Discussion
I don’t see the reason for such a big disparity, but it’s clearly closing. Last three Touring’s I know of selling were done for increasing amounts over 200 up to 220. On the flip side, I’ve been offered two R’s this week at 345 and 355. And yes, one of the Touring trades was me buying, but as I have no plans to sell am hardly trying to ramp the market for my own cars
isaldiri said:
JulierPass said:
The UK R prices don't make sense to me. I have recently been car shopping, and on the rounds, I came across a well-specced delivery milage German delivered R in GT silver that I could of had for 235,000 euros. I bought a 997 RS 4.0 instead as it looked a much better buy when compared to the R. The UK car prices need to be £300K max in my opinion. I feel for those that paid 400K plus for one, Porsche royally shafted them by launching the touring 
You got a 4.0 for less than €235k which was the price you could have bought a R? Really?Well I don't think Porsche screwed the loons who bought cars at £400k. They took a chance and paid the flipper prices - it didn't work out as it wasn't the last <insert the blank>. Tough.
I said I bought a 4.0 instead, which I paid more for. The 4.0 has settled in price, the R hasn't. We have yet to see what effect the touring really has on it. If you bought an R at list you are fine. If you bought in at overs you are in trouble in my opinion.JulierPass said:
I didn't say I got a 4.0 for 235k If you bought an R at list you are fine. If you bought in at overs you are in trouble in my opinion.
Yep,I would agree with that. I know to a few that brought Rs at late 400ks and early 500ks as long term cars for collection's. So they have no intention in selling. The R pays homage to the car that started all the DNA of the RS range. Its a proper Ltd build bespoke parts car and wont be made again. If you bought an R at list you are fine. If you bought in at overs you are in trouble in my opinion.Whist the GT3 touring on paper looks similar to the R they do have very different driving character's. Both great driving cars in there own ways.
Personally I don't think the market quite understands the R at the moment and its going to need a while longer to find its feet. The 991R reminds me lot like the 997 40RS when that first came out, they were on here in RHD at 185k collecting dust. Then the market woke up and it pushed to 500k.
isaldiri said:
JulierPass said:
I didn't say I got a 4.0 for 235k I said I bought a 4.0 instead, which I paid more for..
Darn, I was just going to jump.on mobile.de to find a spare for mine so I can properly mod one up without any cares!!! I said I bought a 4.0 instead, which I paid more for..
I bought the Touring from Lovetts in carmine red a couple of weeks ago. Been too busy to collect it so far but will take delivery this week. I paid very slightly over £200k and I'm delighted with the purchase. I never normally pay overs but I happen to think this a very special car and two of my dearest friends have them and love them which was good enough for me.
I've been all around the supercar block lately but now have 3 Porsches in carmine red pretty much by fluke...
I've been all around the supercar block lately but now have 3 Porsches in carmine red pretty much by fluke...
JulierPass said:
Isaldiri, If you can you must! I fully intend to use mine. It's off to Parr for some choice driver focused upgrades then off to the 'Ring to be enjoyed exactly as intended
Good man 
I already had mine mildly tweaked (guards diff and dsc control module). Just that I keep on being half tempted to stick in some proper suspension upgrades (tractive) to try to make the car as good as it can be (nevermind the driver is useless 
...)gunner said:
I bought the Touring from Lovetts in carmine red a couple of weeks ago. Been too busy to collect it so far but will take delivery this week. I paid very slightly over £200k and I'm delighted with the purchase. I never normally pay overs but I happen to think this a very special car and two of my dearest friends have them and love them which was good enough for me.
I've been all around the supercar block lately but now have 3 Porsches in carmine red pretty much by fluke...
Nice motor, well done mate.I've been all around the supercar block lately but now have 3 Porsches in carmine red pretty much by fluke...
Don’t agree that the “R” has the same pedigree as the 4.0. The latter is the last incarnation of the 997 GT3 RS and was made with an attention to detail unheard of previously and without considering the economics that this implied. It was the last iteration of the Mezger engine with genuine racing heritage. Whilst the “R” is a great car, Porsche tested the market for a manual GT3 car compromising on Ring times in return for driver involvement. The market took the bait and Porsche followed on with an unlimited run of the GT3 Touring manual. All great cars but different stories alltogether.
hornbaek said:
Don’t agree that the “R” has the same pedigree as the 4.0. The latter is the last incarnation of the 997 GT3 RS and was made with an attention to detail unheard of previously and without considering the economics that this implied. It was the last iteration of the Mezger engine with genuine racing heritage. Whilst the “R” is a great car, Porsche tested the market for a manual GT3 car compromising on Ring times in return for driver involvement. The market took the bait and Porsche followed on with an unlimited run of the GT3 Touring manual. All great cars but different stories alltogether.
+1I don't think any modern water-cooled 911 comes close enough to the 997 4.0RS for specialness and desirability, yet. The R is a fantastic car and I'm sure it has a unique character to it's drive but apart from a numbered plaque and some very clever marketing it isn't as special as 600 examples of a 3.8 RS taken to 4.0 and widely publicised as the greatest version of the greatest modern 911. I think in 10 years time you'll be able to buy 2or3 Rs for every 997 4.0RS.
hornbaek said:
Don’t agree that the “R” has the same pedigree as the 4.0. The latter is the last incarnation of the 997 GT3 RS and was made with an attention to detail unheard of previously and without considering the economics that this implied. It was the last iteration of the Mezger engine with genuine racing heritage. Whilst the “R” is a great car, Porsche tested the market for a manual GT3 car compromising on Ring times in return for driver involvement. The market took the bait and Porsche followed on with an unlimited run of the GT3 Touring manual. All great cars but different stories alltogether.
I agree with all what you say. But my point was that from a value prospective it took time for the market to actually appreciate what the 997 4.0 RS was about. This is imv about were we are with the R at present. As in the 991 range is about to end. Who knows if the NAs will be able to meet the 2021 Cap 6 D emission targets. I would also take a 997 40 RS over an R all day long for the reasons you have stated. Even though Car Mag? rated it as the best Porsche of the past 70 years. I agree the R seems a poor car now with that older engine, zero appeal for me anything with that engine.
The T feels odd due to zero front end downforce etc and a so called different ecu map ! Dumbed down maybe ? They say it has less drag but is slower, must have more drag but less downforce with that ugly pop up wing thing. I still think a very odd choice to own a T over a real GT3, should not carry the GT3 name imo. GT3 was designed to be a race car for the road !
Nice car should have had its own name though, it’s not a GT car.
The king was the 997.2 4.0 RS what a dream car.
The new 991.2 though offers the same down force with less drag and one of the best engines available today although I would like a f12 TDF :-) or that engine at least , wow..
But yes a dream garage has to have a 997.2 4.0 RS in it.
Although for the money I would rather a 997.2 3.8 with a 4.1 engine build and some trick shocks, diff, seats, brakes, wheels etc :-)
That’s when money means nothing and driving means every thing over Collectors cars.
£500k for a rhd RS 4.0. Or or £300k to build the perfect 997 GT3 ? Collectors car over drivers car !
For £130k the new manual GT3 has no equals imo it’s very special, but I could easy spend £50k on it, binning seats, wheels, brakes and shocks. You can see where they cut corners to make it £130k .....I guess that’s why Porsche bought Manthey so people can tune oem style now... but as the market is about values, it not common in the UK.
The T feels odd due to zero front end downforce etc and a so called different ecu map ! Dumbed down maybe ? They say it has less drag but is slower, must have more drag but less downforce with that ugly pop up wing thing. I still think a very odd choice to own a T over a real GT3, should not carry the GT3 name imo. GT3 was designed to be a race car for the road !
Nice car should have had its own name though, it’s not a GT car.
The king was the 997.2 4.0 RS what a dream car.
The new 991.2 though offers the same down force with less drag and one of the best engines available today although I would like a f12 TDF :-) or that engine at least , wow..
But yes a dream garage has to have a 997.2 4.0 RS in it.
Although for the money I would rather a 997.2 3.8 with a 4.1 engine build and some trick shocks, diff, seats, brakes, wheels etc :-)
That’s when money means nothing and driving means every thing over Collectors cars.
£500k for a rhd RS 4.0. Or or £300k to build the perfect 997 GT3 ? Collectors car over drivers car !
For £130k the new manual GT3 has no equals imo it’s very special, but I could easy spend £50k on it, binning seats, wheels, brakes and shocks. You can see where they cut corners to make it £130k .....I guess that’s why Porsche bought Manthey so people can tune oem style now... but as the market is about values, it not common in the UK.
Porsche911R said:
For £130k the new manual GT3 has no equals imo it’s very special, but I could easy spend £50k on it, binning seats, wheels, brakes and shocks. You can see where they cut corners to make it £130k .....I guess that’s why Porsche bought Manthey so people can tune oem style now... but as the market is about values, it not common in the UK.
I cant see how you could spend £50k on a manual 991.2 GT3 to make it a better drivers car. Clubsport spec gets you 99% of the way there. Tuning to make the car go faster and handle better (In My Opinion) should be carried out when the owner has intimate knowledge of the vehicle and is now finding that certain handling characteristics are impacting on their enjoyment and/or making them slower round a given track, in which case they need to look at improving their driving skills first before spending money on the car.
v8ksn said:
I cant see how you could spend £50k on a manual 991.2 GT3 to make it a better drivers car. Clubsport spec gets you 99% of the way there.
Tuning to make the car go faster and handle better (In My Opinion) should be carried out when the owner has intimate knowledge of the vehicle and is now finding that certain handling characteristics are impacting on their enjoyment and/or making them slower round a given track, in which case they need to look at improving their driving skills first before spending money on the car.
I am coming round to take your Ohlins off next week ;-) Tuning to make the car go faster and handle better (In My Opinion) should be carried out when the owner has intimate knowledge of the vehicle and is now finding that certain handling characteristics are impacting on their enjoyment and/or making them slower round a given track, in which case they need to look at improving their driving skills first before spending money on the car.
Porsche911R said:
v8ksn said:
I cant see how you could spend £50k on a manual 991.2 GT3 to make it a better drivers car. Clubsport spec gets you 99% of the way there.
Tuning to make the car go faster and handle better (In My Opinion) should be carried out when the owner has intimate knowledge of the vehicle and is now finding that certain handling characteristics are impacting on their enjoyment and/or making them slower round a given track, in which case they need to look at improving their driving skills first before spending money on the car.
I am coming round to take your Ohlins off next week ;-) Tuning to make the car go faster and handle better (In My Opinion) should be carried out when the owner has intimate knowledge of the vehicle and is now finding that certain handling characteristics are impacting on their enjoyment and/or making them slower round a given track, in which case they need to look at improving their driving skills first before spending money on the car.
v8ksn said:
Tuning to make the car go faster and handle better (In My Opinion) should be carried out when the owner has intimate knowledge of the vehicle and is now finding that certain handling characteristics are impacting on their enjoyment and/or making them slower round a given track, in which case they need to look at improving their driving skills first before spending money on the car.
I'm a bit conflicted on this. On one hand I very much agree on spending the cash on instruction first. On the other though, there's an element of wanting the get a car as good as it can be/or you can get it.....isaldiri said:
v8ksn said:
Tuning to make the car go faster and handle better (In My Opinion) should be carried out when the owner has intimate knowledge of the vehicle and is now finding that certain handling characteristics are impacting on their enjoyment and/or making them slower round a given track, in which case they need to look at improving their driving skills first before spending money on the car.
I'm a bit conflicted on this. On one hand I very much agree on spending the cash on instruction first. On the other though, there's an element of wanting the get a car as good as it can be/or you can get it.....Porsche911R said:
The T feels odd due to zero front end downforce etc and a so called different ecu map ! Dumbed down maybe ? They say it has less drag but is slower, must have more drag but less downforce with that ugly pop up wing thing. I still think a very odd choice to own a T over a real GT3, should not carry the GT3 name imo. GT3 was designed to be a race car for the road !
Nice car should have had its own name though, it’s not a GT car.
Although for the money I would rather a 997.2 3.8 with a 4.1 engine build and some trick shocks, diff, seats, brakes, wheels etc :-)
For £130k the new manual GT3 has no equals imo it’s very special, but I could easy spend £50k on it, binning seats, wheels, brakes and shocks. You can see where they cut corners to make it £130k .....I guess that’s why Porsche bought Manthey so people can tune oem style now... but as the market is about values, it not common in the UK.
Let's start.Nice car should have had its own name though, it’s not a GT car.
Although for the money I would rather a 997.2 3.8 with a 4.1 engine build and some trick shocks, diff, seats, brakes, wheels etc :-)
For £130k the new manual GT3 has no equals imo it’s very special, but I could easy spend £50k on it, binning seats, wheels, brakes and shocks. You can see where they cut corners to make it £130k .....I guess that’s why Porsche bought Manthey so people can tune oem style now... but as the market is about values, it not common in the UK.
Touring as as much front end downforce as the gt3.
The Touring pack makes less power because it doesn't have ram air, not that hard to figure out, and obviously the ecu mapping is different.
That pop up wing does not give as much drag as a spoiler.
It carries the gt3 name because it is a gt3, with a pack that people wanted. Don't buy one if you don't like. Same thing could be said about people who get a gt3 pdk vs an rs.
The touring is as a GT car as they come lol, or did you forget the meaning behind GT?
Try to look at the gt3 line like this: gt3 touring for street, gt3 for an ocasional trackday, gt3 rs for those on the verge of becoming track rats, gt3 cup for those who 'go full retard'.
Agree with everything else. To me a track prep on a 991.2 gt3 manual would be spot on for life. Or a 997 rs with the bits and bobs. The new 991.2 doesn't really need suspension upgrade, it always helps, but unless you hit a time wall or it provides you with some 'moments' no real need. But I can see a monster of a car out of a light spec, set of headers, tractive suspension, fi-r and trofeo r.
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