milder. A set of tyre would last me 3 or 4 winters too. If the same was applied in the UK, your set of tyre would last 10 years at least!

My 2p.

With regards to my "so-called" beloved Austria.....

You are utterly wrong. I've no idea where you read this but it's wrong. You need winter tyres from the 1st November until the end of March. Learn your facts. Without it, your insurance will be void.

[beanbag]

MaximumJed said:

No,

I have been looking into winter tyres for my car, and the first thing I have discovered is that nobody makes ones that will fit (315/35R20), so if I can't get a set for an X5, how will people with Lambos etc get a set? I can just about fit a set of 19s on the car, but still can't get the width profile for the rear, meaning that apart from on ice/snow, the handling would actually be compromised the rest of the time that I am driving around.

Also have to agree with previous comments about sourcing an extra set of wheels/tyres and storing them, not really got the space for it here.

Winter tyres aren't so wide because it would be utterly pointless. The wider the tyre, the bigger the chance of aqua-plaining (not sure if that's spelt right). As a result, winter tyres are narrower.

For example on my lowly 1 series, I have a set of 205's for summer tyres and 195's for winter. Many people drive X5's in Europe and the tyres exist. You just need the right wheels to go with it.

With regards to storage. The garage takes care of this for me. I don't have to think about where they are kept. I just hand them over, and pick them up again in the summer in exchange for my winters, etc....

[beanbag]

Engineer1 said:

omgus said:

If my local tyre place would take take the summers off, store them, put winters on, and then reverse the process for a nominal fee/subscription then i would do it already. The reality is that i'd need another set of wheels for the winter tyres and i just can't afford that right now.

I've had no real difficulty on my T1-Rs so i would accept that further driver training/awareness would probably be as good and compulsory winter tyres.

Of course you would be happy if your local tyre place damaged the tyres, the rims or even sold them as part worn by mistake wouldn't you.

Why on earth would this happen!? I know I criticise Britain a lot but I never took the nation as a bunch of thieves....

[beanbag]

900T-R said:

Dooshbag said:

Despite tippy-toeing round on Dunlop SP9000's on 18"s at the mo, I thinkg we should follow the rest of the continent, remember winter tyres are not for snow specifically, but wet weather, and we get more wet weather than all the othe countries who use winter tyres. Bit surprised at the voting outcome TBH...

See the above. Winter tyres only work better than summer tyres below 0 degrees C. From 7 degrees C upwards, there's a huge gulf between the wet handling, braking and aquaplaning performance of summer and winter tyres - to the detriment of the latter.

That's not correct. They work better from 7C.

Very interesting article here: http://www.tyres-online.co.uk/techinfo/winter.asp

[beanbag]

kambites said:

sleep envy said:

it's not a simple case of blanket legislation for the entire UK

But that's exactly what the OP is suggesting.

I'm not suggesting the UK should do anything.

I'm just very curious on the opinions of those on here.

I will however say if I moved back to the UK, I would certainly use winter tyres in winter.

[beanbag]

MaximumJed said:

F i F said:

sleep envy said:

MaximumJed said:

No,

I have been looking into winter tyres for my car, and the first thing I have discovered is that nobody makes ones that will fit (315/35R20), so if I can't get a set for an X5, how will people with Lambos etc get a set? I can just about fit a set of 19s on the car, but still can't get the width profile for the rear, meaning that apart from on ice/snow, the handling would actually be compromised the rest of the time that I am driving around.

Also have to agree with previous comments about sourcing an extra set of wheels/tyres and storing them, not really got the space for it here.

you buy narrower winter tyres

or more to the point make more informed decisions when buying the vehicle in the first place.

To me it seems that a lot of these soft roader drivers complaining about the conditions when they've bought something which, lets face it, is not suitable for conditions which we can and do get from time to time are no better than somebody who buys a vehicle without checking it will fit through their garage door, i.e. muppets.

Sorry if speaking plainly offends but that is really how it comes across. Rapidly losing patience.


:Realises he should have voted no so can drive around on empty back roads while so called driving gods sit cowering in traffic jams on main roads whilst pointing accusingly at the council gritters:

Fuffs off in a huck.




(Not so serious post btw)

Appreciate it's not so serious a post, but I did also say that people with Lambos etc would probably also fail to get the right size tyres for their car, should they be effectively banned from the roads from November to March?

I've seen a few Ferrari's and Porsche's driving around Vienna in winter. They would certainly need winter tyres so if they have them, I'm sure you could get them in the UK.

(I could however be totally wrong and they might simply not care about the legalities as they could pay the fines and recovery costs anyway).

[beanbag]

varsas said:

Fordo said:

mrmr96 said:

I voted No

My reasons are that while I can afford them it would be a big stretch for a lot of people to buy two sets. Also, not everyone has space to store the set they are not using. I also think it would be unenforcable because we have enough problems with unlicenced drivers/untaxed/uninsured cars/no MOT that the chances of policing winter tyres is close to nil. It would be seen as a revnue raising excercise too. (Extra VAT, corporation tax and payroll taxes as tyre companies sell more, make more profit and pay more staff, plus the fines for non-compliance.)

Don't get me wrong, I think owning and using winter tyres is a great idea. The benefits are pretty clear. However I don't think it should be compulsory.

+ 1

i have no problem currently driving in the snow, i just drive for the conditions, and take it all very cautiously. If it gets really bad, id use snow chains.

I dont have space or money for another set of wheels - but id love to be able to!

Also, in this country, i could see loads of ill informed people thinking winter tyres mean they can drive like loonatics in the rain and snow

+1 I could probably afford it and have the space but if it's too bad I can work from home (as I did on Wednesday). I don't even think snow tyres would help me, my car was stuck on Wednesday because the snow was higher then the ground clearance. As for driving in the wet etc they are already bringing in legislation to specify a minimum performance for tyres in poor conditions.

Well, you've got it wrong already. Snow tyres are an altogether different ball-game to winter tyres.

Snow tyres have metal studs embedded within the tyre.

Winter tyres are designed to work better below 7C, and have many grooves to disperse snow and "bite" into the surface for maximum grip.

They are two totally different tyres.....

[beanbag]

MaximumJed said:

sleep envy said:

MaximumJed said:

No,

I have been looking into winter tyres for my car, and the first thing I have discovered is that nobody makes ones that will fit (315/35R20), so if I can't get a set for an X5, how will people with Lambos etc get a set? I can just about fit a set of 19s on the car, but still can't get the width profile for the rear, meaning that apart from on ice/snow, the handling would actually be compromised the rest of the time that I am driving around.

Also have to agree with previous comments about sourcing an extra set of wheels/tyres and storing them, not really got the space for it here.

you buy narrower winter tyres

Surely only narrower tyres to push through the snow, in the wet it wouldn't make a big difference? I also am not sure how much more a 275 would push down than a 315, they are both hugely wide.

Edited by MaximumJed on Friday 8th January 11:09

In wet it makes a huge difference using narrower tyres. Wider tyres "float" on water and the chances of aqua-plaining are much higher. Narrower tyres "cut" through water much better.

[beanbag]

Bugeyeandy said:

I voted No. I've driven on winter tyres (my Italian import Integrale came with them) and contrary to the majority of posts on here they weren't the wonder tyre everyone seems to think.
They are without a doubt the crappest tyre ever on dry roads including cold dry roads and any hint of the sun warming the tarmac caused them to squeal comedy style at slow speeds around rounabouts and the like.
I kept them on over winter when I first got the car and to be honest they didn't make much difference, my mk3 Astra GSi was just as capable of pulling itself out of a slippery side road onto a clear main road.

I did find however that the Integrale was transformed when I fitted some decent all season performance tyres.

Blanket legislation would just see everyone buying the crappest, cheapest winter tyres and wheels available and driving totally inappropriately for the conditions expecting their "magic" winter tyres to save them.

No for this country , no for compulsory. Thankyou

Do you know what tyres were fitted?

Like summer tyres, if you buy crap winter tyres, they are next to useless....

[beanbag]

This has so far worked out to be a very interesting thread.

A good mix of ill-informed and knowledgeable posts makes for an interesting discussion. It all goes to show that education is the key, but what's more interesting is the surprising amount of support for winter tyres.

I honestly didn't think as many as 27% of users would support the use of winter tyres!

Before living abroad, I certainly would have scoffed at the idea but having used them, I see the immediate benefits and I would happily keep two set of wheels for my car.

[beanbag]

rev-erend said:

Another no vote here .. as most years here in the south it's just so rare to get any snow.. but 2009 (Feb & Dec) and 2010 (Jan) seem to be an exception.

Perhaps a few road safety films on TV might be appropriate.

Personally - I've love to bolt on a set of rallye specials to my car .. something like a Colway (although I did hear they went bust a few years ago)..

With all due respect; Again more ill-informed statements.

Winter tyres are NOT snow specific. They are designed to offer more grip in lower temperatures and to disperse water better. Better traction in snow and ice is just one benefit of many.

[beanbag]

Cheesybit said:

J B L said:

beanbag said:

J B L said:

Voted "no". No need to create further expenses to the masses for the few idiots who can't control their right foot when conditions change.

By the way, as many of us know, your list is quite off:
- France: not compulsory unless the "Prefet" (MP) says its necessary for a short period of time, snowable areas require you carry chains at all time.
- Switzerland: not compulsory but police will hold you responsible if winter tyres could have prevented the accident (goes back to car control). Your insurance could also take you to court to get their money back.
- Your beloved Austria-that-is-so-much-better-than-the-UK: It's mandatory to have winter tyres with at least 4mm thread depth on certain roads and mountain passes
- Italy: see France.
- Finland & Sweden: Mandatory from 01/12 to 31/03
- Norway: Mandatory at police's discretion (so you'd better have them on really)
- Can't comment on Latvia but I know that Estonia's got a mandatory policy on winter tyres. (01/12 to 01/03 I think)

Your list of countries are all very "snowable" with proper winters that will last 3 months or more, therefore it is common sense to use winter tyres, the expense is justified. When I lived in Lyon I used to have a set of winter tyres on steel rims that I would put on at first snow or frost and take off when weather got milder. A set of tyre would last me 3 or 4 winters too. If the same was applied in the UK, your set of tyre would last 10 years at least!

My 2p.

With regards to my "so-called" beloved Austria.....

You are utterly wrong. I've no idea where you read this but it's wrong. You need winter tyres from the 1st November until the end of March. Learn your facts. Without it, your insurance will be void.

Yes, yes, yes. I have just checked and you are right: they are mandatory since January 08. Unless you have chains and the snow covers the whole road without interuption (ie: no damage to road surface made by chains)

I bow to your superior knowledge of all things Austrian - since you live there it'd be a shame - however you are utterly wrong for pretty much every other countries.

No. They are only needed in Austria if you drive on snow, slush or ice.
You can drive around in your Ferrari on summer tyres in winter in Austria as long as you don’t drive on snow, slush or ice. I wouldn’t advise it, and your insurance may be invalid if you have an accident that was caused by inappropriate tyres, but it is not the law unless you drive in wintery conditions.

Off you trot them and try it then. I've seen how the police handle motorists who break the law and frankly, there's no PC bullst here. It's something I'd rather avoid, but you go right ahead!

Edited by beanbag on Friday 8th January 11:36

[beanbag]

RChase said:

I voted no.
What’s wrong with leaving people to use their common sense? I don’t feel I need winter tyres although I know it would be safer to drive about with them and if I had the spare cash I’d probably get a set. I drive a relatively heavy underpowered car and in the snow I find it easy enough to get around, if I start under steering, a light tug on the handbrake tends to sort me out and I’m going slowly enough that even I can keep my car balanced. Someone with an unfavourable layout, rear wheel drive with wide tyres and no weight over the back might need winter tyres to just get about in which case that’s their choice. It’s not an insignificant cost for a lot of people and I don’t think more government legislation is necessary for a few weeks of the year in this country when braking performance might be improved.
Is there not more danger from having tyres sat around for years, the rubber degrading because they’re 10 years old and only get used for a couple of weeks every year? I’m not proud of this but I once used a spare tyre that had been in the boot for god knows how long. I didn’t think much about it at the time but the next day it completely disintegrated on a duel carriageway.
There are safety gains to be had by using winter tyres but also by “upgrading” from that interesting old car with cable operated drum brakes to a Nissan Micra.
I don’t have a big brother, only a younger one. I certainly don’t need one with a silly name like beanbag.

Yes, quite......I suppose we're all rally drivers like yourself then? I can't quite see my mother lightly "yanking" the hand brake to correct the balance of her car.

Like I said, the most ignorant are the ill-informed and there's certainly no need for name calling in this thread.

Edited by beanbag on Friday 8th January 13:09

[beanbag]

RacingTeatray said:

sleep envy said:

OnTheRoof96 said:

*So* much misinformation on this thread!

cracking first post

Agreed.

Very good! Top information from a very well informed person.