RE: 2015 Honda Civic Type R: the engineers talk

RE: 2015 Honda Civic Type R: the engineers talk

Tuesday 11th December 2012

2015 Honda Civic Type R: the engineers talk

Shadow of the 'ring looms large over next Type R but there's no need to worry



We already know Honda is aiming for a new front-wheel drive 'ring record with the next Civic Type R. But is that bad news for those of us without a year ticket to the Nordschleife?

It'll be very different from the last one
It'll be very different from the last one
The launch of the new Civic 1.6 i-DTEC turbodiesel doesn't seem like the obvious place to find out - though the long-awaited smaller capacity diesel impresses with a 94g/km and 120hp combo. But when the R&D Large Project Leader for this car expresses surprise nobody's asked about the forthcoming hot hatch yet, even we know when to take a hint.

We'd already triggered the appearance of a Honda-wielded Dictaphone by asking about turbo petrol engines in general - "we must win against all our competitors" the gist of the response from engineers feeling the pressure of being late to the party. But the sudden shift in tempo at the mention of the Type R is palpable. VTEC just kicked in, etc.

Except, we already know it won't be a VTEC - at least not in the traditional sense. Instead it will be a new 1.6-litre turbo petrol of as yet unspecified performance, which also forms the heart of the firm's World Touring Car Championship challenger (albeit with Mugen's help). On this basis, and given the stated target of eclipsing the Renault Megane 265 Trophy's 8min 8secNurburgring lap, we'll make a stab at around 300hp.

New turbocharged VTEC just kicked in?*
New turbocharged VTEC just kicked in?*
Or can we? Our R&D man, Suehiro Hasshi and his translator Kotaro Yamamoto - himself not only an engineer but also a long-time driver for Honda's European R&D racing team - are quick to point out that power isn't everything. Where the Nurburging's concerned, they tell us, it's actually torque that's key. An interesting statement, given Honda's high-revving heritage.

Similarly, any observation that the Civic's space-efficient twist beam rear suspension is out of touch with the latest multi-link competition is swiftly brushed aside. For the Nurburging, brakes and tyres follow power and torque in priority for Honda. And anyway, what the back of the car is doing is probably of lesser consequence assuming the front is equipped with a proper mechanical limited-slip diff - which judging by the glint in their eyes it will be.

Renault's 'ring record is in Honda's sights
Renault's 'ring record is in Honda's sights
All this talk about the 'ring is beginning to make the B-road in our soul a little nervous, though. But Hasshi and Yamamoto are quick to acknowledge the UK is the biggest market for Type R in Europe; it will be built here, at Swindon, and as a consequence it will also be tested here. This is a relief.

For while the 'ring - and the Mégane - are important benchmarks for demonstrating the Type R's speed, Honda's approach remains reassuringly multifaceted. When we ask about other benchmarks, we're told, "in terms of daily practicality it would be the Volkswagen Scirocco R." That sounds like excellent news to us; you'll also note the VW, like the Renault, channels 'just' 265hp through its front wheels.

Plenty of questions remain, including about the transmission - the inevitable dual-clutch is being evaluated - but it's too early to get any more specifics. Still. "I think it will not disappoint you," says Hasshi-San. "You can be sure it will exceed your expectations - both in terms of specification and performance." Roll on 2015, then.

*Slightly disturbing picture from a series of photos in which "Honda showcases racing spirit and passion for engineering..." and too good to resist! - Ed.

 

 

Author
Discussion

scarecrow

Original Poster:

2,950 posts

234 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
Looking forward to this.
The danger for Honda is that 2+ years is a long time in car development and the competition may have just moved on by then.

Oddball RS

1,757 posts

217 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
We already know Honda is aiming for a new front-wheel drive 'ring record with the next Civic Type R. But is that bad news for those of us without a year ticket to the Nordschleife?


Thats got to be the worst reason to build a hot hatch yet, Sorry but it does not result in a decent UK road car.

Krikkit

26,500 posts

180 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
Oddball RS said:
Thats got to be the worst reason to build a hot hatch yet, Sorry but it does not result in a decent UK road car.
But are they mutually exclusive? I wouldn't count on them making a lemon, Nurburgring record or not, they've got to sell by the bucketload.

kambites

67,462 posts

220 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
Krikkit said:
Oddball RS said:
Thats got to be the worst reason to build a hot hatch yet, Sorry but it does not result in a decent UK road car.
But are they mutually exclusive? I wouldn't count on them making a lemon, Nurburgring record or not, they've got to sell by the bucketload.
There are to a degree - fast circuit times tend to demand very stiff suspension setups which ruin a road car, IMO. this statement has me particularly worried:

Article said:
Similarly, any observation that the Civic's space-efficient twist beam rear suspension is out of touch with the latest multi-link competition is swiftly brushed aside. For the Nurburging, brakes and tyres follow power and torque in priority for Honda.

LuS1fer

41,086 posts

244 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
They should make a Type R UK and a special edition "Nurburgring" with which to chase the record - two versions of the same car in effect so you can choose which you want....assuming they are mutually exclusive ingredients.

Chrisw666

22,655 posts

198 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
So the next Type R will have fanboys creaming at numbers but will be irrelevant for road use.

Captain Muppet

8,540 posts

264 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
From a thread yesterday:

Captain Muppet said:
None of my local B-roads are anything like as rough as the Karussell.

Twincam16

27,646 posts

257 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
LuS1fer said:
They should make a Type R UK and a special edition "Nurburgring" with which to chase the record - two versions of the same car in effect so you can choose which you want....assuming they are mutually exclusive ingredients.
I agree - or maybe follow MG's example and do a 'BTCC Edition' with suspension settings designed to get the fastest lap around, say, Silverstone.

MarJay

2,173 posts

174 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
This does mean that Honda are going back to making quick cars instead of focusing on dead end Hybrids. That has to be good news surely? In the same way that Toyota has gone from making white goods to the GT86 and supposedly an MR2 and Supra replacement too, honda must follow suit.

Plus the only difference between a sweet road car in the UK and a Nurburgring special has to be the spring rates and damping levels. The geometry etc will still be good, so Honda just need to put softer springs and dampers on their car, and it'll be awesome on the road, or am I somehow being terrificaly naive?

Guvernator

13,106 posts

164 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
Captain Muppet said:
From a thread yesterday:

Captain Muppet said:
None of my local B-roads are anything like as rough as the Karussell.
You mentioned this in a post yesterday and I was just as puzzled by it then. Not meaning to sound obtuse but what does one admittedly pretty rough corner at the ring have to do with building a decent road car\hot hatch?

Krikkit

26,500 posts

180 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
kambites said:
Krikkit said:
Oddball RS said:
Thats got to be the worst reason to build a hot hatch yet, Sorry but it does not result in a decent UK road car.
But are they mutually exclusive? I wouldn't count on them making a lemon, Nurburgring record or not, they've got to sell by the bucketload.
There are to a degree - fast circuit times tend to demand very stiff suspension setups which ruin a road car, IMO. this statement has me particularly worried:

Article said:
Similarly, any observation that the Civic's space-efficient twist beam rear suspension is out of touch with the latest multi-link competition is swiftly brushed aside. For the Nurburging, brakes and tyres follow power and torque in priority for Honda.
They do, generally, but I would venture that the 'ring isn't quite a normal circuit - you could have a decent road setup go very well around there as long as the mechanical grip and brakes are still there. c. 300hp, mech LSD, big brakes and some decent wheels will see a good turn of speed without needing to go super-solid on the suspension.

What was the Megane R26.R like on the road?

SmartVenom

462 posts

168 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
2015 is a long way off and I'd have thought renaultsport will have had a fair few special editions in this time all capable of chipping a bit more out of their record. If I was Honda I'd want to get the car built ASAP otherwise they may well have a car that is only quicker than the old record and who wants a car that is only second quickest around the ring... This is how all cars sell isn't it?

PowerfullyBuilt

131 posts

177 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
A Type-R without VTECH is like sex without orgasm.

RichTBiscuit

430 posts

150 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
HONDA - Please fit a manual gearbox (at least as an option!)

Flappy paddles are great for the track, but a manual is much more fun on the road.

Mr2Mike

20,143 posts

254 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
Oddball RS said:
We already know Honda is aiming for a new front-wheel drive 'ring record with the next Civic Type R. But is that bad news for those of us without a year ticket to the Nordschleife?


Thats got to be the worst reason to build a hot hatch yet, Sorry but it does not result in a decent UK road car.
Doesn't the article specifically address this point?

kambites

67,462 posts

220 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
PowerfullyBuilt said:
A Type-R without VTECH is like sex without orgasm.
Well since no Type-R has ever had something called "VTECH", that's a bit of a shame. hehe

kambites

67,462 posts

220 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
Krikkit said:
They do, generally, but I would venture that the 'ring isn't quite a normal circuit - you could have a decent road setup go very well around there as long as the mechanical grip and brakes are still there. c. 300hp, mech LSD, big brakes and some decent wheels will see a good turn of speed without needing to go super-solid on the suspension.

What was the Megane R26.R like on the road?
The R26.R doesn't use a rear suspension system known to be inferior to its competition "because it doesn't matter on the 'ring", which basically seems to be what Honda are saying.

needabike

81 posts

139 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
Just don't call it a Type R as they are N/A.
It's time to bring back the VTi.






After_Shock

8,751 posts

219 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
Oddball RS said:
Thats got to be the worst reason to build a hot hatch yet, Sorry but it does not result in a decent UK road car.
Hasnt done the meganne any harm tho has it?

Triple7

4,013 posts

236 months

Tuesday 11th December 2012
quotequote all
Liked my FN2, fabulous looks, great interior, but the rock hard suspension was ridiculous. Don't make the same mistake Honda, bring us a cutting edge product, useable on UK roads. Spend more money on the interior and give it some decent power to boot.

I have to say the latest offering of the Civic is somewhat bland and cheap looking. Honda have a long road ahead to get back to where they were.

New S2000/Prelude please and hurry up with the NSX.....