RE: Aston Martin and AMG: PH Blog
Friday 26th July 2013
So, are we concerned that when we lift the bonnet of future Aston Martins we may well be greeted by a Mercedes star on top of the engine? Some commentators seem to be, there being a degree of soul searching about 'ze Germans' getting a shoe-in on this most British of motoring icons.
Aston's V12 lovely but days are numberedPHers are, of course, smarter than that though, the comment thread following our news story earlier in the week pretty much unanimously favourable in tone and summed up thus: we love AMG engines, we love Aston Martins - great!
Does it matter if German engines go in here?If not AMG then who? A few have said Aston should've stuck with recent tradition and gone to Ford which, after all, has that brawny Mustang V8 that'd fit well with old-school Aston manners and avoid the supposed shame of a German powerplant. Unlike the, er, Cologne-built V12s used currently of course.
If you're going to trust anyone to build you a V8...Neighbours Jaguar Land Rover then? That'd be the most obvious alternative but their V8 is getting on a bit too.
Aston Martin and AMG: PH Blog
German engines in a British icon? Should we be standing for it?
Aston's V12 lovely but days are numbered
The business case is obvious enough. As a builder of fewer than 5,000 cars per year on what's perceived, rightly or wrongly, a solid but aging platform Aston badly needs to invest in new product. It's had a bit of a cash injection but nothing like enough to develop a cutting edge powerplant that can play against the big boys yet meet all the latest emissions standards. So it was going to have to buy engines in from somewhere.
AMG has everything from high specific output four-cylinders to naturally aspirated and turbocharged V8s in the 400-600hp area future Astons would surely be looking at. It can also supply mega horsepower V12s for halo models, if required. But turbos? In an Aston? Isn't that a bit, well, vulgar?
Does it matter if German engines go in here?
Mighty as it is the Ford V8 isn't as 'futureproof' as the AMG alternatives and right now Aston needs to be looking forwards, not backwards. So, yes, turbos.
What about the Italians then? After all, DB-era Astons were never shy about their Italian styling influences and, via Maserati, Ferrari is building a new range of modern twin-turbo V6s and V8s that might have done. And Fiat needs the cash. But possibly not enough to equip a direct rival with its newest powerplants, even if there were capacity in Ferrari's engine production line.
If you're going to trust anyone to build you a V8...
Audi has a good range of normally aspirated and turbocharged V8s to choose from too. But little tradition of sharing them outside of the group. And of the Germans only AMG has really managed to carry the traditional V8 character into the turbocharged era intact.
All of this misses the most obvious reason for this being the dream collaboration of course. AMG's name is an abbreviation of the founders' names and the town in which the business was originally based.
Aston Martin, Gaydon anyone?
They won't even have to change the logos on the castings!
Dan
Discussion
Yes, aware of that. Was just having a bit of fun with it. 
Mixed opinions on this really but seeing as i'm highly unlikely to ever afford to buy an Aston it really makes no difference to me as it long as they still look good, sound good, goes like stink BUT most importantly SURVIVE.
Sign of the times really. Things need to progress like it or not and the companies that occasionaly compromise or adapt will survive. What bothers me is the ones that have the financial Clout will be the ones that have better say in the relationship conflict between what people demand, and what can be realistically supplied.
Sign of the times really. Things need to progress like it or not and the companies that occasionaly compromise or adapt will survive. What bothers me is the ones that have the financial Clout will be the ones that have better say in the relationship conflict between what people demand, and what can be realistically supplied.
The fears expressed are not in the whole about 'Germanz vs the Brits' anyway. To focus on this as a point of discussion is misguided, because we all know that manufacturing cars is an international business. What matters however is the Brand Value. Its about AM maintaining this as a manufacturers of sports cars. i.e this is what I had to say:
"This smacks of lazyness on behalf of Aston Martin.
For any manufacturer to retain any long term credibility at the level they intend to sell their cars, they need to demonstrate that their cars are thoroughbreds, just like the Astons of old. In order for their cars to be considered as such, they will be expected to engineer their own powertrains. Yes, yes, they may have blocks from Jaguar Ford, but everyone knows (or is under the impression) of the amount of imput they presently have to make the V8s and V12s the way they are.
Many here have failed to appreciate the amount of engineering that has gone into making sure the basic structures, all be it from Jaguar and Ford, have been significantly reworked on by AM to draw as much power as possible. AM no doubt used the engineering know how to pull nearly 470 bhp from the 4.7 V8 and 565bhp from the 5.9litre V12. Neither Ford nor Jaguar gave AM the engines in these tunes, so this effort helps mask the source and draws a great deal respect for AM's ability to produce powerful ad charismatic engines. It goes without saying that there is nothing wrong with the engines they have place.
Those seeking to sell their cars in the future would arguably see significant returns on the AMs that have home developed engines, but this is not a one way street. That a 250 SWB makes £8m (not even going to mention the 250GTO because that’s an extreme example) enhances Ferrari's current reputation and demand in the same way its current 4.5 V8 developed by Ferrari builds on it. The different markets feed one another. Heritage feeds modernity, but modernity will only build on this if the principles within its heritage are maintained. The 'average buyer' looking to spend £100k+ on a car will appreciate this, whether they come from the States, Europe, or Japan and these markets are far from dead. The Russians and the Chinese may not know either way, but that’s a presumption and even if true, they are but two parts of a global market.
Those that emphasize the 'pragmatism' and 'financial realities' fail to appreciate the long term consequences of what amounts to a cost cutting exercise. Yes in the near future, it may benefit Aston Martin to stick AMG engines. Long Term, when arguably considered compromised as simply a glorified coachbuilder, the situation could well be very different. Just look at De Tomaso and Monteverdi and others who used standard crate engines.
Some have thought of Pagani or McLaren F1 as a reason to challenge this view. Pagani was a start-up. It had no heritage. It had everything to gain and built its reputation on bespoke chassis and materials. In addition, the AMG unit built, as Mr Pagani emphasized himself, was specifically designed for the car, not some crate off the shelf unit. It’s the same with the McLaren F1. Regardless, Pagani will never ever gain the same respect and adoration as marques like Ferrari and Porsche. The McLaren F1 was never really a success to begin with and it is only now considered to be 'great' because A) it was the quickest car in the world with the highest top speed B) it had bespoke architecture, and C) it was highly successful on the circuit. Yes it had a BMW engine too, which most importantly was not made available for BMW itself.
The Pagani relies on its bespoke construction and the specially built engine too.
Aston is highly unlikely to offer any of these attributes.
Indeed it is because McLaren is in pursuit of a similar halo to Porsche and Ferrari, that it made the right decision to collaborate with Ricardo. Providing they are aggressive in their pursuit, they will themselves get there. Aston had everything to gain by going down this route with either Ricardo or Cosworth. Instead, it now risks being seen as a 'coachbuilder' with a fancy engine, except that it will be neither Bertone, nor Pininfarina.
AM should not make the mistake of abdicating entirely, their responsibility over powertrain engineering to another manufacturer, notwithstanding that it may be AMG, for they will lose what credibility they have as Aston Martin. This is what I fear for AM and what I have stated is subject to how they approach this 'collaboration'. If the engines are worked on together then it may not be such an issue. If they are the same engines as those found on an SLS, or worse SL, then AM will in my view be seen as compromised.
AMG Mercedes will only benefit from this collaboration; it will be considered the manufacturer providing the heart of the vehicle and their reputation for building engines for others will only enhance their standing."
Obviously, I like Aston Martin for what it represents and perhaps an element of what it represents is 'Britishness' but this only a part of it. Its mostly its heritage, followed by its good looks and perhaps a bit of 007.
I would say the same if it was any of the other brands I like and follow. The fact that its British obviously has some influence on my view, but its not as simple as that.
"This smacks of lazyness on behalf of Aston Martin.
For any manufacturer to retain any long term credibility at the level they intend to sell their cars, they need to demonstrate that their cars are thoroughbreds, just like the Astons of old. In order for their cars to be considered as such, they will be expected to engineer their own powertrains. Yes, yes, they may have blocks from Jaguar Ford, but everyone knows (or is under the impression) of the amount of imput they presently have to make the V8s and V12s the way they are.
Many here have failed to appreciate the amount of engineering that has gone into making sure the basic structures, all be it from Jaguar and Ford, have been significantly reworked on by AM to draw as much power as possible. AM no doubt used the engineering know how to pull nearly 470 bhp from the 4.7 V8 and 565bhp from the 5.9litre V12. Neither Ford nor Jaguar gave AM the engines in these tunes, so this effort helps mask the source and draws a great deal respect for AM's ability to produce powerful ad charismatic engines. It goes without saying that there is nothing wrong with the engines they have place.
Those seeking to sell their cars in the future would arguably see significant returns on the AMs that have home developed engines, but this is not a one way street. That a 250 SWB makes £8m (not even going to mention the 250GTO because that’s an extreme example) enhances Ferrari's current reputation and demand in the same way its current 4.5 V8 developed by Ferrari builds on it. The different markets feed one another. Heritage feeds modernity, but modernity will only build on this if the principles within its heritage are maintained. The 'average buyer' looking to spend £100k+ on a car will appreciate this, whether they come from the States, Europe, or Japan and these markets are far from dead. The Russians and the Chinese may not know either way, but that’s a presumption and even if true, they are but two parts of a global market.
Those that emphasize the 'pragmatism' and 'financial realities' fail to appreciate the long term consequences of what amounts to a cost cutting exercise. Yes in the near future, it may benefit Aston Martin to stick AMG engines. Long Term, when arguably considered compromised as simply a glorified coachbuilder, the situation could well be very different. Just look at De Tomaso and Monteverdi and others who used standard crate engines.
Some have thought of Pagani or McLaren F1 as a reason to challenge this view. Pagani was a start-up. It had no heritage. It had everything to gain and built its reputation on bespoke chassis and materials. In addition, the AMG unit built, as Mr Pagani emphasized himself, was specifically designed for the car, not some crate off the shelf unit. It’s the same with the McLaren F1. Regardless, Pagani will never ever gain the same respect and adoration as marques like Ferrari and Porsche. The McLaren F1 was never really a success to begin with and it is only now considered to be 'great' because A) it was the quickest car in the world with the highest top speed B) it had bespoke architecture, and C) it was highly successful on the circuit. Yes it had a BMW engine too, which most importantly was not made available for BMW itself.
The Pagani relies on its bespoke construction and the specially built engine too.
Aston is highly unlikely to offer any of these attributes.
Indeed it is because McLaren is in pursuit of a similar halo to Porsche and Ferrari, that it made the right decision to collaborate with Ricardo. Providing they are aggressive in their pursuit, they will themselves get there. Aston had everything to gain by going down this route with either Ricardo or Cosworth. Instead, it now risks being seen as a 'coachbuilder' with a fancy engine, except that it will be neither Bertone, nor Pininfarina.
AM should not make the mistake of abdicating entirely, their responsibility over powertrain engineering to another manufacturer, notwithstanding that it may be AMG, for they will lose what credibility they have as Aston Martin. This is what I fear for AM and what I have stated is subject to how they approach this 'collaboration'. If the engines are worked on together then it may not be such an issue. If they are the same engines as those found on an SLS, or worse SL, then AM will in my view be seen as compromised.
AMG Mercedes will only benefit from this collaboration; it will be considered the manufacturer providing the heart of the vehicle and their reputation for building engines for others will only enhance their standing."
Obviously, I like Aston Martin for what it represents and perhaps an element of what it represents is 'Britishness' but this only a part of it. Its mostly its heritage, followed by its good looks and perhaps a bit of 007.
I would say the same if it was any of the other brands I like and follow. The fact that its British obviously has some influence on my view, but its not as simple as that.
RemyMartin said:
Anything that
A) keeps Aston Martin going
B) has V12 in its back catalogue
C) makes great sounding V8s
Is not a bad thing.
A big, free revving, high-pitched, non-turbocharged V12 would be perfect. Oh wait, they already have that. I was tempted by a CL65 one day until I noticed it had a sound similar to a vacuum cleaner. I hope nobody believes Pagani will let Merc send that V12 to anyone else...A) keeps Aston Martin going
B) has V12 in its back catalogue
C) makes great sounding V8s
Is not a bad thing.
Andy ap said:
Would it be good to see a Cosworth powered AM? I cant imagine the links between Ford AM and Cosworth being too 'out there'?
I think Cosworth would have been a good option, but whether they could have made an engine as good (efficient) as AMG can for the same price would be questionable due to the economies of scale that AMG will enjoy in comparison to Cosworth.Just look how much the Cosworth scooby cost when they did the special edition a few years ago...
chelme said:
The fears expressed are not in the whole about 'Germanz vs the Brits' anyway. To focus on this as a point of discussion is misguided, because we all know that manufacturing cars is an international business. What matters however is the Brand Value. Its about AM maintaining this as a manufacturers of sports cars. i.e this is what I had to say:
Thanks for that, thought provoking stuff and thanks for following up your earlier post in such detail. Great counterpoint to our original blog and thoroughly thought out. Bravo!
Dan
Chelme:
Very well put and I believe that the laziness Attitude from AM is a big part of this.
McLaren have done exactly the right thing to give their car pedigree by producing an engine. Others on the alternate threads on this matter have said oh yes but the McLaren engine developed by Ricardo was the left overs from a Nissan funded project. If this is true then well done for McLaren seizing an opportunity to make it their own. There are a lot of small engine developers out there that could have helped Aston and not for the £100's of millions other are quoting. I seem to remember Motor Moderni trying to sell an engine project only a few years ago without any takers there has to be a better alternative to off the shelf AMG. I bet Al Melling could have done the job for sensible money. Radical produced their own high bred V8 out of other engines I know this would not necessarily be good enough for current world wide emissions but they done that on a shoe string in comparison to the big manufactures. I do not mean fit a radical engine I am just saying what can be achieved with clever engineers and small budgets. I do wonder if Aston lack the engineering skill to cope with producing a proper car any more and need just to be able to produce a car from a kit with parts supplied by many other sources.
Very well put and I believe that the laziness Attitude from AM is a big part of this.
McLaren have done exactly the right thing to give their car pedigree by producing an engine. Others on the alternate threads on this matter have said oh yes but the McLaren engine developed by Ricardo was the left overs from a Nissan funded project. If this is true then well done for McLaren seizing an opportunity to make it their own. There are a lot of small engine developers out there that could have helped Aston and not for the £100's of millions other are quoting. I seem to remember Motor Moderni trying to sell an engine project only a few years ago without any takers there has to be a better alternative to off the shelf AMG. I bet Al Melling could have done the job for sensible money. Radical produced their own high bred V8 out of other engines I know this would not necessarily be good enough for current world wide emissions but they done that on a shoe string in comparison to the big manufactures. I do not mean fit a radical engine I am just saying what can be achieved with clever engineers and small budgets. I do wonder if Aston lack the engineering skill to cope with producing a proper car any more and need just to be able to produce a car from a kit with parts supplied by many other sources.
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