PistonHeads > Gassing Station > General Gassing > General Gassing > RE: Merc shows fuel cell concept
Thursday 20th October 2005

Merc shows fuel cell concept

Technology-stuffed vehicle runs on hydrogen


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Fuel cell & transmission
Fuel cell & transmission
Under the bonnet
Under the bonnet
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The DaimlerChrysler group is showing off its new fuel cell-powered car at the Tokyo Motor Show. It's one of many such vehicles that have been produced as concepts in recent years, as the industry tests alternative fuel technologies -- fuel cell propulsion is the current long-term front runner.

This one, the archly-named F600 Hygenius, is said to be 40 per cent more compact, more efficient, is better at cold starts -- fuel cells run hot -- and is the company's first fuel cell/battery hybrid. It's more powerful as a result, reckoned MB.

"This has been achieved thanks to the inclusion of innovations such as the redesigned fuel stacks, the electric turbocharger for supplying air and an all-new humidification and dehumidification system", said research director Professor Herbert Kohler.

The hydrogen-powered F600 returns the equivalent of about 99mpg and has an output of 115bhp and a peak torque of 258lb-ft. The car's range of 250 miles on a tank of hydrogen is, said the company, a record, although it gave no solution for the problem of fossil fuel-based hydrogen production.

How it works

Surplus energy is stored in a lithium-ion battery -- the same technology as powers your  mobile phone -- and the system acts like a hybrid car, selecting the best power source to use depending on the driving situation.

When parking or manoeuvring, for instance, the electric motor draws its power from the battery alone, while both fuel cell and battery provide energy when the vehicle is accelerating. The electric motor doubles as a generator that charges the battery during vehicle braking by recuperating drive energy.

The drive technology, high-voltage battery and hydrogen tank are housed beneath the occupants, so saving space, while the electric motor is integrated into the rear-axle carrier.

Other technologies

Given that the machine is a concept and there's therefore little point in building it down to a price, MB has filled it with a number of conceptual widgets like drinks holders that can keep your drink either cold or hot, cameras everywhere so that the door opening mechanism is disabled if it spots a car or cyclist alongside the car, along with warnings if the driver moves to change lanes while there's a car in the adjacent lane.

There's also a range of other technologies that seem likely to show up in future cars such as the S Class, as featured here on PistonHeads (see link below). These include all-LED lighting inside and out, and greater use of head-up displays (HUD). Mercedes-Benz said that the Active Body Control system in today's CL-Class, S-Class and SL-Class cars is an example of technology transfer from research to production vehicles, along with windowbags, Active Light System, voice-operated control and the carbon-fibre bodyshell.

This is Merc's 11th such research vehicle since 1981. But will sound as good as a 6-litre V8 on full song?

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Wildfire

Original PosterOriginal Poster

7,534 posts

79 months

[news] 
Thursday 20th October 2005 quote
Ok so the bhp isn't staggering but 258 l/bs of torque is pretty good. And at 99mpg.

stig

7,937 posts

111 months

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Thursday 20th October 2005 quote
All the hydrogen fuel cell hype makes me laugh. To actually MAKE the hydrogen in the first place requires way more fossil fuel (and associated pollution) than just using petrol/diesel.

Pointless manufacturer on-upmanship exercise.

Stephen White

99 posts

109 months

[news] 
Thursday 20th October 2005 quote
I must disagree - hydrogen can be made as 'greenly' as we want (solar-powered electric generation probably makes the most long-term sense). Fuel-cell cars are stupid, because fuel-cells make electricity in slow, constant flows, not in the sharp bursts we need when driving; this means that such systems need way more battery storage capacity, to provide 'throttle' response. Also, fuel-cells are heavy, per watt. On the other hand, simply burning hydrogen like standard internal-combustion fuels makes excellent sense; just ask BMW.

Andrew D

908 posts

67 months

[news] 
Thursday 20th October 2005 quote
"But will sound as good as a 6-litre V8 on full song?"

I think once the oil's run out the F600 will sound decidedly better than a V8 that's never going to rotate again.

The suggestion that hydrogen is ecologically unsound to produce it misleading; it requires electricity to make and current electricity production is by means of burning fossil fuels, and generally dirty ones in power stations (i.e. coal or heavy oil). The fact of the matter is that if you wanted to build a windmill in your garden, you could run an electric car for ever for free, with zero chemical pollution (although noise and visual pollution might need to be considered). You'd have difficulty spontaneously producing petrol using a windmill.

This hydrogen stuff is interesting, but it's a method of producing electrical power (using electricity to produce the hydrogen and then turning it back doesn't really count as storage) and it seems to me that it would be better to produce the power remotely and store it in the car in batteries.

That new Venturi is battery powered and a real performance car, although quite costly ( 300k). However it does showcase what can be done with current technology and batteries will only get smaller and lighter in the future.

flossythepig

1,211 posts

70 months

[news] 
Thursday 20th October 2005 quote
Andrew D said:
"But will sound as good as a 6-litre V8 on full song?"

It's a whole new paradigm shift

Hugh
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r988

7,494 posts

56 months

[news] 
Thursday 20th October 2005 quote
flossythepig said:

Andrew D said:
"But will sound as good as a 6-litre V8 on full song?"


It's a whole new paradigm shift

Hugh


They could probably tune the sound, buts cars are being forced to be so quiet now anyway that the tyres are the loudest part of the car.

newromancer

512 posts

89 months

[news] 
Thursday 20th October 2005 quote
stig said:
All the hydrogen fuel cell hype makes me laugh. To actually MAKE the hydrogen in the first place requires way more fossil fuel (and associated pollution) than just using petrol/diesel.


Not really true.

To make hydrogen you need electricety. A lot.

Most of the power is generated by burning fossil fuel. And of course, as this procces doesn't come with any loss, it will need more fossile fuel as powering the car directly. - this is where you are right.

However, energie can be produced by lots of sources, like water, wind, nuclear of fusion reactors. The idea behind it is, that it is easier to replace a few power plants as to replace all the cars on the road.

And I tend to agree.

Avocet

792 posts

82 months

[news] 
Thursday 20th October 2005 quote
Stephen White said:
I must disagree - hydrogen can be made as 'greenly' as we want (solar-powered electric generation probably makes the most long-term sense). Fuel-cell cars are stupid, because fuel-cells make electricity in slow, constant flows, not in the sharp bursts we need when driving; this means that such systems need way more battery storage capacity, to provide 'throttle' response. Also, fuel-cells are heavy, per watt. On the other hand, simply burning hydrogen like standard internal-combustion fuels makes excellent sense; just ask BMW.


I absolutely agree! I can't see why they're all messing about using hydrogen to make electricity to put through a fuel cell to turn back into electricity to put back into an electric motor to turn it into mechanical energy! So many stages - each with their associated losses AND you have to find a home for an extra piece of kit - the fuel cell AND some batteries! Why not do what BMW do and burn it directly in the engine that's already there?! Why are BMW the only ones followig this seemingly "common sense" approach? You can even still run the Beemer on petrol when you can't get the hydrogen! The only downside I can see is the lousy energy density of the hydrogen so the BMW is down to about 200bhp on hydrogen but hey, use green electricity (tidal, wind, hydro, etc) to get the hydrogen and I think we're on to a winner!

Pigeon

17,040 posts

73 months

[news] 
Friday 21st October 2005 quote
Fuel cells are about twice as efficient as internal combustion engines so the hydrogen consumption is less for the same output. This is especially important given the amount of energy needed to produce the hydrogen in the first place.

Avocet

792 posts

82 months

[news] 
Friday 21st October 2005 quote
I think current Euro III diesels are getting on for about 40% efficient by themselves! The last figure I had for fuel cell efficiency (which, I admit was a couple of years ago now) was also about 40%. Have they really come on that much in 2 years? In any case, to make it a fair comparison, you'd need to also then take off the electric motor's efficiency (75%?) and the electrical control system's efficiency (90%?) to get a like-for-like figure.

sideways500

92 posts

83 months

[news] 
Friday 21st October 2005 quote
Something else to factor in .... In favour of electical motors, there are transmission loss improvements, due to more simple gearbox arrangements, I think.

dieseljohn

2,110 posts

83 months

[news] 
Friday 21st October 2005 quote
Pigeon said:
Fuel cells are about twice as efficient as internal combustion engines so the hydrogen consumption is less for the same output. This is especially important given the amount of energy needed to produce the hydrogen in the first place.


Ah, but what about the energy/cost required to produce the fuel cells?

ICEs haven't had their day just yet. If the oil does run out there are other ways of making hydrcocarbon fuels.

Renewable energy is a very long way from being suitable to meet our current energy needs without adding transport energy to the load on the grid. Fusion is the holy grail but when or if it will every become practical is completely unknown.

Regular nuclear fission reactors and hydrogen/biofuel/oil powered internal combustion engines is the best plan IMHO but far too many people are scared of the big N word.

pdV6

15,954 posts

88 months

[news] 
Friday 21st October 2005 quote
Wildfire said:
Ok so the bhp isn't staggering but 258 l/bs of torque is pretty good.

But what does it weigh? Lugging a large battery around is bound to put a dent in performance.
Wildfire said:
And at 99mpg.

I don't know why they bother with quoting mpg figures - its not like its running on petrol/diesel so how could the figures be comparable? What if it costs 50 a gallon to fill it up with Hydrogen - you'd be pretty annoyed if it used it up at a rate of 30mpg!
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