Alternatives To The 991 Turbo S??

[W8PMC]

Adam Ansel said:

The upcoming Alpina B5 will be superior to the Turbo S in many areas.
It will be a scaled down version of the new 7 series, so take a look at that for the technology, which includes part carbon fibre construction.
The B5 will be 600+ bhp and will have two full sized back seats and a large boot. It will be far more exclusive whilst at the same time being more of a "sleeper", inconspicuous and avoiding unwanted attention.
Also the B5 will be far more customisable. Alpina will make the interior pretty much to your requirements, the quality of their craftsmanship is first rate.
If it has XDrive that will be the icing on the cake.
Also, unlike an M5, it will be comfortable and so will consume vast distances for minimum effort.
A far more desirable car all round. And they haven't announced it yet!

An Alpina B5 superior to a 991 Turbo S? I'm not sure I'm even capable of working out how that's possible?

I currently have a DMS Stage 2 F10 M5 so an Alpina B5 isn't really going to offer me anything over what I have now & for it's replacement I want a true Sports Car.

[MrBarry123]

Adam Ansel said:

Alternatives To The 991 Turbo S??

The old model B5: http://www.alpina-automobiles.co.uk/en/models/b5-b...
The new 7 series that the upcoming new 5 series will be based on: http://www.bmw.co.uk/en_GB/new-vehicles/7/saloon/2...

Eh?

[Adam Ansel]

W8PMC said:

An Alpina B5 superior to a 991 Turbo S? I'm not sure I'm even capable of working out how that's possible?

I currently have a DMS Stage 2 F10 M5 so an Alpina B5 isn't really going to offer me anything over what I have now & for it's replacement I want a true Sports Car.

DMS Stage 2 F10 M5 is 748bhp & 950Nm in 1945kg
911 Turbo S is 580bhp & 700 Nm in 1675kg

So presumably you are going to DMS the Porsche, otherwise it will be a far slower car.
Have you thought of keeping the M5 and buying a Caterham for your true sports car, it is far purer than a 911?

[chriscoates81]

Adam Ansel said:

DMS Stage 2 F10 M5 is 748bhp & 950Nm in 1945kg
911 Turbo S is 580bhp & 700 Nm in 1675kg

So presumably you are going to DMS the Porsche, otherwise it will be a far slower car.
Have you thought of keeping the M5 and buying a Caterham for your true sports car, it is far purer than a 911?

Purely on power to weight, there's not much in it. Turbo is 346/ton and m5 is 384/ton.

[9e 28]

Adam Ansel said:

W8PMC said:

An Alpina B5 superior to a 991 Turbo S? I'm not sure I'm even capable of working out how that's possible?

I currently have a DMS Stage 2 F10 M5 so an Alpina B5 isn't really going to offer me anything over what I have now & for it's replacement I want a true Sports Car.

DMS Stage 2 F10 M5 is 748bhp & 950Nm in 1945kg
911 Turbo S is 580bhp & 700 Nm in 1675kg

So presumably you are going to DMS the Porsche, otherwise it will be a far slower car.
Have you thought of keeping the M5 and buying a Caterham for your true sports car, it is far purer than a 911?

DMS always overstate power its their business after all so the hype with big exagerrated bhp claims helps. Porsche always understate power hence even the gen 1 991 turbo puts out well over 600bhp on a nice cool day but it will never be less than the quoted 560bhp even in the desert.

Gen 2 991 turbo has even more power than the stated 580bhp as it now has bigger 58mm VTG turbos. Hadn't realised it had become quite so porky. Is that weight with or without fluids? A PCCB equipped 997 turbo weighs 1545kg (1585kg without PCCB) fully laden so quite surprised at the weight increase as Porsche have said for quite some time they are looking to make their cars lighter.

Any ways back to your point about a stock 991 turbo S being far slower than a DMS 750bhp equipped M5. Not true. Quite the opposite in fact even a stock 991 turbo will blow the 750 bhp BMWs doors off IMO.

Have raced these 750bhp M5 and they're quick but not as quick as a 991 turbo S in any situation on road or track.

[Adam Ansel]

9e 28 said:

DMS always overstate power its their business after all so the hype with big exagerrated bhp claims helps. Porsche always understate power hence even the gen 1 991 turbo puts out well over 600bhp on a nice cool day but it will never be less than the quoted 560bhp even in the desert.

Gen 2 991 turbo has even more power than the stated 580bhp as it now has bigger 58mm VTG turbos. Hadn't realised it had become quite so porky. Is that weight with or without fluids? A PCCB equipped 997 turbo weighs 1545kg (1585kg without PCCB) fully laden so quite surprised at the weight increase as Porsche have said for quite some time they are looking to make their cars lighter.

Any ways back to your point about a stock 991 turbo S being far slower than a DMS 750bhp equipped M5. Not true. Quite the opposite in fact even a stock 991 turbo will blow the 750 bhp BMWs doors off IMO.

Have raced these 750bhp M5 and they're quick but not as quick as a 991 turbo S in any situation on road or track.

DMS Stage 2 F10 M5 rolling road: http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/f10-m5-discussion...

[ORD]

What in the name of crack are you smoking?!

Does anybody seriously (and I mean seriously) think that it matters whether or not another car is theoretically faster than a 991 Turbo S? You would never notice unless you took it to a VMax event (like a right saddo), because the pace of the Turbo S is vastly in excess of what you can actually use.

If you are at WOT at 5,000 revs in the Turbo S and thinking "Needs more", you need help.

But it's just about pub talk anyway, isnt it? Nobody even uses WOT in these cars that they say arent fast enough.

[9e 28]

Adam Ansel said:

9e 28 said:

DMS always overstate power its their business after all so the hype with big exagerrated bhp claims helps. Porsche always understate power hence even the gen 1 991 turbo puts out well over 600bhp on a nice cool day but it will never be less than the quoted 560bhp even in the desert.

Gen 2 991 turbo has even more power than the stated 580bhp as it now has bigger 58mm VTG turbos. Hadn't realised it had become quite so porky. Is that weight with or without fluids? A PCCB equipped 997 turbo weighs 1545kg (1585kg without PCCB) fully laden so quite surprised at the weight increase as Porsche have said for quite some time they are looking to make their cars lighter.

Any ways back to your point about a stock 991 turbo S being far slower than a DMS 750bhp equipped M5. Not true. Quite the opposite in fact even a stock 991 turbo will blow the 750 bhp BMWs doors off IMO.

Have raced these 750bhp M5 and they're quick but not as quick as a 991 turbo S in any situation on road or track.

DMS Stage 2 F10 M5 rolling road: http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/f10-m5-discussion...

Yes DMS' rolling road ALWAYS overstates power sometimes by as much as 70-100bhp. Here's a 9e turbo against a "750bhp" Evolve M5. By way of comparison a 991 Turbo S faired far better.

See link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzULuxKuZ5o

[9e 28]

ORD said:

What in the name of crack are you smoking?!

Does anybody seriously (and I mean seriously) think that it matters whether or not another car is theoretically faster than a 991 Turbo S? You would never notice unless you took it to a VMax event (like a right saddo), because the pace of the Turbo S is vastly in excess of what you can actually use.

If you are at WOT at 5,000 revs in the Turbo S and thinking "Needs more", you need help.

But it's just about pub talk anyway, isnt it? Nobody even uses WOT in these cars that they say aren't fast enough.

Hahaha or a saddo who posts over 6000 times in 30 months on blogs. Quite!

[W8PMC]

Adam Ansel said:

DMS Stage 2 F10 M5 is 748bhp & 950Nm in 1945kg
911 Turbo S is 580bhp & 700 Nm in 1675kg

So presumably you are going to DMS the Porsche, otherwise it will be a far slower car.
Have you thought of keeping the M5 and buying a Caterham for your true sports car, it is far purer than a 911?

Unlikely if i go the Porsche route would it see any form of upgrades as i'd be somewhat fearful of fettling a £150k car.

Just focussing on power/weight is one thing & yes it may show the 2 cars as being close, bit on paper/drag race & on track the Turbo S would always be ahead of the M5. If nothing else the better traction would give enough of an advantage 12mths of the year. The Turbo S according to Porsche is capable of 2.6secs to 62 (every time), the M5 is never going to be able to repeat that & could only get close in perfect conditions. The other factor is one's a true Sports Car & the other a tricked up fast saloon.

[W8PMC]

9e 28 said:

Yes DMS' rolling road ALWAYS overstates power sometimes by as much as 70-100bhp. Here's a 9e turbo against a "750bhp" Evolve M5. By way of comparison a 991 Turbo S faired far better.

See link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzULuxKuZ5o

That would be a big worry if true as would mean a handful of the M5/6's that were worked on yesterday were under developing stock power by (as you state) up to 90bhp, which clearly isn't the case. Stock power's ranged from 570bhp to 620 bhp (mine last year was just under 600bhp stock). The higher mileage cars were as you'd expect developing the higher stock figures. All cars on the RR on the same day so same Operator, same RR & same conditions.

I however completely agree that although a DMS or Evolve M5 producing 750ish BHP would possibly give a Turbo S a run for its money in a distance drag race, that's pretty much where the competition would end as the Turbo S would walk away everywhere else.

[W8PMC]

9e 28 said:

Yes DMS' rolling road ALWAYS overstates power sometimes by as much as 70-100bhp. Here's a 9e turbo against a "750bhp" Evolve M5. By way of comparison a 991 Turbo S faired far better.

See link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzULuxKuZ5o

What power's your Porsche running though as i'm guessing being a 9e with Hybrid turbos (among i assume many other upgrades) it's going to be close if not more than the output of that Evolve Demo car & then factor in your much lower weight & far better traction, you'd fully expect your car to get the jump. Once on the move though it's clear in that Video that the Porsche wasn't running away from the M5. If that was the earlier of the 2 Hypermax's last year then i think the Evolve car wasn't up at 750bhp & was closer to 730, but i guess that doesn't make that much of a difference.

[9e 28]

^^^Good point re traction on M5 - even in a straight line the Evolve M5 was going side ways with wheel spin in 3rd and 4th gears.

The main problem with rolling road dynos is that they are never accurate as they're a guess based on guess - an 8 second pull on a dyno in 3rd gear is not the same as running your car to 200mph and beyond. I know of a guy who has a 997 turbo on stock turbos who sent his car to DMS for a flash, exhaust and coolers.. They quoted him having 620bhp + on their dyno last year. Now I know for a fact the best you can get with stock 997.1 VTG turbos on pump gas is 530bhp. I ran against a DMS flashed 997 turbo and left it for dead over multiple runs and its supposed to have similar power?

Re the 9e 28 every other tuner thinks we have 720bhp + when in reality with hybrid oversized VTGS we only have 640bhp.

Maybe DMS' claims for M5 are closer to reality but their claims on 997.1 turbos are certainly miles off the mark so I can only surmise from that. I also know of two guys that have DMS tuned 997.1 turbos who have required full engine rebuilds at a cost of £30k +. That doesn't mean that their tunes on BMWs or Porsches are bad as they may well be much better and maybe those 997 turbos already had engine issues before being tuned by DMS.

How about this as an alternative to a 991 turbo S.

http://www.nineexcellence.com/forsale/fm56tsu/inde...

I've been in it and its one of the quickest cars in the UK - you should maybe take it for a test drive? Costs no more to run than a 991 turbo S and blows the doors off P1, 918s and La F for fun

[Quickmoose]

This whole topic is getting further and further into semantics and subjectivity.

This new car purchase isn't about Top Trumps, pub stats or track-day 1/4 mile sprints is it?

It seems to me to be purely about how the car will make you feel, whilst ticking some arbitrary boxes surrounding practicality.... and even then if your wife has the SUV, then in theory you could go full Atom/Caterham crazy of it was all about 'pure sportscar'...

But it's not (from what I can tell) it's about brand, a bit of comfort, a lot of all year round deployment of thrust and all the sensory buttons that are pressed by engineering and quality and how a door opens and closes, the interior layout and lighting, the buttons, optional extras and engine sound... touchy feely beautifully made and even more beautifully marketed stuff that plays on whether you pointed and stared as a child...

[W8PMC]

9e 28 said:

^^^Good point re traction on M5 - even in a straight line the Evolve M5 was going side ways with wheel spin in 3rd and 4th gears.

The main problem with rolling road dynos is that they are never accurate as they're a guess based on guess - an 8 second pull on a dyno in 3rd gear is not the same as running your car to 200mph and beyond. I know of a guy who has a 997 turbo on stock turbos who sent his car to DMS for a flash, exhaust and coolers.. They quoted him having 620bhp + on their dyno last year. Now I know for a fact the best you can get with stock 997.1 VTG turbos on pump gas is 530bhp. I ran against a DMS flashed 997 turbo and left it for dead over multiple runs and its supposed to have similar power?

Re the 9e 28 every other tuner thinks we have 720bhp + when in reality with hybrid oversized VTGS we only have 640bhp.

Maybe DMS' claims for M5 are closer to reality but their claims on 997.1 turbos are certainly miles off the mark so I can only surmise from that. I also know of two guys that have DMS tuned 997.1 turbos who have required full engine rebuilds at a cost of £30k +. That doesn't mean that their tunes on BMWs or Porsches are bad as they may well be much better and maybe those 997 turbos already had engine issues before being tuned by DMS.

How about this as an alternative to a 991 turbo S.

http://www.nineexcellence.com/forsale/fm56tsu/inde...

I've been in it and its one of the quickest cars in the UK - you should maybe take it for a test drive? Costs no more to run than a 991 turbo S and blows the doors off P1, 918s and La F for fun

Whilst a little off topic i do agree that any dyno headline figures should be read as an indicator rather than an exact output, i am however confident that any gains quoted are genuine as the before/after are all carried out at the same time (well an hour apart) on the same equipment so assuming the stock figures are accurate then the uplift delta which is the crucial reference point will also be close to the mark. I of course can't comment on cars i don't know, but DMS have tuned a significant number of 996/997/991 Turbos & i've never heard mention of any failures. They also work on a significant number of McLaren's, Porsche Cup Cars & the UGR Lambos so i'm confident they offer a quality product with a strong warranty. I've had 4 cars worked on by them with no issues whatsoever.

My F10 M5 was just shy of 600bhp stock, this rose to 691bhp with their Stage 1 tune & 748 with the stage 2. At each point the difference was significant purely from a driving perspective, regardless of the dyno plots. The feedback from the 6 M5/6's that were tuned yesterday is further testament that the gains presented are indeed correct even if the headline figures are taken as an indicator rather than gospel.

That 9e does look tempting & over 10years of VMAX i've been in awe of the quality of the 9e cars as they themselves have up until recently held numerous of the records at these events. When i'm there again in Sept i don't expect my M5 to be worrying the tuned Pork but i'm sure it will surprise many, as the Evolve car/s did last year. My highest speed at VMAX was in a 640bhp R35 GT-R a few years back & this i believe was matched by the Evolve car last year & we all now how blisteringly quick & capable the GT-R is as a drag weapon.

[W8PMC]

Quickmoose said:

This whole topic is getting further and further into semantics and subjectivity.

This new car purchase isn't about Top Trumps, pub stats or track-day 1/4 mile sprints is it?

It seems to me to be purely about how the car will make you feel, whilst ticking some arbitrary boxes surrounding practicality.... and even then if your wife has the SUV, then in theory you could go full Atom/Caterham crazy of it was all about 'pure sportscar'...

But it's not (from what I can tell) it's about brand, a bit of comfort, a lot of all year round deployment of thrust and all the sensory buttons that are pressed by engineering and quality and how a door opens and closes, the interior layout and lighting, the buttons, optional extras and engine sound... touchy feely beautifully made and even more beautifully marketed stuff that plays on whether you pointed and stared as a child...

Absolutely correct. I'm not sure where it derailed a little but i think someone made reference that my current car would be faster than it's possible replacement which as we all know is highly unlikely without a lot of luck & the very best of conditions.

[Quickmoose]

W8PMC said:

Absolutely correct. I'm not sure where it derailed a little but i think someone made reference that my current car would be faster than it's possible replacement which as we all know is highly unlikely without a lot of luck & the very best of conditions.

..and so what it if is right? in a straight line when the stars align.
The feeling IMO should outweigh the numbers.
Which is why a Caterham or MX5 get so much appreciation.
and as said you're wanting to add some additional stuff to the attributes they have... which makes a your choice inherently different from a well tuned autobahn cruiser.

For me it remains:
DBS, VantageV12, FF, TurboS
(although I have lot of love for the LHD Corvette.)

[9e 28]

W8PMC said:

9e 28 said:

^^^Good point re traction on M5 - even in a straight line the Evolve M5 was going side ways with wheel spin in 3rd and 4th gears.

The main problem with rolling road dynos is that they are never accurate as they're a guess based on guess - an 8 second pull on a dyno in 3rd gear is not the same as running your car to 200mph and beyond. I know of a guy who has a 997 turbo on stock turbos who sent his car to DMS for a flash, exhaust and coolers.. They quoted him having 620bhp + on their dyno last year. Now I know for a fact the best you can get with stock 997.1 VTG turbos on pump gas is 530bhp. I ran against a DMS flashed 997 turbo and left it for dead over multiple runs and its supposed to have similar power?

Re the 9e 28 every other tuner thinks we have 720bhp + when in reality with hybrid oversized VTGS we only have 640bhp.

Maybe DMS' claims for M5 are closer to reality but their claims on 997.1 turbos are certainly miles off the mark so I can only surmise from that. I also know of two guys that have DMS tuned 997.1 turbos who have required full engine rebuilds at a cost of £30k +. That doesn't mean that their tunes on BMWs or Porsches are bad as they may well be much better and maybe those 997 turbos already had engine issues before being tuned by DMS.

How about this as an alternative to a 991 turbo S.

http://www.nineexcellence.com/forsale/fm56tsu/inde...

I've been in it and its one of the quickest cars in the UK - you should maybe take it for a test drive? Costs no more to run than a 991 turbo S and blows the doors off P1, 918s and La F for fun

Whilst a little off topic i do agree that any dyno headline figures should be read as an indicator rather than an exact output, i am however confident that any gains quoted are genuine as the before/after are all carried out at the same time (well an hour apart) on the same equipment so assuming the stock figures are accurate then the uplift delta which is the crucial reference point will also be close to the mark. I of course can't comment on cars i don't know, but DMS have tuned a significant number of 996/997/991 Turbos & i've never heard mention of any failures. They also work on a significant number of McLaren's, Porsche Cup Cars & the UGR Lambos so i'm confident they offer a quality product with a strong warranty. I've had 4 cars worked on by them with no issues whatsoever.

My F10 M5 was just shy of 600bhp stock, this rose to 691bhp with their Stage 1 tune & 748 with the stage 2. At each point the difference was significant purely from a driving perspective, regardless of the dyno plots. The feedback from the 6 M5/6's that were tuned yesterday is further testament that the gains presented are indeed correct even if the headline figures are taken as an indicator rather than gospel.

That 9e does look tempting & over 10years of VMAX i've been in awe of the quality of the 9e cars as they themselves have up until recently held numerous of the records at these events. When i'm there again in Sept i don't expect my M5 to be worrying the tuned Pork but i'm sure it will surprise many, as the Evolve car/s did last year. My highest speed at VMAX was in a 640bhp R35 GT-R a few years back & this i believe was matched by the Evolve car last year & we all now how blisteringly quick & capable the GT-R is as a drag weapon.

That 9e has cost well over £150k to build not inc the new price of the donor car £100k. If its still for sale I think there's maybe an amazingly good deal to be had. Doubt it will depreciate much either as its a one off. Pussy cat off boost but my God when its afterburners light up its like take off in fighter jet! As I said maybe DMS on BMWS are spot on but VTG turbos on 997 and 991 are a nightmare to tune for any tuner inc 9e let alone DMS.

I still think you cannot go wrong with a 991 turbo S. Unbeatable allrounder.

[OldBob]

9e 28 said:

snip

Gen 2 991 turbo has even more power than the stated 580bhp as it now has bigger 58mm VTG turbos. Hadn't realised it had become quite so porky. Is that weight with or without fluids? A PCCB equipped 997 turbo weighs 1545kg (1585kg without PCCB) fully laden so quite surprised at the weight increase as Porsche have said for quite some time they are looking to make their cars lighter.

snip

Worth comparing DIN weights as frequently people mix comparisons of DIN and EU.
DIN weights IIRC are 991.2 turbo S is 1600Kg and 997.2 was 1585Kg


...and you get a further 15Kg+ reduction on the 991.2 speccing Carbon Bucket seats

Edited by OldBob on Friday 4th March 12:17

[OldBob]

ORD said:

What in the name of crack are you smoking?!

..

Haha I get what you mean.

ORD said:

If you are at WOT at 5,000 revs in the Turbo S and thinking "Needs more", you need help.

Half way up Hanger Straight this is exactly what I'd be thinking to offset the fact that the help I need is to handle the corners better

ORD said:

But it's just about pub talk anyway, isnt it? Nobody even uses WOT in these cars that they say arent fast enough.

Hmm, you're pretty much doing this at or soon after most apexes actually and if it can put it down you always want more! ask those who periodically just have to up their tune stages.

Actually come to think of it also when exiting a roundabout onto a good Dual C wanting to humiliate the superbike up your jacksy too.

Edited by OldBob on Friday 4th March 12:55