RE: Electric Lotus Elise gets a sibling
Thursday 23rd November 2006
Tesla Roadster gets siblingTesla Motors, California-based maker of the electric Elise -- aka Tesla Roadster -- is to make a four-seat saloon, rivalling the BMW 5-Series -- and there'll be an update of the Roadster by the end of the decade.
Electric Lotus Elise gets a sibling
Saloon car and second version on the way
Tesla Roadster gets sibling
Company vice-president Mike Harrigan told Autocar that the electric motor goes upfront along with the batteries, and that it'll be rear-wheel drive. Unlike the Tesla, it'll be sold globally, including the UK.
However, it seems unlikely that Lotus will supply the underpinnings of the new car, as it did for the bonded aluminium-based Tesla Roadster. Instead, the machine seems likely to be made of lightweight steel, with some 10,000 to 20,000 units turned out annually.
The company reckoned that new battery technology means it will be able to sell two versions of the car in the UK. The £30,000 entry-level car will offer similar output to the 185kW Roadster with a 200 mile range, while the £40,000 luxury variant gets more powerful batteries and a 300 mile range between charging stops.
There'll also be a top-end £55,000 version of the Roadster at some point, probably by 2010.
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Discussion
Tesla reckon it'll do 200-250miles between 2.5hr charges. Is that going to be a concern? I doubt it, who drives that far in a day? A reasonably practicle (perhaps not ergonomically) electric car that also sounds like it's genuine fun to drive. I'd be interested to see how much energy is used in its manufacture though, I know priuses don't break even until they've done 15000kms, and people may not own these that long (not long I know, but it is a sportscar and may be treated as thus).
I hope it comes to Australia.
Ali.
Edited to say oh yeah the saloon good idea guys. An environmental car drivers may want, as opposed to a statement.
I hope it comes to Australia.
Ali.
Edited to say oh yeah the saloon good idea guys. An environmental car drivers may want, as opposed to a statement.
Edited by FestivAli on Thursday 23 November 12:19
Batteries are still these things archillies heel.
Until someone develops a battery that can withstand at least 3700 cycles and has an operational life of 10 years, costs just £4,000 and can deliver at least 64kWh then we're going no where fast.
So far there are batteries that can do elements of the above. But none that can do all of the above.
Then of course there's the small matter of production volumes. What happens when we're collectiveley trying to make 10,000 tonnes a day of lithium polymer batteries??
How many cars are going to need built and how much rare earth metal will be needed?
Andy
Until someone develops a battery that can withstand at least 3700 cycles and has an operational life of 10 years, costs just £4,000 and can deliver at least 64kWh then we're going no where fast.
So far there are batteries that can do elements of the above. But none that can do all of the above.
Then of course there's the small matter of production volumes. What happens when we're collectiveley trying to make 10,000 tonnes a day of lithium polymer batteries??
How many cars are going to need built and how much rare earth metal will be needed?
Andy
andytk said:
Batteries are still these things archillies heel.
Until someone develops a battery that can withstand at least 3700 cycles and has an operational life of 10 years, costs just £4,000 and can deliver at least 64kWh then we're going no where fast.
So far there are batteries that can do elements of the above. But none that can do all of the above.
Then of course there's the small matter of production volumes. What happens when we're collectiveley trying to make 10,000 tonnes a day of lithium polymer batteries??
How many cars are going to need built and how much rare earth metal will be needed?
Andy
Until someone develops a battery that can withstand at least 3700 cycles and has an operational life of 10 years, costs just £4,000 and can deliver at least 64kWh then we're going no where fast.
So far there are batteries that can do elements of the above. But none that can do all of the above.
Then of course there's the small matter of production volumes. What happens when we're collectiveley trying to make 10,000 tonnes a day of lithium polymer batteries??
How many cars are going to need built and how much rare earth metal will be needed?
Andy
And what is the point of using aluminium (which uses more energy to produce than steel AFAIK) in a car that is carrying a half tonne of batteries? And where do you charge the car? In the street? People struggle for parking in cities as it is. And that's before we confront the issue of electricity supply. California (and there were mutterings about the UK) struggles to produce enough electricity for current demands, so where is the power going to come from for the estimated 30 million cars we have?
It might happen, but it's not going to be soon.
You don't have to worry about batteries. Just tow a a petrol powered generator in a trailer behind the car. If you plug it in to your recharge socket and keep the generator running while you drive, then you'll never run out of battery power. If the gerneator runs out, then you've got around 200 miles to find a "petrol station" where you can easily refil your battery charger. Simple.
FestivAli said:
Tesla reckon it'll do 200-250miles between 2.5hr charges. Is that going to be a concern? I doubt it, who drives that far in a day? A reasonably practicle (perhaps not ergonomically) electric car that also sounds like it's genuine fun to drive. I'd be interested to see how much energy is used in its manufacture though, I know priuses don't break even until they've done 15000kms, and people may not own these that long (not long I know, but it is a sportscar and may be treated as thus).
I hope it comes to Australia.
Ali.
Edited to say oh yeah the saloon good idea guys. An environmental car drivers may want, as opposed to a statement.
I hope it comes to Australia.
Ali.
Edited to say oh yeah the saloon good idea guys. An environmental car drivers may want, as opposed to a statement.
Edited by FestivAli on Thursday 23 November 12:19
Fine for commuting purposes only but I would easily travel more than that in a day if going somewhere on holiday or even just to see teh parents in law. Also when they are flat you can't just chuck in some charged ones, have to then find somewhere to charge them and sit there for the next couple of hours, great.
However, just had to chuckle at the "...light weight steel..." line from the article. As soon as they invent lightwieght steel I'm sure there will be a lot of buyers!
benyeats said:
What I think would be good is a standard for electric car batteries so that you could swap them at a 'filling' station when your run out, could be made to be quicker than a fill up with petrol.
Ben
Ben
You'd still have to unload your car and then the batteries... (It could probably be done with a battery pod that you remove from the side/rear with a pallet jack type device.)
mechsympathy said:
andytk said:
Batteries are still these things archillies heel.
Until someone develops a battery that can withstand at least 3700 cycles and has an operational life of 10 years, costs just £4,000 and can deliver at least 64kWh then we're going no where fast.
So far there are batteries that can do elements of the above. But none that can do all of the above.
Then of course there's the small matter of production volumes. What happens when we're collectiveley trying to make 10,000 tonnes a day of lithium polymer batteries??
How many cars are going to need built and how much rare earth metal will be needed?
Andy
Until someone develops a battery that can withstand at least 3700 cycles and has an operational life of 10 years, costs just £4,000 and can deliver at least 64kWh then we're going no where fast.
So far there are batteries that can do elements of the above. But none that can do all of the above.
Then of course there's the small matter of production volumes. What happens when we're collectiveley trying to make 10,000 tonnes a day of lithium polymer batteries??
How many cars are going to need built and how much rare earth metal will be needed?
Andy
And what is the point of using aluminium (which uses more energy to produce than steel AFAIK) in a car that is carrying a half tonne of batteries? And where do you charge the car? In the street? People struggle for parking in cities as it is. And that's before we confront the issue of electricity supply. California (and there were mutterings about the UK) struggles to produce enough electricity for current demands, so where is the power going to come from for the estimated 30 million cars we have?
It might happen, but it's not going to be soon.
Yup with regards to the batteries can have low weight and dump the current required when you plant your right foot.
Aluminium does takes more energy to produce from raw Ore, but actually takes less energy to recycle due to the lower temperature melting point. With the long term goal now becoming to recycle as much as possible the energy usage will acutally decrease with time due to the available quantities becoming more available due to increased use.
I have to say that my current plan for replacing the XKR in about 24 months time is to go electric.
I live in London and a suitable electric car would be perfect. With the right range, I can get to all the conventional places that I travel to by car and charge up at aech of those easily. The reduced taxes and sponging electricity off third parties
will save a lot of money compared to running the Jag.
It goes without saying that I will still be keeping the mentalist 2 seater in the garage for the times when electricity just won't cut the mustard.
Bring on the 4 seater, electric hatchback with a good range that doesn't look like a spac-wagon, and I will probably be a buyer.
I live in London and a suitable electric car would be perfect. With the right range, I can get to all the conventional places that I travel to by car and charge up at aech of those easily. The reduced taxes and sponging electricity off third parties
will save a lot of money compared to running the Jag. It goes without saying that I will still be keeping the mentalist 2 seater in the garage for the times when electricity just won't cut the mustard.
Bring on the 4 seater, electric hatchback with a good range that doesn't look like a spac-wagon, and I will probably be a buyer.
So how come the only cars we get in the UK
Have a 4KW motor
Struggle to do 30mph
Have a 50 mile range
Take 8 hours to charge
Look like they come from a children's animated TV program
And still cost nearly £10K
If you could get an electric car with top speed around 70-80mph, 0-60 =<12s, 100 mile range, two seats and a decent boot that looked OK and drove OK I might just be tempted. Price £10K - £15K maybe?
Have a 4KW motor
Struggle to do 30mph
Have a 50 mile range
Take 8 hours to charge
Look like they come from a children's animated TV program
And still cost nearly £10K
If you could get an electric car with top speed around 70-80mph, 0-60 =<12s, 100 mile range, two seats and a decent boot that looked OK and drove OK I might just be tempted. Price £10K - £15K maybe?
toltec said:
So how come the only cars we get in the UK
Have a 4KW motor
Struggle to do 30mph
Have a 50 mile range
Take 8 hours to charge
Look like they come from a children's animated TV program
And still cost nearly £10K
If you could get an electric car with top speed around 70-80mph, 0-60 =<12s, 100 mile range, two seats and a decent boot that looked OK and drove OK I might just be tempted. Price £10K - £15K maybe?
Have a 4KW motor
Struggle to do 30mph
Have a 50 mile range
Take 8 hours to charge
Look like they come from a children's animated TV program
And still cost nearly £10K
If you could get an electric car with top speed around 70-80mph, 0-60 =<12s, 100 mile range, two seats and a decent boot that looked OK and drove OK I might just be tempted. Price £10K - £15K maybe?
Completely agree.
At present the industry is being driven forward by the US who are focussing hugely on range, due to the size of their country. This simply isn't the issue in the UK.
Most journeys are probably less than 25M here and there would be the opportunity of charging up at at least one of the ends.
It is very interesting why this industry is not taking off and being pioneered better from the UK. It is actually what we are quite good at.
Why hasn't anyone built a retro EV using the original Lotus Elan shell? Why isn't there a proper hatchback? Why are there not sexy performance 2 seaters.
It does certainly seem strange.
OK, I live in London and the G-Wiz has really taken off. I see at least 2 every day and while the looks a quite spakky, they are cool. I could park one across the back of the Griff in my garage space.
What it won't do is get me out of town safely or range wise, whcih makes it a non starter for me.
I'm not really all that interested in this from the 'Green Angle' as I am a fully qualified GeoChemist and am well aware that CO2 is not the issue and that we are all being brainwashed into this ne religion of fear, in case the terrorsit threat can't be used to control us.
Incidentally, the Lithium in the batteries doesn't disapear so will be recycled. Replacement batteries as long as you hand over your old one won't be a huge expense.
The French Car is most likely the Venturi Fetish. 5th Gear tested one of the prototypes about 18 months ago and it is supposed to be pretty good. Apparently it is very quiet, so you hear tyre noise (and wind) over the "whirr" of the electric motor, and with all of its available torque being there from the moment you accelerate, its equivalent power (120bhp if I remember) is more than enough. Shame about the price though...
I am all for battery powered cars, however there are still a number of issues which dont yet make it an environmental cure-all. Firstly production of the batteries creates a lot of sulpher dioxide, so this somehow needs to be contained. Then we also have the difficulty of majority electricity production not coming from renewable sources. Additionally, until a suitable recharging infrastructure is in place, these cars would only be suitable for those with garges, unless you are a masochist that is.
These difficulties can however be overcome eventually, and as always, progress will be market driven (no pun intended). Tesla, Venturi etc need to get these cars to market and see significant sales, well maybe for a resonably priced car anyway
This will spur major manufacturers in to action, and the technology, infrastructure will develop.
There may well be a future for turbo nutter milk-floats yet!!
I am all for battery powered cars, however there are still a number of issues which dont yet make it an environmental cure-all. Firstly production of the batteries creates a lot of sulpher dioxide, so this somehow needs to be contained. Then we also have the difficulty of majority electricity production not coming from renewable sources. Additionally, until a suitable recharging infrastructure is in place, these cars would only be suitable for those with garges, unless you are a masochist that is.
These difficulties can however be overcome eventually, and as always, progress will be market driven (no pun intended). Tesla, Venturi etc need to get these cars to market and see significant sales, well maybe for a resonably priced car anyway
This will spur major manufacturers in to action, and the technology, infrastructure will develop. There may well be a future for turbo nutter milk-floats yet!!
Bollocks to the boo-boys and naysayers. This is a brilliant idea, and as long as they sell it at a similar price to a real Lotus Elise, it will rock.
There are a few hardcores on PH who use their Elises as long-distance daily drivers, but to the majority they are toys. An electric toy will sell purely because it's low maintenance, zero guilt and will drive brilliantly.
Electric motors have awesome torque delivery... one of these would be incredible on a track (until the batteries run out
) - no waiting to come on cam, or boost to kick in - assuming they use lithium polymer and the total weight doesn't creep above 950 kg or so, it'll drive like an Elise with shit-loads of low down torque.
The big question, as always, is the longevity of the batteries. If they can sort that, or design some exotic financial product to offset the cost of replacement against the likely future reduced cost of said batteries (battery tech is improving exponentially, replacement cost in 12 months is likely to be a lot less than replacement cost today, so some interest rate vs. predicted tech advance swap may be possible, it'd take a brave bank though... errr rambling there...)
I'd put my money where my mouth is - I'd buy one at £30k. Full stop.
There are a few hardcores on PH who use their Elises as long-distance daily drivers, but to the majority they are toys. An electric toy will sell purely because it's low maintenance, zero guilt and will drive brilliantly.
Electric motors have awesome torque delivery... one of these would be incredible on a track (until the batteries run out
) - no waiting to come on cam, or boost to kick in - assuming they use lithium polymer and the total weight doesn't creep above 950 kg or so, it'll drive like an Elise with shit-loads of low down torque. The big question, as always, is the longevity of the batteries. If they can sort that, or design some exotic financial product to offset the cost of replacement against the likely future reduced cost of said batteries (battery tech is improving exponentially, replacement cost in 12 months is likely to be a lot less than replacement cost today, so some interest rate vs. predicted tech advance swap may be possible, it'd take a brave bank though...
errr rambling there...) I'd put my money where my mouth is - I'd buy one at £30k. Full stop.
Electric power is dead in the water even now. The "green" aspect is a complete misnomer as the "emissions" will just be moved elsewhere i.e. the power stations. And if we all, within say 10 years, all change to an electric powered car, can you IMAGINE the drain on the power plants around the country? There are over 30 MILLION cars on the road and lets say there will be 15 million of them all charging at the same time (i.e. overnight)..........the grid would go into meltdown!!!
Also, the range and power capacity of the batteries is STILL lightyears off what you can get out of a petrol of similar performance. Also, and this is the big factor, the RECHARGING properties of batteries lets the whole thing down. The technology for a battery to hold a huge amount of power with a slow decay rate has been around for about 10-15 years. Cars run on that would have over 1000 miles of range and probably would run for over a week. But the recharge of this type of battery is over a DAY to do and the life of the battery is no more than 10-12 recharges. Then its done. And the cost is astronical. Unfortunately, you can't have one without the other. So, high capacity and output=short shelf life and long recharge times. Manufactures really struggle to get the balance right.
There are WAY too many negatives with electric cars. I am all for the enviromentally friendly car, even if I don't always agree that its the wholesale fault of the car that we are all going to die inhaling 100% carbon dioxide in the next 6 months, as the media would have us beleive. But electric is NOT the way forward. And technology on this is moving far too slowly for it to be of benefit to us all.......
Bring on the hydrogen cell................
Also, the range and power capacity of the batteries is STILL lightyears off what you can get out of a petrol of similar performance. Also, and this is the big factor, the RECHARGING properties of batteries lets the whole thing down. The technology for a battery to hold a huge amount of power with a slow decay rate has been around for about 10-15 years. Cars run on that would have over 1000 miles of range and probably would run for over a week. But the recharge of this type of battery is over a DAY to do and the life of the battery is no more than 10-12 recharges. Then its done. And the cost is astronical. Unfortunately, you can't have one without the other. So, high capacity and output=short shelf life and long recharge times. Manufactures really struggle to get the balance right.
There are WAY too many negatives with electric cars. I am all for the enviromentally friendly car, even if I don't always agree that its the wholesale fault of the car that we are all going to die inhaling 100% carbon dioxide in the next 6 months, as the media would have us beleive. But electric is NOT the way forward. And technology on this is moving far too slowly for it to be of benefit to us all.......
Bring on the hydrogen cell................
In the year 2525.....
Beckam Paris was driving his latest DYSON sports car down the road. So so quiet, He was pleased with the handling, and the 0 to 60 time of 2.9 seconds was really impresive, and so so quiet! As he approached the junction the car slowed automatically,(So so quietly) as it was supposed to, and the radio switched off,
Sure enough the car started to pull out in front of him....
"FU**in stop" his car retorted at 120 decibels... the car pulling out stopped instantly!!! and he carried safetly on his journey.
He smiled to himself knowing it had been 516 years since the last known traffic accident, reading in all the history books, he thought, nobody back then would have believed what had just happened... (woke up and ate cornflakes)
Beckam Paris was driving his latest DYSON sports car down the road. So so quiet, He was pleased with the handling, and the 0 to 60 time of 2.9 seconds was really impresive, and so so quiet! As he approached the junction the car slowed automatically,(So so quietly) as it was supposed to, and the radio switched off,
Sure enough the car started to pull out in front of him....
"FU**in stop" his car retorted at 120 decibels... the car pulling out stopped instantly!!! and he carried safetly on his journey.
He smiled to himself knowing it had been 516 years since the last known traffic accident, reading in all the history books, he thought, nobody back then would have believed what had just happened... (woke up and ate cornflakes)
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