Friday 27th September 2013

Ringside Seat: LaFerrari vs. Porsche 918

The Ferrari has to lap the 'ring faster, right? Dale's not so sure...

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LaFerrari is here. It's been an endless procession of exotica lapping the Nurburgring in recent weeks. It started with the McLaren P1, which prompted a furore of sub seven speculation. This was closely followed by the Porsche 918 Spyder which ended all that speculation with a genuine 6m57s lap time.

LaFerrari has arrived at the 'ring this week...

And before McLaren could even regroup its forces, the third and final hybrid hypercar of 2013 just arrived at the Nurburgring Nordschleife. Yep, Ferrari is here.

With the hype surrounding lap times, and following in the wake of Marc Lieb's magical lap (below), there's no way Ferrari's visit is an innocent one. I just can't believe that.

But I also don't believe it will beat Porsche's time.

I'm not particularly a Porsche, McLaren or Ferrari fan. If you want an emotionally charged reaction from me, you'd be better off asking about first generation MX-5s versus second.

So let's keep this analytical. Why do I honestly believe the two other cars won't beat the Germans?

... but Dale's unsure it will beat 6m 57s

Is it the power? The LF's total output (V12 and two battery-drill motors) tops 963hp. The P1 claims 916hp. By comparison the Porsche 'only' has 887hp at peak, and relies more heavily on 279hp of electric output for that impressive total figure (watch the lap and compare the top speed up Kesselchen with full batteries to the top speed up the Dottinger Hohe with empty batteries). When you factor in the crazy active aero of the P1 and LF, and their lighter kerbweights (the Porsche is around 400kg heavier than the LF), it's hard to believe the Porsche can even compete.

But this is where it gets tricky for the Italians and Brits. Porsche practically lives at the Nurburgring. It tests all year. It doesn't don't rent a workshop for a week or two. It has one of the best (and most secretive) facilities here. Its engineers, technicians and drivers know the Nordschleife inside and out.

Setting a lap time on the 13-mile Nordschleife cannot be compared to something as simple as, for example, the Top Gear test track. The scale is incomparable. You can't just drive around for a day and be sure that you will get the perfect lap. The variables are immense.

Is Lamborghini planning a riposte too?

From a driving point of view, the perfect lap is always tough. On a one-minute lap, it might only take a few sessions. On a two-minute lap it's more than twice as difficult. Up the scale to three minutes at somewhere like Spa-Francorchamps and you might be there all weekend before you get it nailed. Treble it again to the Nordschleife's scale and the perfect lap might never be achieved.

It's for that reason that I don't believe that McLaren's P1 went under seven minutes, for all of its previous boasting or technological marvels. The engineers, the drivers, they have made a wonderful car. The same is true at Ferrari.

But they're just not invested into the Nurburgring like Porsche are. They don't have Nordschleife experts like Marc Lieb and 'old guy' Walter on the hotline. McLaren and Ferrari are coming into a dark room full of obstacles, and only Porsche know where the light switch is.

Of course, if either the P1 or LaFerrari can beat the 918's time without resorting to slicks, I think it will reflect even more favourably on any car managing to beat Porsche's experience and local knowledge. But that's a big if!

Video of Marc Lieb's stunning 918 lap:

[Dr S]

Indeed. Experience is a factor that cannot be overestimated at the Ring. That's why some of the incumbent VLN teams are so difficult to beat

Still I would want to see onboards from LaFerrari and P1 hot laps

[storminnorman]

Ferrari won't say a word unless they beat it. I don't think they will, but it won't make any difference as people will still buy their cars by the bucketload

[toppstuff]

Very interesting.

I think the manufacturers will use all sorts of trickery, fakery and underhand activities to get the time around the ring they are after.

As a result, I think some of these cars will carry tweaks and tricks that will never make it into production cars.

Prime suspect here has to be Ferrari - they have form in this respect. I think Ferrari will make a magical announcement about how the LaF has gone sub-7 only to then get very secretive and change the subject when challenged or questioned about the spec of the car compared to the cars people will actually buy.

[Crunchy Nutter]

Very fair comment. Porsche does have a significant home advantage. It'd be interesting to put the LF and 918 on Ferrari's test track and see who does the better time there!

[delays]

Porsche seems to be the dark horse of the trio here.

Lots of chat about it being the "slowest" - goes out and does a sub-7 Ring Time.

Wonder what effect that had on sales?

As for Ferrari, it doesn't really matter, they've sold them all and they don't seem to care too much about the Ring anyway.

[Kawasicki]

This article is funny, why would McLaren or Ferrari not have 'Ring experts? They're hardly rare.

[garypotter]

Does having a car being able to lap the ring in so many seconds add any value to the make, model or branding of a vehicle? I personally am rather bored of all this talk about ring lap times. So irrelevent with por, lafezza and mcl as would we see these cars used in a race series? I doubt it.

Much better to see a driver ina MK1 MX5 wringing the neck out of it on the limit and occasionally pass its limit, wink wink

[birdcage]

Insane wing mirrors on the Ferrari.

[benters]

i love a car with a single wiper, they just look cool.

[anonymous-user]

garypotter said:

Does having a car being able to lap the ring in so many seconds add any value to the make, model or branding of a vehicle? I personally am rather bored of all this talk about ring lap times. So irrelevent with por, lafezza and mcl as would we see these cars used in a race series? I doubt it.

I agree with you to a point but the ring is one of the few places where a ‘real world’ road test can be done. I’m sure the magazines will get hold of all three at some point and do a comparative test otherwise it just becomes a top trumps spec comparison.

[smilo996]

However all Porsche's experience at the Ring, became embarrassing when Nissan have repeatedly wiped the asphalt with them and any kind of 911 with a car with lower HP figures and higher weight. Nissan even offered to send them the tires and a driver, because Porsche could not comprehend how the GT-R had beaten the Beetle Sport.

Few believe in Porsche's supremacy. If they did Porsche would have sold all their 918's, which they have not. Not a problem for Ferrari and Mclaren though.

Porsche have come too early in my opinion. Mclaren and Ferrari can now take their time to trounce the Porsche time. Rather than doing a lap and posting a time without knowing if it is fast, both McLaren have only one to beat, Porsche. Whoever sets the first time must beat the other two. But if McLaren beats the Porsche but not the Ferrari, little will be made of that. What will be important is that it has beaten Porsche.

[The Jolly Todger]

This article sums up perfectly why comparing Nürburgring lap-times is almost completely pointless.

[motor mad]

McLaren will go quicker than the Porsche and Ferrari. It's simply a case of by how much.

[storminnorman]

delays said:

Porsche seems to be the dark horse of the trio here.

Lots of chat about it being the "slowest" - goes out and does a sub-7 Ring Time.

Wonder what effect that had on sales?

From the FB page of the P4/5c (created by a well known enthusiast/collector)

said:

According Frank Walliser Porsche had 600 + deposits on 918's, even before they announced the ring times September 10th. He actually said 'We have deposits on 2/3rds of the vehicles so far', on September 9th. Subsequently, Porsche has said that sales have been boosted even more, since the Ring Time announcement at Frankfurt (September 10th). So now they expect to sell out, 'well before the year is over', according to them.

This information came from Walliser at Frankfurt.

I think plenty of people knew the 918 would be good long before the 'ring time. You only have to look at the CGT to see how well Porsche can make a modern supercar.

smilo996 said:

Few believe in Porsche's supremacy. If they did Porsche would have sold all their 918's, which they have not. Not a problem for Ferrari and Mclaren though.

Porsche have more to sell (918 units?) compared to Ferrari's 499, McLaren's 375. If my above quote is to be believed (I see no reason why said well-known person would lie) then Porsche have sold more than the other two.
I agree, though, that they blinked first when perhaps they shouldn't have (re: ring times)

[Adenauer]

Kawasicki said:

This article is funny, why would McLaren or Ferrari not have 'Ring experts? They're hardly rare.

I agree, seems a bit odd.

[ArtVandelay]

Don't Radical still hold the record anyway?

[anonymous-user]

Two things matter at the ring (or any other race track for that matter) when talking about ultimate lap times:

1) Power to weight ratio
2) Downforce to weight ratio


You can put all the local knowledge in the car you want, but a faster car is a faster car. No matter how good your driver is,he can't go more than 100% throttle!

[ajprice]

garypotter said:

Does having a car being able to lap the ring in so many seconds add any value to the make, model or branding of a vehicle? I personally am rather bored of all this talk about ring lap times. So irrelevent with por, lafezza and mcl as would we see these cars used in a race series? I doubt it.

They need a benchmark to show off about. Stuff like 200mph, 0-60 in 2. or 3. something, 0-100 in under 10, 0-100-0 etc are done and done. Ring times are the latest benchmark, 7 minutes is a nice round number to beat.

As well as Porsche's possible upper hand at the Ring, and Ferrari at their own test track, McLaren test their stuff at the Top Gear track. The only way you're going to get fair lap times is with a neutral track and driver, so there's no bias to car or driver to get one around faster than the others.

[epom]

I think the ring tests are great, better than 0-150 times, better than top speed tests. Its not a 2 minute lap of a small smooth racetrack either. Its a great leveller and over that distance it shows the men from the boys. It also shows how quick these supercars are in comparison to a hot hatch or something similar. I for one think its great. Long live the ring.

[Kawasicki]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

yep