Tuesday 4th June 2013

Alpine needs its 911

Get the first car right and the French sports car brand will grow into an empire, Renault says

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The first Alpine from the collaboration between Renault and Caterham will be the brand-builder model equivalent to Porsche's 911, according to Renault's head designer.

A110-inspired concept hints at direction

In a conversation that revealed the scale of the ambition Renault has for the revived French sports car brand, Laurens van den Acker told us that for the first model, "We need to create the 911 of Alpine. Then we can do the Panamera and Cayman. It needs to have all the roots of the brand on which we can build."

We still don't know the spec for the car, which is slated to launch in 2016, but Renault boss Carlos Tavares did reveal that the basics have been agreed. "The layout of platform, engine and gearbox are all decided," he told us, without telling us. The first car won't chase the 911, but instead is expected to aim for the Cayman and Alfa 4C with a mid-engined coupe powered by a version of Renault's 1.6-litre turbo and mated to a faster dual-clutch gearbox. The cost will be nearer £50,000 than £30,000 as first thought. As we previously discovered in an interview with key players, including Alpine's boss, the goal is to be light and fun.

Alfa 4C is directly in Alpine's line of fire

A vision of the car has already been revealed in concept form last May, but we're told the finished item will likely go deeper in its visual references to the pretty A110 of the 60s and 70s, recently chased by PH in the Monte Carlo Historique.

That's what the 'Khmer Bleu' (hardcore French Alpinists) are pushing for, according to van den Acker, and what they'll probably get. "It will be closer to the spirit of the A110," said concept car director Axel Breun.

The desire to emulate Porsche is understandable given its 'most profitable' status but, come on guys, isn't Porsche pretty much untouchable in this market? "No one is untouchable, but it takes a lot of time," Breun told us. "It took them a long time to develop the 911 into something great."

Can Renault really win this fight?

Alpine (pronounced Alpeen if you don't want to upset those Khmer Bleu boys) has definitely got a job on if it wants to avoid the fate of recent Porsche chaser Lotus. Let's hope Alpine's Malaysian money (via Caterham owner Tony Fernandes) is available on a longer-term basis. Alpine's task is arguably tougher than that of Lotus in that the brand has been dormant for so long. Says van den Acker, "The challenge is to somehow fill the gap of 20 years and do a product that's believable." We wish it and Caterham all the luck.

 

 

 

[ClarkyboyS]

if it looks anything like the concept... I need one in my life!

[ewenm]

Hopefully the Caterham version will be nearer £30k than £50k. No doubt that's a vain hope though

Good luck to both Caterham and Alpine

[KMB]

It's a bold move, I hope Renaultsport can pull it off!

[Mark Benson]

"We need to create the 911 of Alpine. Then we can do the Panamera and Cayman. It needs to have all the roots of the brand on which we can build."

Porsche built the 911 brand over 40 years before they brought out the Panamera and Cayman - in the meantime they brought out the 914, 924, 944 etc. Porsche spent a long time building their brand to get where they are today - wonder if Renault will be as patient....

And £50k? No matter how good the car is, will many people pay £50k for a Renault 1.6?

[Dr G]

Nobody 'wins' fights with Porsche but you can certainly leave it with a bloody nose (R8).

[Watchman]

Mark Benson said:

And £50k? No matter how good the car is, will many people pay £50k for a Renault 1.6?

No. I think this is the main item that will kill it off.

[Technomatt]

ClarkyboyS said:

if it looks anything like the concept... I need one in my life!

Renault has already declared it will look nothing like the concept and will also be completely different from the Caterham version on the same chassis. Also a 1.6 Turbo, so nothing to get too excited about.

Cost apparently depends to large extent on the material choice for the chassis and that is where the concern will be. Just too expensive or about right to lure potential Alfa 4C and Cayman owners and different enough to sell to those aspirational 35 year olds and well healed 50 year olds?

This is going to end up being a sort of replica of a soft Exige and we all know what sort of trouble Lotus is in right now.... and if it really does end up priced at the £50K mark, it shifts it into a whole new world of competition pain, with other niche stuff like the Evora etc.

Lotus already has heritage, established residuals and a great track record in the segment, so it’s going to be one big uphill struggle for the new boys.

I also wonder who are the potential winners in this tie up between Renault and Caterham. I can’t help feeling Caterham will come out the ultimate winners.

[kambites]

Certainly looks like an interesting competitor for the 4C. To my mind both cars seem rather expensive for what they offer, though.

I'm even less convinced that Renault know how to set up a car like this than Alfa do. Whilst they to have recent RWD experience, none of the results have exactly been the best of chassis. Hopefully they'll let Caterham do the final chassis setup.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 4th June 11:34

[kambites]

The Crack Fox said:

But it's NOT a Renault ! It's an Alpine, differnent marque, different car and the marque has some decent heritage it isn't some crappy marketing exercise - it's the real deal. See below;

So why does it have a huge Renault badge on the nose and "Renault" written in foot high letters across the wing of the concept?

[toppstuff]

Holy Hyperbole ! Love the ambition and the way they talk the game.

I hate to be negative, but it ain't gonna happen.

It would take billions to build a range of cars to take on Porsche. And starting with a low volume, specialist sports car is not going to work. They simply won't sell enough of them. The Alpine brand means little in Asia or the US.

Not enough people will care. And Renault is struggling as it is.

[Lowtimer]

[quote=Mark Benson

And £50k? No matter how good the car is, will many people pay £50k for a Renault 1.6?
[/quote]

Here's a 1.3 for sale for £36K, if that helps.
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C329203

And a 1.4 for £42K.
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C366184

To be honest though it does sound a lot for a new one. £40K maybe, it will struggle at £50K, but then how many do they want to sell? Probably not many.

[Matt UK]

Mark Benson said:

"We need to create the 911 of Alpine. Then we can do the Panamera and Cayman. It needs to have all the roots of the brand on which we can build."

Porsche built the 911 brand over 40 years before they brought out the Panamera and Cayman - in the meantime they brought out the 914, 924, 944 etc. Porsche spent a long time building their brand to get where they are today - wonder if Renault will be as patient....

And £50k? No matter how good the car is, will many people pay £50k for a Renault 1.6?

You make a fair point there, but consider Porsches new major market, China. The sales are all about the 4x4 and the big saloon. I think in the modern world, a good product can become a good 'brand' very quickly indeed. Again, think about how Pagani rocked the establishment with their very first car.

As for 1.6 engine size, I think it comes down to how it drives and power/weight ratio - just look at what Caterham can charge for their top models!

I really like where this project is going and wish them all the best. It it encourages the car industry to wake up to the benefits of low weight and get the costs down (as opposed to the German approach of thumping ever more horsepower into ever bigger bodies and calling them sports cars) then I think the 'drivers car' has a very bright future indeed.

[kambites]

Matt UK said:

As for 1.6 engine size, I think it comes down to how it drives and power/weight ratio - just look at what Caterham can charge for their top models!

Would Renault be happy with Caterham Superlight-esque sales volumes, though?

[MX7]

This is like Pastor Maldonado aspiring to be the new Michael Schumacher.

I'm sure that there is a place in the market for the Alpine, but it will be in a similar place to the previous Alpines.

[StottyZr]

Technomatt said:

ClarkyboyS said:

if it looks anything like the concept... I need one in my life!

Renault has already declared it will look nothing like the concept

That is very dissapointing.

[T1berious]

Considering Caterham currently does cars at 40K and doesn't even pretend to be a Porsche competitor I think 50K isn't such a big ask for the Alpine. The problem is it has to be as good as the Cayman and no doubt have a Cayman R to deal with.

And there's Rub, while Alpine gets ready to release whatever its going to release so will other manufacturers be moving the game on (Alfa etc). Would have to be crazy special to also get past the brand snobbery (case in point the GTR has to wipe the floor with all the established brands to be taken seriously and still has a stigma!).

I wish them every success though; maybe it will be the left field choice like SAAB once was

[Matt UK]

kambites said:

Matt UK said:

As for 1.6 engine size, I think it comes down to how it drives and power/weight ratio - just look at what Caterham can charge for their top models!

Would Renault be happy with Caterham Superlight-esque sales volumes, though?

Genuinely don't know - but I guess not.

Thing is, the Caterham is not practical and is a UK curiosity. If this thing has the performance and is practical enough and can be sold around the world, then the sales jump up a fair bit.

I guess my point is that in the new world of turbo-charging and engine management, are people really fussed about engine size? I know there is a legacy that 'bigger is better' and a multi-cyl engines have their own charm, but I certainly work on a 'smaller is better' principle if the power is there.

But then thats why my weekender is a screaming 4-pot Caterham and not a hauling V8 Mustang. If one could purchase a 200bhp Caterham with an incredibily small, light 1.0lt 3-pot engine, which improved the handling and bhp/tonne even further I'd been very keen to see what that feels like. The fact that it's a 1.0 rather than a 1.8 makes not odds. I do have reservations about the feel of n/a vs turbocharged engine in a car of this sort, but seeing as I've never tried FI in a Caterham, I can't really comment too much. If the set up allows it to rev high and scream all the the way to the redline though, I'm warming to the idea!

[TurboBlue]

The Crack Fox said:

But it's NOT a Renault ! It's an Alpine, differnent marque, different car and the marque has some decent heritage it isn't some crappy marketing exercise - it's the real deal. See below;

The real shame is that they stopped the development of their 911 brand when they ceased production of the Alpine A610 and Sport Spider a long time ago and never really tried to re-capture the market (Clio V6 notwithstanding, although that is a different beast). As the article suggests they will have to have perseverance and integrity to develop the Alpine brand and I'm looking forward to seeing what they do.

[TREMAiNE]

As much as I love the look of this, the price and badge snobbery will be the Aplines Achilles Heel in my opinion.

[PunterCam]

A 1.6 automatic. Renault, sort it the fk out. If they make a car that looks like this and then ruin it...

I also have no interest in the Alfa 4c because of its engine. And it looks a bit cheap, somehow... The only car making inroads in the small coupe area is the Toyburu, and even that doesn't have the right engine... If they gave it a high revving 2.5 version of their engine, with 260bhp and plenty of torque it would be the only option south of the Cayman S.