RE: PH Blog: is Shed motoring doomed?
Wednesday 9th January 2013
Yes, this blog contains a picture of my Mazda. Yes, it will contain a degree of 'answer to everything' propaganda, though not exclusively MX-5 related. Disclaimer out of the way, let me begin.
Even a bust horn required professional helpOur journey starts with the press release for the new E-Class I was going through in preparation for a news story last week. And though it's perhaps unfair to single out Mercedes for this - they're all at it - that ridiculous line about some sort of 3D stereoscopic camera using complex algorithms to evaluate road signs, traffic, pedestrians and all the other stuff you might expect the driver to be looking out for made me think this tech-fest thing has finally jumped the shark. Another premium maker I was seeing recently was talking about forthcoming next-gen headlights that seek out and identify wildlife in the undergrowth. I kid you not.
This, with some Renaultsport cast-offs?What hope the Shedman 10 or 20 years hence, then, trying to bodge his stereoscopic pedestrian detection system to scrape his E-Class bargain barge through some heightened MoT test? Will such a thing as Sheds still exist or will or will junkyards fill with mechanically sound cars knobbled by some failed relay or sensor? The Mazda has taught me a few basic spannering lessons over the years and it's felt suitably empowering. That an electric component as simple as a horn meant taking it to a man doesn't bode well for aging tech-laden cars.
Now if Dacia could do something like this...So let the high tech new Renaultsport Clio play the mainstream and let's have a three-door Sandero, or something like it that brings Dacia back-to-basics affordability to the hot hatch genre. Dig out some old Renaultsport chassis bits from the 172/182. Pare it back like my old 172 Cup, whose lack of weight and general gubbins meant it'd do 40mpg on a cruise and scare the living bejeezus out of you were you to lift-off mid bend. Keep it so simple future generations of cash-strapped PHers can run it with little more than a socket set, have-a-go enthusiasm and skinned knuckles. Hell, even go for the steel wheels and grey plastic bumpers schtick of the tuner-ready GT86 they sell in Japan.
PH Blog: is Shed motoring doomed?
The fight is on to create a generation of cars we can enjoy as future Sheds
Even a bust horn required professional help
Mocking this, of course, dooms me to an unpleasant vehicle/unseen livestock interface in the near future but these are the kind of sacrifices we have to make.
Anyway, I was pondering this as I tried, and failed, to fix the horn on the Mazda ahead of its MoT. Now, I'm no god with a spanner. But I'd have hoped being able to fix such a simple electronic component was within even my meagre mechanical repertoire. Nope.
This, with some Renaultsport cast-offs?
Unless it's a Dacia of course. Chris's drive in the Duster and the perhaps unexpected PH enthusiasm for the Ronseal approach to motoring of this and its Sandero brother offer a glimmer of hope. We need to convince Dacia to make a hot hatch. A very Dacia type of hot hatch. Having successfully reinvented the basic French cars of parent Renault's past there could be something in this.
Now if Dacia could do something like this...
As luck would have it I'm attending an industry dinner later. At my table some top brass from Dacia. Wish me luck...
Dan
Discussion
Complexity not withstanding its the parts and availability that kills modern cars IMO.
When the electric windows on my car packed up it wasn't hard to strip off the complex doorcard, speakers, switches and lift mechanism but the tiny controller wasn't available anywhere, no breaker had bothered retaining such a tiny component and the manufacturer would only supply it as part of the £300 lifter mechanism. At one point I had to drive to a main dealer to get the window closed because there was no other way to close it!
Its highly likely IMO that the shed's of today are the sheds of tomorrow, if they are simple enough to maintain they always will be.
When the electric windows on my car packed up it wasn't hard to strip off the complex doorcard, speakers, switches and lift mechanism but the tiny controller wasn't available anywhere, no breaker had bothered retaining such a tiny component and the manufacturer would only supply it as part of the £300 lifter mechanism. At one point I had to drive to a main dealer to get the window closed because there was no other way to close it!
Its highly likely IMO that the shed's of today are the sheds of tomorrow, if they are simple enough to maintain they always will be.
Regrettably, Renault are one of the worst offenders when it comes to dodgy electrics, particularly with the Clio 2, which I think the Sandero is based on? (or at least shares an engine with?). Maybe they've cured all this now, but even a poverty spec Dacia has to have electrics for lights, engine management, heating, and so forth...
Far too pessimistic man!
People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
I think this extends much much further than cars. We've been living in a disposable era for some years now and product manufacturers know that getting us out of the old and into the new means more profits. I mean, let's face it, no-one REALLY needs to upgrade their mobile phone every year do they!? So of course in 25 years time when pretty much all the cars on the roads today will have died out no, we won't be able to take a spanner to the latest model. And for the most part, why would we want to? Outside of the hallowed pages of this site, people don't want to get their hands dirty, they just want reliability and convenience; the word "appliance" comes to mind. Who for example on here would want to fix their washing machine or fridge/freezer themselves rather than calling out a plumber for example? Not too many I'd wager...
Does this mean shed motoring is doomed? Yes, for the most part I'd say it is. Just as today running a car built in the 1920s would require a true "specialist" as opposed to a normal mechanic so it will be in the future. In other words, whilst it may be entirely possible to own a vintage car, one will need to really want to do that in addition to having the required funds to do so.
Does this mean shed motoring is doomed? Yes, for the most part I'd say it is. Just as today running a car built in the 1920s would require a true "specialist" as opposed to a normal mechanic so it will be in the future. In other words, whilst it may be entirely possible to own a vintage car, one will need to really want to do that in addition to having the required funds to do so.
RichTBiscuit said:
Far too pessimistic man!
People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
Absolutely. The electronic parts are just parts - supply and demand will operate as it always does for cars this side of Big Mercs and BM's. I do think, though, that really high end cars, with really rare and complex electronic units, like the Veyron or MPC/458's will be very hard to maintain. Hence the relative lack of value of 959's. Heaven only knows how anyone will keep a GTR on the road.People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
RichTBiscuit said:
Far too pessimistic man!
People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
Your thoughts echo mine. I'm glad I read through the replies to the article as it saves me having to write my whole comment! People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
I'm sure when fuel injection arrived, people at the time thought the same. How will we fix it when it goes wrong?! It will be sooo expensive!!! etc. But actually, we just learn the new tech and how to fix it.
RichTBiscuit said:
Far too pessimistic man!
People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
No way. Those sorts of spares won't exactly be the matter of a cheeky fiver at a scrapyard. You'll be talking big bucks relative to basic mechanical spare parts now.People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
300bhp/ton said:
[quote=Greg 172} even a poverty spec Dacia has to have electrics for heating, and so forth...
electric heating, that's a new one 
Seriously though, I was thinking more of the fan and , where applicable, wired switches for other controls. Not sure whether the Dacia's have electrics for heatign control or if you just open up a little door in the bulkhead to allow the engine heat in to the cabin...?
W124 said:
RichTBiscuit said:
Far too pessimistic man!
People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
Absolutely. The electronic parts are just parts - supply and demand will operate as it always does for cars this side of Big Mercs and BM's. I do think, though, that really high end cars, with really rare and complex electronic units, like the Veyron or MPC/458's will be very hard to maintain. Hence the relative lack of value of 959's. Heaven only knows how anyone will keep a GTR on the road.People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
I agree with the theme in the article that many of the new gadgets being introduced by manufacturers are pointless. I dont need all of that s
t. Also agree re: the 172 Cup comments and it would be good if Dacia / Renault listened to this school of thought.
The bigger issue I see isn't fixing them when something breaks, it's if the EU / Nanny state or whoever decides that things like Airbags need to become service items that are checked by MOTs etc.
My 12 year old M5 has a LOT of airbags in it, if they all needed replacing I dare say it'd not be economical to do it.
My 12 year old M5 has a LOT of airbags in it, if they all needed replacing I dare say it'd not be economical to do it.
Crunchy Nutter said:
It's a fair point, this. I've thought about it too. Now's the time to be setting up an independent garage specialising in used car electrical faults...
I already do some of that - but will the average shedder want to pay £60/hr at todays prices?Complex cars mean high repair prices, therefore ending up as scrap earlier.
Just done the wiper mechanism on my Esprit - took about 10 hours. So if it was a Punters' car that would be £600 labour + £350 for mechanism + vat. On an older less desriable car that is as complex - off to the weigh in I would guess.......
I'm sure when car first had ECU's added people gasped at the complexity. How will we cope, yadda yadda.
We just adapt and prices drop. Business pops up to take care of markets that appear.
Part of me thinks future cars might return to a keep it simple philosophy. As this global economic stoppage bites then people will tend to want to buy a car that will last a decade, not just 3-4yrs till the next one comes out.
If anything, the days of always buying the latest TV/phone/car kinda thing are what is doomed!
Dave
We just adapt and prices drop. Business pops up to take care of markets that appear.
Part of me thinks future cars might return to a keep it simple philosophy. As this global economic stoppage bites then people will tend to want to buy a car that will last a decade, not just 3-4yrs till the next one comes out.
If anything, the days of always buying the latest TV/phone/car kinda thing are what is doomed!
Dave
Bigger issue for future sheds is regulations.....
When your car wont pass its future MOT because it needs 8 x new airbags because the current batch fitted have all expired their use by date, whose going to spend 8 x thousand £££££'s stripping out and replacing airbags?
Cars will be written off by their MOT requirements in my opinion.
When your car wont pass its future MOT because it needs 8 x new airbags because the current batch fitted have all expired their use by date, whose going to spend 8 x thousand £££££'s stripping out and replacing airbags?
Cars will be written off by their MOT requirements in my opinion.
RichTBiscuit said:
Far too pessimistic man!
People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
The E38 is mechanically traditional and fairly DIY friendly. The E65 which came afterwards will be a whole different ball game (I expect). Some jobs require specialist tools and knowledge to fit even if you can pick up cheap secondhand parts- with specialist charging £75/hour it just won't be feasible to spend 8hr's repairing air suspension ECU's and stuff. People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
Cars like it are already out there- try bodging up a Soarer with active suspension on the cheap. It won't happen.
The average driver probably doesn't appreciate the level of complexity and incredible amount of effort that goes into producing a modern car. I've always felt very uneasy how in the UK, on the whole, we see even a five to six year old car as being 'old' when the fact is there is still a lot of life left in such a vehicle.
We do really need to change direction with cars and start building things that can be serviced and maintained much longer in the future, but like our reliance on oil based fuels, it's all about creating a social shift which will be far from easy.
We do really need to change direction with cars and start building things that can be serviced and maintained much longer in the future, but like our reliance on oil based fuels, it's all about creating a social shift which will be far from easy.
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