Another philosophical topic: Choice
Discussion
After reading the ‘Fabric of Society’ topic and being astounded at the level of intellect here at PH, I thought I’d pose my own philosophical question that I’ve been thinking about. Before I do, I’d like to point out that I have appalling communication skills (compared to some of you), so please bear with me J If someone gets the gist of what I’m saying and can say it better, please do.
Do we have choice?
I’d have to say no, we have no choice; choice is an illusion.
I am in a situation where I can either eat an Apple or a Banana. Every memory and behaviour I have is stored as chemicals in my brain, when given this choice my brain searches back through past experiences, weighs up pros and cons and says “Eat the banana”.
If time was reversed and I was in the same situation again, I’d eat the banana, I would always eat the banana. As I eat it, I am under the impression that I have chosen, but my brain was always programmed to eat the banana in that specific situation. The day after, the hour before or a year later I maybe have eaten the apple, the point is, at that specific moment in time I will always choose the banana.
I’m trying to think what philosophy this is called; I think it’s a called Deterministic (anyone know if I’m right).
So I end up going through life believing in fate. I believe that everything that happens in the universe will always happen and cannot be changed. For instance, right now there’s a steel mill extracting some steel that will eventually end up in a bolt factory, it will eventually be made into a bolt, the bolt will eventually be put onto a car, the car will be sold to a man, he will sell it to a woman, the woman moves to the coast, the sea air corrodes the bolt and one day when she’s driving, the bolt breaks off sending her car across to the other carriage way and has a head on collision with me and I die, no more bananas for me.
The only random occurrences that happen will be on a sub atomic level.
Anyway, I’m going off from my own ‘choice’ topic here, so if I can conclude: The brain is made up of a series of chemical balances/imbalances, it will always react the same in the same situation. However the brain will learn from each situation and the chemical balances will always be changing and therefore choices will forever be changing.
Er, did any of that make sense?
Do we have choice?
I’d have to say no, we have no choice; choice is an illusion.
I am in a situation where I can either eat an Apple or a Banana. Every memory and behaviour I have is stored as chemicals in my brain, when given this choice my brain searches back through past experiences, weighs up pros and cons and says “Eat the banana”.
If time was reversed and I was in the same situation again, I’d eat the banana, I would always eat the banana. As I eat it, I am under the impression that I have chosen, but my brain was always programmed to eat the banana in that specific situation. The day after, the hour before or a year later I maybe have eaten the apple, the point is, at that specific moment in time I will always choose the banana.
I’m trying to think what philosophy this is called; I think it’s a called Deterministic (anyone know if I’m right).
So I end up going through life believing in fate. I believe that everything that happens in the universe will always happen and cannot be changed. For instance, right now there’s a steel mill extracting some steel that will eventually end up in a bolt factory, it will eventually be made into a bolt, the bolt will eventually be put onto a car, the car will be sold to a man, he will sell it to a woman, the woman moves to the coast, the sea air corrodes the bolt and one day when she’s driving, the bolt breaks off sending her car across to the other carriage way and has a head on collision with me and I die, no more bananas for me.
The only random occurrences that happen will be on a sub atomic level.
Anyway, I’m going off from my own ‘choice’ topic here, so if I can conclude: The brain is made up of a series of chemical balances/imbalances, it will always react the same in the same situation. However the brain will learn from each situation and the chemical balances will always be changing and therefore choices will forever be changing.
Er, did any of that make sense?
carzee!forever_driving said:
Do we have choice?
I’d have to say no, we have no choice; choice is an illusion.
I am in a situation where I can either eat an Apple or a Banana. Every memory and behaviour I have is stored as chemicals in my brain, when given this choice my brain searches back through past experiences, weighs up pros and cons and says “Eat the banana”.
If time was reversed and I was in the same situation again, I’d eat the banana, I would always eat the banana. As I eat it, I am under the impression that I have chosen, but my brain was always programmed to eat the banana in that specific situation. The day after, the hour before or a year later I maybe have eaten the apple, the point is, at that specific moment in time I will always choose the banana.
Yes, you do have a choice. The fact that you could eat either is a choice, or even that you might not eat either is a choice.
Choice is a stae of mind, which may be affected by external factors such as chemical dependencies.
Forever driving
errr... OK - I see where you are coming from, it’s an insurmountable argument. But in the corner of self determination, consider this:
I chose to go to a particular college – I then met a whole bunch of people that I would not have met if I’d have gone elsewhere. I then decided to move in with a woman that was on my course, who persuaded me to give up my dream of being a …. etc
You see where I’m going?
Yes of course we are probably pre-determined to choose one option and not another, but the cumulative decisions we take are affected not only by our predisposition, but by the people we meet, the place in which we reside and so on and so forth.
Thus, choice is determined not only by ones own genes but by the myriad of those one encounters.
Try plumbing that into a calculator.
I’m off to have a banana – or maybe I’ll have a Bud
GotCrater
>> Edited by getcarter on Thursday 5th February 14:40
errr... OK - I see where you are coming from, it’s an insurmountable argument. But in the corner of self determination, consider this:
I chose to go to a particular college – I then met a whole bunch of people that I would not have met if I’d have gone elsewhere. I then decided to move in with a woman that was on my course, who persuaded me to give up my dream of being a …. etc
You see where I’m going?
Yes of course we are probably pre-determined to choose one option and not another, but the cumulative decisions we take are affected not only by our predisposition, but by the people we meet, the place in which we reside and so on and so forth.
Thus, choice is determined not only by ones own genes but by the myriad of those one encounters.
Try plumbing that into a calculator.
I’m off to have a banana – or maybe I’ll have a Bud
GotCrater
>> Edited by getcarter on Thursday 5th February 14:40
Determinism is a recognised school of philosophy but its difficult to debate.
Person A: Determinism is where its at...
Person B: No its not.
Person A: Ahh, but it was predefined that you were going to say that so my argument still holds.
All a bit much for me really but its an interesting concept as there can be no argument...
Person A: Determinism is where its at...
Person B: No its not.
Person A: Ahh, but it was predefined that you were going to say that so my argument still holds.
All a bit much for me really but its an interesting concept as there can be no argument...
forever_driving said:
So I end up going through life believing in fate. I believe that everything that happens in the universe will always happen and cannot be changed. For instance, right now there’s a steel mill extracting some steel that will eventually end up in a bolt factory, it will eventually be made into a bolt, the bolt will eventually be put onto a car, the car will be sold to a man, he will sell it to a woman, the woman moves to the coast, the sea air corrodes the bolt and one day when she’s driving, the bolt breaks off sending her car across to the other carriage way and has a head on collision with me and I die, no more bananas for me.
Sounds like you'd get on just fine driving in Saudi...
I have some theories on this but they'll have to wait for a while. Sorry.
I'd like to propose that you indeed have a great deal of choice. One of my most important postulates is that you can infact choose your thoughts, choose whether to be happy or sad, depressed or elated.
Its tricky stuff, and requires some subtle shifts in terminology, definition, and yes you guessed it thinking.
more to come.
great post
best
Ex
I'd like to propose that you indeed have a great deal of choice. One of my most important postulates is that you can infact choose your thoughts, choose whether to be happy or sad, depressed or elated.
Its tricky stuff, and requires some subtle shifts in terminology, definition, and yes you guessed it thinking.
more to come.
great post
best
Ex
The choice exists, the question is whether you have "free will" to determine what choice you make.
I agree with your arguement entirely as I am a reductionist/determinist. I believe free will as most people conceive it (in some sort of fundamental sense) is an illusion.
A lot of people shy away from this conclusion because the consequence seems to be that we can't be held responsible for any decisions we make.
(a) the apparent consequences shouldn't stop us accepting the premise, and (b) the conclusion that a lack of fundamental free will removes responsibility is baloney.
Every time I smile or cry, that too is "only" a deterministic chemical process going on in my brain and body. Nonetheless the emotions are "real". I experience them, I value them. This sense of "value" is just a state in my physical body, but that is also the most fundamental level to which "value" can be attached. Reducing the system below the chemical bag that is a human, and asking "where is the fundamental source of the thing we call value" is meaningless.
"Free will" is similar. "Free will" is something that we experience. That is sufficient. It doesn't have to have some fundamental mechanism to be considered to "exist" in a meaningful and useful way.
I agree with your arguement entirely as I am a reductionist/determinist. I believe free will as most people conceive it (in some sort of fundamental sense) is an illusion.
A lot of people shy away from this conclusion because the consequence seems to be that we can't be held responsible for any decisions we make.
(a) the apparent consequences shouldn't stop us accepting the premise, and (b) the conclusion that a lack of fundamental free will removes responsibility is baloney.
Every time I smile or cry, that too is "only" a deterministic chemical process going on in my brain and body. Nonetheless the emotions are "real". I experience them, I value them. This sense of "value" is just a state in my physical body, but that is also the most fundamental level to which "value" can be attached. Reducing the system below the chemical bag that is a human, and asking "where is the fundamental source of the thing we call value" is meaningless.
"Free will" is similar. "Free will" is something that we experience. That is sufficient. It doesn't have to have some fundamental mechanism to be considered to "exist" in a meaningful and useful way.
pdV6 said:
So I end up going through life believing in fate. I believe that everything that happens in the universe will always happen and cannot be changed. For instance, right now there’s a steel mill extracting some steel that will eventually end up in a bolt factory, it will eventually be made into a bolt, the bolt will eventually be put onto a car, the car will be sold to a man, he will sell it to a woman, the woman moves to the coast, the sea air corrodes the bolt and one day when she’s driving, the bolt breaks off sending her car across to the other carriage way and has a head on collision with me and I die, no more bananas for me.
Sounds like you'd get on just fine driving in Saudi...
HaHa!
I'd live for ever!
forever_driving said:
I am in a situation where I can either eat an Apple or a Banana. Every memory and behaviour I have is stored as chemicals in my brain, when given this choice my brain searches back through past experiences, weighs up pros and cons and says “Eat the banana”.
If time was reversed and I was in the same situation again, I’d eat the banana, I would always eat the banana. As I eat it, I am under the impression that I have chosen, but my brain was always programmed to eat the banana in that specific situation. The day after, the hour before or a year later I maybe have eaten the apple, the point is, at that specific moment in time I will always choose the banana.
i don't agree.
i believe this is a fallacy caused by the fact that you are looking back in time to the event.
in other words, i believe that at that specific moment in time you had a genuine choice. One choice leads to the world where you have eaten the apple, the other to the world where you have eaten the banana. However, once you have made the choice, the other world no longer exists. You can't go back in time, un-choose one fruit and choose the other one. So looking back from here, it seems that the only choice at that point was the banana.
>> Edited by deeen on Thursday 5th February 16:01
Yes one has the potential for free-will and choice, but it requires one to dig down to the human part of oneself and bypass the instinctive-emotive-response that governs the vast majority of peoples actions in much the same way as animals.
The benchmark for acting with free-will and choice is probably recognition that one is actually trying to make a choice and recognition of the instinctive-emotive response within oneself trying to commandeer that choice-making process.
Free-will i would suggest is being able to view from the third-person's perspective one's own instinctive-emotive response and being able to unbiasedly question it and recognise that to do so unbiasedly may not be easy.
The benchmark for acting with free-will and choice is probably recognition that one is actually trying to make a choice and recognition of the instinctive-emotive response within oneself trying to commandeer that choice-making process.
Free-will i would suggest is being able to view from the third-person's perspective one's own instinctive-emotive response and being able to unbiasedly question it and recognise that to do so unbiasedly may not be easy.
I believe you are right to say that choice is an illusion. However, it's an illusion so good that it might as well be real.
First of all, you can forget trying to predict what the choice of an individual will be by analysing the starting position. As with any non-linear system, the outcome is infinitely sensitive to the starting point so you will neve be able to measure anything with enough precision to be of any use.
Given this, if the thought processes which lead to the choice made are part of the deterministic train of events, since you are unable to predict the path they will take and the ultimate outcome, it will appear that you make a free choice.
Then, you would never be able to wind back to the precise starting position to try again, the outcome would necessarily be different, even if only in detail.
It's true, the steel for the bolt which will rust and lead to your demise may already exist, but there is no way you can ever know this. Therefore, by any test you can devise, the deterministic future path will appear the same as a random or freewill driven series of events.
So don't worry about it.
First of all, you can forget trying to predict what the choice of an individual will be by analysing the starting position. As with any non-linear system, the outcome is infinitely sensitive to the starting point so you will neve be able to measure anything with enough precision to be of any use.
Given this, if the thought processes which lead to the choice made are part of the deterministic train of events, since you are unable to predict the path they will take and the ultimate outcome, it will appear that you make a free choice.
Then, you would never be able to wind back to the precise starting position to try again, the outcome would necessarily be different, even if only in detail.
It's true, the steel for the bolt which will rust and lead to your demise may already exist, but there is no way you can ever know this. Therefore, by any test you can devise, the deterministic future path will appear the same as a random or freewill driven series of events.
So don't worry about it.
forever_driving said:
I am in a situation where I can either eat an Apple or a Banana. Every memory and behaviour I have is stored as chemicals in my brain, when given this choice my brain searches back through past experiences, weighs up pros and cons and says “Eat the banana”.
If you think everything is pre-determined then there is no point doing anything.
On the other hand if you feel you have no choice it's time to watch a Batman film and learn! Carry a coin in your pocket and whenever you need to make a simple "choice" flip the coin. Decisions with more than 2 possible outcomes can similarly be addressed by carrying dice.....
CraigAlsop said:
The only random occurrences that happen will be on a sub atomic level.
But these are enough to make everything else non-deterministic, thus choice is very real...
Quantum theory is derministic. Just because outcomes can't be predicted in advance doesn't make them non-deterministic.
We always have choice, but ultimately not free will. Our choices are dictated and controlled to a certain extent by our experiences, those of our peers, and our rulers.
For example, where I come from (Malaysia), 90% of the academic teenage population only consider one of five possible choices when deciding their major and when thinking about post-graduation career choices:
1. Engineering
2. Accountancy
3. Medicine
4. Business
5. Law
Outside of these five, there is nothing. So to a certain extent they can choose, but only within these five. They have choice, but their options are governed by circumstances outside of their control and inside their ignorance, so while they have choice, they have no free will.
To some degree or another all of us are subject to the same "supression". This is really no bad thing, because it dictates order in an otherwise naturally chaotic society, and ensures that a mutually acceptable system is in place which enourages breeding, which is really the only thing we really live on this earth for.
So, in other words, we have limited choice because of our need to shag.
For example, where I come from (Malaysia), 90% of the academic teenage population only consider one of five possible choices when deciding their major and when thinking about post-graduation career choices:
1. Engineering
2. Accountancy
3. Medicine
4. Business
5. Law
Outside of these five, there is nothing. So to a certain extent they can choose, but only within these five. They have choice, but their options are governed by circumstances outside of their control and inside their ignorance, so while they have choice, they have no free will.
To some degree or another all of us are subject to the same "supression". This is really no bad thing, because it dictates order in an otherwise naturally chaotic society, and ensures that a mutually acceptable system is in place which enourages breeding, which is really the only thing we really live on this earth for.
So, in other words, we have limited choice because of our need to shag.
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