RE: Giving us the slip

Wednesday 13th February 2013

Giving us the slip

Why carmakers are banishing the electronic nannies to the back seat



Amazing to think it, but performance car brands are finding the courage and the tech to let us explore the limits of grip. You'd think the western world's daily worship at the altar of health and safety would have denied the average driver any exploration of the limits in new performance cars. Incredibly, that's not the case.

Ford says there is the freedom to include slip
Ford says there is the freedom to include slip
Increasingly clever electronics and a refreshing change of attitude to what performance means has led more makers to allow us to safely experience grip loss if we go looking for it.

Case in point, Ford. "We try and get the fun-to-drive factor, which means the driver can destabilise the car if he wants," Len Urwin, powertrain engineering manager at Ford's Team RS, told us. "10 years ago, you couldn't do lift-off oversteer in a Ford because it was construed as being not want the customer wanted. It was seen as unsafe, but these days for performance cars, to a degree it's encouraged."

It was a statement that gladdened our hearts and got us looking for more examples of this liberated attitude. The glaring one is the Toyota GT86.

So, are carmakers going to let us do this?
So, are carmakers going to let us do this?
Toyota has made little secret of the tail-out simplicity of its back to basics sports car, even designing the badge to resemble four drifting wheels within the number 86, or so it says. Fitting a sweet-handling rear-drive car with torque sensing limited-slip diff and three modes of stability control is just about the perfect recipe on paper to safely explore grip.

"Discreet safety net"
Elsewhere Porsche is subtlety promoting tail out action in its new Cayman, pointing out that the PDK twin-clutch gearbox "permits a dynamic driving style" by figuring out the driver is drifting and holding onto gears when the stablilty control is switched off, "assuming a suitably protected roadway".

Latest tech exploited to the max on Cayman
Latest tech exploited to the max on Cayman
Jaguar is another. With similar coyness to Porsche, it says that the Trac DSC setting of its stability control in the new XFR-S "offers the enthusiastic driver more opportunity to explore the outer edges of the handling envelope" while providing "a discreet safety net."

Of course, in the old days, loss of grip threatened whether you went looking for it or not. But for the enthusiast driving right on the edge of grip on road or track was infinitely rewarding, not least because it was usually telegraphed so clearly.

"If the grip started to go you could really feel it," celebrated Jaguar test driver Norman Dewis told us recently. "If you look at these cars today, the grip they've got ... These really wide tyres really glue them to the road."

Jaguar is a big fan of feel and feedback
Jaguar is a big fan of feel and feedback
The breakdown in communications from road to driver continues with all the technology feeding more pressing demands, such as comfort, safety and emissions. But hearteningly technology can also be the enthusiast driver's friend. Case in point, the brilliant stability control Lotus has applied to its new Exige S.

The Lotus race setting
The beautifully balanced V6 two-seater has a version of Lotus's Dynamic Performance Management co-created with Bosch that now offers four different levels of assistance, with the addition of a Race setting just above 'off'. Lotus calls it an 'enhancement' to its traditionalhandling purity.

"We want the car to be able to communicate to the driver, give them enough feedback so they can feel the limit of that grip, and when they reach it, that's when our stability system comes in," principal vehicle dynamics engineer Alan Clark tells PistonHeads.

Lotus's nifty new stability control on the Exige S
Lotus's nifty new stability control on the Exige S
Stability control prevents slides, unwanted or not, by braking individual wheels and reducing engine torque, and is often regarded with disdain by keener drivers for its obvious intrusion. But smarter systems like the Lotus DPM can delicately adjust the help it needs, with Race presenting what Lotus reckons is the perfect level of assistance for the fastest track lap. And, like Jaguar's "discreet safety net" it'll tidy up the larier slides.

"It comes to the point of a certain yaw angle and we say, okay, we need to act here and help the driver out," says Clark.

You'd think the EU would step in this point and wave the red flag, and to an extent it does. From this year all new cars sold in Europe have to be fitted with stability control, but the rules also allow the system to be switched off, providing a light indicates that fact and that when you start the car next time, it reverts to the stability 'on' setting. It's a measure of how discreet Lotus's Race setting is that the EU requires it to trigger the 'off' dash light...

BMW's GKN-supplied diff enables lots of this
BMW's GKN-supplied diff enables lots of this
BMW's "constant drift"
It's not the Lotus way, but a limited-slip diff is often touted as the perfect ingredient to for fast, tail-dancing driving, especially a torque-sensing LSD such as that in the GT86.

"You can steer the car by sliding on the throttle, which many people like," says Heinrich Huchtkoetter, senior engineer for drivetrain engineering firm GKN.
The British firm makes the Visco LokLSDs fitted to the last generation BMW M cars, and Huchkoetter reveals that the M division has long wanted its cars to be driftable. He says, "When BMW first approached us, they asked: 'can do you a limited-slip differential which enables a driver who can do it to keep the vehicle in a constant drift?'"

Drivers found it tricky to balance though, and our engineering insider explains that's because the speed sensing Visco Lok will only lock up when it detects a spinning wheel. "There is a delay, so you had to give more throttle to speed up."

Mid-way 'hero' modes are now commonplace
Mid-way 'hero' modes are now commonplace
High tech hooning
But again we've got technology to help us out. The M5, M6 and forthcoming M3 come with the so-called Active Mdifferential, also made by GKN. The independent control of each driveshaft this gives has a wealth of advantages, including drifting. "You can close the LSD even before the inner wheel is spinning, then you get it more or less controlled by the throttle into a drift immediately," Huchkoetter tells us.

This tech is spreading too. Jaguar's active electronic differential on the XFR-S and the top-spec F-Type is the same system, made by GKN. It can apply "full locking torque almost instantaneously" says Jaguar - ideal for a tail wag.

Even Lotus, not a fan of passive LSDs, is keen. "An active diff would be a better compromise than a mechanical limited-slip diff," says Clark. Plotting one on the new Esprit maybe...?

Exige S is faster with DPM in race mode
Exige S is faster with DPM in race mode
But then the attitude at Lotus is a reminder that purist drivers have a racer's disdain for lurid slides. Says Clark of the DPM stability system, "It'll only kick in if you've made a mistake."

Author
Discussion

marmite monster

Original Poster:

143 posts

227 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
I quite like the button in my e46 330i ...on and off smile

jon-

16,509 posts

216 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
marmite monster said:
I quite like the button in my e46 330i ...on and off smile
Indeed.

Are these new systems the manufacturers actually encouraging us, or just providing a slightly less oppressive safety net? I guess that's good for road heroics (if you're that way inclined), but I'd imagine on a track, "off" is still the only option worth considering (apart from maybe the lotus system)

The GT86 is a refreshing change though. RWD ftw.

Jazzy Jefferson

728 posts

141 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
"10 years ago, you couldn't do lift-off oversteer in a Ford"

Erm... yes you could....?

sc0tt

18,041 posts

201 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
Tiff Sliding a Puma

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTgXI1RlseE

Fantastic

jon-

16,509 posts

216 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
Even the original KA will offer a little lift off oversteer.

As I've been pulled by the police for demonstrating boxedin

NickGibbs

1,258 posts

231 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
Jazzy Jefferson said:
"10 years ago, you couldn't do lift-off oversteer in a Ford"

Erm... yes you could....?
He meant Ford couldn't go around specifically engineering it in.

I know it's still possible if you're aggressive enough!

Krikkit

26,527 posts

181 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
jon- said:
Are these new systems the manufacturers actually encouraging us, or just providing a slightly less oppressive safety net? I guess that's good for road heroics (if you're that way inclined), but I'd imagine on a track, "off" is still the only option worth considering (apart from maybe the lotus system)

The GT86 is a refreshing change though. RWD ftw.
That's the whole point though - having a system which lets you have a bit of a hoon, yet retains the safety net in case you get it really, really wrong.

Triumph Man

8,690 posts

168 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
NickGibbs said:
Jazzy Jefferson said:
"10 years ago, you couldn't do lift-off oversteer in a Ford"

Erm... yes you could....?
He meant Ford couldn't go around specifically engineering it in.

I know it's still possible if you're aggressive enough!
My mum managed it in her Focus around a roundabout! Scared her a bit...

Pazlaarr

54 posts

174 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
[redacted]

RacerMike

4,205 posts

211 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
Hilariously, the Bosch system in the Lotus is nothing special. In fact it's the last generation modulator that's been in a good majority of cars for the last 5 years. The only difference is the way it's tuned!

Al 450

1,390 posts

221 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
RacerMike said:
Hilariously, the Bosch system in the Lotus is nothing special. In fact it's the last generation modulator that's been in a good majority of cars for the last 5 years. The only difference is the way it's tuned!
That's all any DSC system is, a valve block and pump that can brake wheels independently according to commands from a control unit that has information from various sensors. Typically steering angle, yaw rate, lateral acceleration, engine torque, vehicle speed and wheel speed. It will also have input into the engine module to allow it to modulate engine torque as required. Only a handful of different units are used across all manufacturers with different tunes being the only differentiator.

RacerMike

4,205 posts

211 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
Al 450 said:
That's all any DSC system is, a valve block and pump that can brake wheels independently according to commands from a control unit that has information from various sensors. Typically steering angle, yaw rate, lateral acceleration, engine torque, vehicle speed and wheel speed. It will also have input into the engine module to allow it to modulate engine torque as required. Only a handful of different units are used across all manufacturers with different tunes being the only differentiator.
All the magical 'mue calculation' stuff their media department banded around though is actually nothing new. In fact, it's one of the core calculations within any ESP or ABS system for at least a decade!

As an OEM, all you get to play around with, if you're very lucky, is the parameter tuning level. All the calculations and system level of software is controlled by the supplier, so you effectively get what you're given. Hence, everything from a Citroen to a Ferrari has the same fundamental calculation and control stratergy for understeer, overteer, traction, abs etc.

tigger1

8,402 posts

221 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
[redacted]

adambcvg

70 posts

173 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
[redacted]

PaulMoor

3,209 posts

163 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
And this is why people love MX5's... Mine has a nice button just marked "DSC off". Simple, neat, and never any forced nannys.

V12 Migaloo

813 posts

146 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
The thing with this tail out shannanigans is that their will be a point where lesser drivers will bottle it, come off the gas and be unable to catch the slide... and then expect the ABS to reverse the laws of physics. Or come round a bend and see a nice large artic heading ones way. For us driving Gods we can cope, but imagine the unsuspecting person who buys the GT86 only to find they cant go round a corner without dropping their load! Catch my drift??

psychoR1

1,069 posts

187 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
Back in the day I remember pulling a briliant (or so I thought) lift off drift accross Blaxton crossroads on my way back from the rainy Sunday morning stages at Lindholme.
Unfortunately a Bib in a panda (chevette saloon IIRC) arrived at the crossroads to take a grandstand view just as I drifted accross his bows.
Sure enough he turns round and pulls me and after inspecting all four tyres on the mini tells me "that was possibly the worst driving he had ever seen" luckily you cant be prosecuted for your passengers comments - they didnt agree and told him so!

Leins

9,468 posts

148 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
marmite monster said:
I quite like the button in my e46 330i ...on and off smile
You mean on, still sort of on, and off! wink

Mr Whippy

29,033 posts

241 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
It's still electronic nannying over-riding the need for fundamentally intuitive vehicle behaviour beyond the tyre limits.

Only those cars that drive really nicely with everything OFF, are worthy of note in this regard imo.

Having electrics help you drift around every bend doesn't really interest me as I know it's false, and I guess that is the issue for any driver interested in mastering their car?

ON and OFF is indeed the way to go.

Imo you either want to master the car or you want to be safe, being able to play safely just feels like a game to me and as such not very rewarding!?


Hmmmm

Dave

Captain Muppet

8,540 posts

265 months

Wednesday 13th February 2013
quotequote all
V12 Migaloo said:
The thing with this tail out shannanigans is that their will be a point where lesser drivers will bottle it, come off the gas and be unable to catch the slide... and then expect the ABS to reverse the laws of physics. Or come round a bend and see a nice large artic heading ones way. For us driving Gods we can cope, but imagine the unsuspecting person who buys the GT86 only to find they cant go round a corner without dropping their load! Catch my drift??
Everyone who drove a car before 1995 was either a rally driver or dead. No normal human could cope with the lack of electronic aids.