sporttechnischer leitfaden

[Harris_I]

fioran0 said:

TBH, there comes a point where one must surely just think whats the point and go elsewhere right. If you need to spend a whole heap of money and clamp a bunch of macgyver type stuff to your back bumper just to drive in circles is it really worth it. Does one truly need to go through an A-team type montage as part of their track day prep?

You've articulated what I've been feeling for a long time. Remember my woes over getting my car IVA'd on entry to the UK? (the bazooka on the back that cost me £300 and was a one-use item never to be reused). At Goodwood last year I ended up lifting off every time I went past the pit entry. What exactly is the point of going to a track day if you have to ease off?

At the risk of being an obnoxious whiny former expat returning to Blighty only to bh and moan at his truly first world problems, but I used to be at the track almost every week and never give a second thought to noise. Every year, the 24 hour race would come to town and residents would write in to the local rag to complain only to get (rightly) shot down by everyone else for choosing to locate themselves next to a fricking race track!

[jsb]

I have a bog standard c2s 997.1 and as noise tested at Goodwood in August and blew 102..........I returned in December and blew 89.......only difference is clutch pedal in and out......saw it on a forum somewhere but appears to have worked.......anyone with same experience or is the testing method just not that consistent?

[Harris_I]

The scale is logarithmic so whilst the clutch pedal will make a difference, it shouldn't be that much (and I have the chattering RS flywheel so the difference should be a lot more than non-RS).

To be fair to Goodwood, they were very good about it, recognizing the peculiarities of testing a 911 from 0.5 metres away from the source of both exhaust and induction noise, and checking to see I had depressed the clutch for the static test. They seemed to have an unwritten rule 'knock off a couple of decibels because it's a 911', though don't quote me on that. They were also good enough to give me a friendly tap to let me know I was bothering the noise meter on full chat.

I guess I will also look into a bolt-on solution. Neil's Supertrapps seem fiddly for a moron like me, so I'll have a closer look at the Decibel Devils or the Merlin muffler.

[fioran0]

I was going to try and post something interesting, but I am on the wrong computer for photos so will lazily just add these instead.
Following on from some stuff earlier, some of you might be interested to hear that the motorsport cars have quite a few shell differences compared to the regular street cars. Most of it is rather dull but something that is at least able to be easily shown is the rear wheel tubs.
The street cars all run the same rear wheel tubs, which drop down and cut across inside the car taking out a significant area of wheel well volume. This limits the size of rear rubber that can be used and the ride height that can be run if you dont want to just shred your tyres.
The motorsport cars have a completely different wheel tub. It has changed some over the years but it essentially carries the tub right over to the inside wall. This lets them run big profile rear rubber (needed for heat management and traction etc) and low ride heights.

Anyways, heres a few pics to sort of show whats going on with the tubs. These arent from my car, the street ones are just a web grab from a stripped 996 GT3, the third is from an RSR.
You are looking at the rear inner wheel tubs to see the difference, specifically at the area between the rear shock mounting and the rear 1/4 window (behind the vertical plate for the seat/seatbelt/interior trim). The second, where the foam is lets you see just how much volume is really missing on the street cars. As you can see, the RSR has a bunch of space.

Edited by fioran0 on Sunday 12th January 13:56

[fioran0]

Harris_I said:

You've articulated what I've been feeling for a long time. Remember my woes over getting my car IVA'd on entry to the UK? (the bazooka on the back that cost me £300 and was a one-use item never to be reused). At Goodwood last year I ended up lifting off every time I went past the pit entry. What exactly is the point of going to a track day if you have to ease off?

At the risk of being an obnoxious whiny former expat returning to Blighty only to bh and moan at his truly first world problems, but I used to be at the track almost every week and never give a second thought to noise. Every year, the 24 hour race would come to town and residents would write in to the local rag to complain only to get (rightly) shot down by everyone else for choosing to locate themselves next to a fricking race track!

I hear you, its hard to not just moan about how its better elsewhere. It can always be a lot worse but is that enough to just be thankful for.
I dont get what the UK obsession with static testing is. Those of you who track on the continent, do they static test you there too or just have track side monitoring stations?
Its a ludicrous concept, given that no one is car park racing. Trackside noise policing is much more useful (in terms of assessing noise impact) and lets cars have a chance. Even something that initially seems quite low, ie 95db will see GT3s pass when its measured trackside without breaking too much sweat.

[fioran0]

Random setup post time.
Steve, Graeme, Others..... whats your thoughts or what runs have you had with these cars set up to be a "slow hands" drive rather than a "fast hands" one?
I was having a conversation the other day about this with a few people, some who run across a few platforms in racing and thought it might make an interesting discussion.

The common setup on the porsches is always for fast hands. I guess it has been the dominant fashion in GT racing over the last 15 years or so, certainly in Europe. The factory develops the cars along this path and cars that need to be used by more than one driver always end up this way to ensure they fit with everyone. As a result "fast hands" is all you ever drive but Ive played somewhat with coming the other way and always thought it was actually quite nice. I know a few others have done some real experimenting and been really fast with it and plenty more others more who much prefer the drive that comes out even if they dont run that setup style regularly for many reasons.

All that being said, every Cup I have had has still been setup in the traditional manner so go figure. Obviously the massive spring rates make any moment a fast hands one in one of these cars, theres grip and then theres none and little in between but if you pick a random race cam from a Cup or R/RSR the chances are that the wheel is getting a decent work out even when the cars not having a moment.
It would be tempting of course to suggest that the short race format lends itself to this but endurance racing is the same. Interestingly, if you look at a cam from say a C6R, where theres no european input in terms of line up etc the cabin is serene by comparison. Its a different platform sure, but its interesting to watch the difference none the less.

You got any thoughts?

[Steve Rance]

Oddly I don't tend to make that many hand corrections until towards the end of a race - stint when the tyres are shot. Most of my trimming is footwork. I find cars that have a manthey set up too pointy but in my experience this is more to do with what is taken from the front rather than added to the rear in terms of set up. On saying that this is geo and not a spring shock platform issue.

Interestingly, I drove a 996 cup with a 'soft hands' - as you would call it - set up in a 24 hour race and it was a very easy car to drive but I felt that the platform set up transfered more emphasis on performance to the tyres which - as a result - lost life earlier. A driving style change was necessary to make the car work better. Was it a better car for it? Not sure. In terms of sprint place it wasn't a fast car - think it qualified 28th or something like that. Race pace was ok though and we ended up 3rd over all for much of the race before the clutch went. Longer stints ( 4 hour ) were a lot easier with this platform

Interesting question

[Harris_I]

I can't profess to know anything on setup but FWIW, I used to run a Cup in one hour races with 2 drivers. In the early races, my partner would complain that the tyres had degraded too much at handover and he spent much of his half hour stint sawing at the wheel. This was in very high ambient temperatures so managing tyres was a high priority.

In the end we went for a compromised set up which would allow us to stay in contention for the first half hour - as a result I focused on a cerebral smooth style rather than balls out qualifying pace and that gave my partner something to work with when I handed over.

[JarmoL]

fioran0 said:

I hear you, its hard to not just moan about how its better elsewhere. It can always be a lot worse but is that enough to just be thankful for.
I dont get what the UK obsession with static testing is. Those of you who track on the continent, do they static test you there too or just have track side monitoring stations?
Its a ludicrous concept, given that no one is car park racing. Trackside noise policing is much more useful (in terms of assessing noise impact) and lets cars have a chance. Even something that initially seems quite low, ie 95db will see GT3s pass when its measured trackside without breaking too much sweat.

In Finland we have both the static test and also track side monitoring.(95db limit) Static test is rather pointless for the reasons you stated earlier.

At Spa there was supposed to be static test as well but they didn't bother and everyone got on driving. No problems with trackside monitoring, the limit was 103db. That was 2012 though.

[graemel]

It's not something I have really thought about. My time in a 996 Cup was fairly limited. It was not running adjustable dampers by design. In truth more to do with preventing the guy who's car it was constantly fiddling about with it and getting nowhere. With this setup it felt fairly soft.
After a couple of races we got the RSR style blades which did improve upon things. Mike Jordan spent half a day at Silverstone setting the car up with the new arb's and I went up in the afternoon to do a few laps in it and get acquainted. You could take bridge flat which I thought was impressive. A couple of years later I found out it was running a standard road car ratio gearbox. Don't ask me why.
In truth I guess I have never had the chance to compare a fast hands or slow hands setup. I've always been fairly good at driving around a cars short comings. The first time I drove a 996 Cup was at Silverstone on the National. Being used to the old air cooled stuff it took a bit of re learning. But once I got my head around the different driving style it was ok.
Mike is a very clever guy and would wander around the circuit watching the car through every corner. There was no lap timer or pit board timing throughout the entire day. All seat of the pants stuff. The last session that I was given for that day was on very tired slicks. I was half a second of Mike's qualifying time for the Bill Taylor race two weeks previous in similar conditions. Unbeknown to me this was effectively me qualifying as to whether or not I would be going to Daytona.

[Steve Rance]

graemel said:

It's not something I have really thought about. My time in a 996 Cup was fairly limited. It was not running adjustable dampers by design. In truth more to do with preventing the guy who's car it was constantly fiddling about with it and getting nowhere. With this setup it felt fairly soft.
After a couple of races we got the RSR style blades which did improve upon things. Mike Jordan spent half a day at Silverstone setting the car up with the new arb's and I went up in the afternoon to do a few laps in it and get acquainted. You could take bridge flat which I thought was impressive. A couple of years later I found out it was running a standard road car ratio gearbox. Don't ask me why.
In truth I guess I have never had the chance to compare a fast hands or slow hands setup. I've always been fairly good at driving around a cars short comings. The first time I drove a 996 Cup was at Silverstone on the National. Being used to the old air cooled stuff it took a bit of re learning. But once I got my head around the different driving style it was ok.
Mike is a very clever guy and would wander around the circuit watching the car through every corner. There was no lap timer or pit board timing throughout the entire day. All seat of the pants stuff. The last session that I was given for that day was on very tired slicks. I was half a second of Mike's qualifying time for the Bill Taylor race two weeks previous in similar conditions. Unbeknown to me this was effectively me qualifying as to whether or not I would be going to Daytona.

This is all very well Graeme but where's the substance to this thread. Did your car have white stitching and pink calipers or perhaps blue stitching with red?

[graemel]

Steve Rance said:

This is all very well Graeme but where's the substance to this thread. Did your car have white stitching and pink calipers or perhaps blue stitching with red?

Brilliant Steve.
No it didn't or at least I did not notice.
It did have a steering wheel that looked like it came off of a bus as my compadre was an ex hot rod racer. As a mate explained, they used to sit real close up on their over sized steering wheels. It made perfect sense but by definition of size requires a lot more steering input. I longed for one of those F1 looking mini steering wheels. I did try and have a deal with him. I'll pay for the steering wheel if you pay for the sequential gearbox. We did argue about fitting an ashtray in the car and I used to tape cigarettes to the dash top just to annoy him

[Harris_I]

But didn't Ayrton Senna specify the largest possible steering wheel in his cockpit (so as to reduce the sensitivity of input to response)?

There seems to be a trend these days in favour of small wheels with thick rims - meaning overly darty responses and less sensitivity. On the days I jump from a modern car into my integrale, it amazes me how manufacturers got it so right a couple of decades ago but since then seem to have been dictated to by marketing departments instead.

Sorry for the aside, but this is a great thread!

[fioran0]

Steve Rance said:

Oddly I don't tend to make that many hand corrections until towards the end of a race - stint when the tyres are shot. Most of my trimming is footwork. I find cars that have a manthey set up too pointy but in my experience this is more to do with what is taken from the front rather than added to the rear in terms of set up. On saying that this is geo and not a spring shock platform issue.

Interestingly, I drove a 996 cup with a 'soft hands' - as you would call it - set up in a 24 hour race and it was a very easy car to drive but I felt that the platform set up transfered more emphasis on performance to the tyres which - as a result - lost life earlier. A driving style change was necessary to make the car work better. Was it a better car for it? Not sure. In terms of sprint place it wasn't a fast car - think it qualified 28th or something like that. Race pace was ok though and we ended up 3rd over all for much of the race before the clutch went. Longer stints ( 4 hour ) were a lot easier with this platform

Interesting question

And interesting response Steve, thanks.
Some of what you say echos exactly my experiences exactly while the rest is exactly in the area where I still have questions (tyres v performance) and was going with this whole post in the first place.
A "soft hands" leaves the car more able to sit continuously at the edge of tyre adhesion for the stint rather than yo-yoing back and forth over it for the duration as is normal. It SHOULD make the life better but as you know, should and do are not the same thing by any stretch. If it were everything would be nice and easy.
Its very interesting that you felt it lost something sooner in terms of quali but race pace was good across an endurance distance. How much this approach gives up over a shorter race where you want to just hit the tyres as hard as you can over the 30 min duration is the biggest question I had outstanding.
It will certainly make it a smoother drive, and less fatiguing on the driver both mentally and physically, again pluses for a long race but less so on short runs.

Do you think your adapting of driving style would have resulted in your closing the short run pace short fall a second time out armed with this knowledge or do you still think it would not have been there? Were the reactions on the car were just dulled that little that there was no scope to hussle it around when trying for a 100% pace like you can when its a frenzy inside?

If anyone is reading this, I hope they picked up on your footwork comment. I know we have talked before about how these cars are driven from the rear, not by the wheel but its such an important point. In that respect, the diff is so important to things. Thats the one thing you notice if you take a run with a pro level driver, they are hitting it so hard its simply not real.
The later cars (2005 on) have such a big diff that the car is almost un-turnable in tight corners unless you rotate from the rear. Yanking the steering wheel wont help you out with this.
Even on the street cars with their less manly diff the principles still apply. The car is faster and better if you set it to understeer and rotate with the diff/throttle. Tough to learn though.

Thats v interesting ref the Manthey setup if they are taking out of the front. My opinion is that you want to add as much to the rear as you can in terms of grip anyways but that this is especially true if you are going towards a soft hands setup. The front almost takes care of itself (within reason of course). Interestingly I have never found a car quicker adding a more front tyre (with a view to gaining grip here), but adding rear width always makes it faster. It doesnt matter if theres no corresponding front increase. Of course if you can do both then things are better still

[fioran0]

Harris_I said:

I can't profess to know anything on setup but FWIW, I used to run a Cup in one hour races with 2 drivers. In the early races, my partner would complain that the tyres had degraded too much at handover and he spent much of his half hour stint sawing at the wheel. This was in very high ambient temperatures so managing tyres was a high priority.

In the end we went for a compromised set up which would allow us to stay in contention for the first half hour - as a result I focused on a cerebral smooth style rather than balls out qualifying pace and that gave my partner something to work with when I handed over.

Yeah, tyre management in these things becomes an issue pretty quickly. The spring rates really hit the rubber hard. A half hour race a sprint pace leaves you struggling before the end, trying to then make it through another race (essentially) would be hugely unenjoyable for the poor sod in second

[fioran0]

JarmoL said:

In Finland we have both the static test and also track side monitoring.(95db limit) Static test is rather pointless for the reasons you stated earlier.

At Spa there was supposed to be static test as well but they didn't bother and everyone got on driving. No problems with trackside monitoring, the limit was 103db. That was 2012 though.

Thanks Jarmo, I was curious to hear if it was just a UK thing. At least it doesn't seem to be the single focus elsewhere if its not dropped completely. I wonder if Spa is still doing 103db trackside. Thats achievable for almost all cars, even 95db trackside is workable for most everything (and the few that cannot can lift off). Asking people to pass it in the car park is a nonsense.

[fioran0]

graemel said:

It's not something I have really thought about. My time in a 996 Cup was fairly limited. It was not running adjustable dampers by design. In truth more to do with preventing the guy who's car it was constantly fiddling about with it and getting nowhere. With this setup it felt fairly soft.
After a couple of races we got the RSR style blades which did improve upon things. Mike Jordan spent half a day at Silverstone setting the car up with the new arb's and I went up in the afternoon to do a few laps in it and get acquainted. You could take bridge flat which I thought was impressive. A couple of years later I found out it was running a standard road car ratio gearbox. Don't ask me why.
In truth I guess I have never had the chance to compare a fast hands or slow hands setup. I've always been fairly good at driving around a cars short comings. The first time I drove a 996 Cup was at Silverstone on the National. Being used to the old air cooled stuff it took a bit of re learning. But once I got my head around the different driving style it was ok.
Mike is a very clever guy and would wander around the circuit watching the car through every corner. There was no lap timer or pit board timing throughout the entire day. All seat of the pants stuff. The last session that I was given for that day was on very tired slicks. I was half a second of Mike's qualifying time for the Bill Taylor race two weeks previous in similar conditions. Unbeknown to me this was effectively me qualifying as to whether or not I would be going to Daytona.

Graeme, I was thinking about your Daytona run when I was posting too and whether you had run a hectic or relaxed car for it (beyond the setup changes simply for the banking alone).
When did you run there? Was it early in the cycle of the 996?

[fioran0]

Steve Rance said:

This is all very well Graeme but where's the substance to this thread. Did your car have white stitching and pink calipers or perhaps blue stitching with red?

Steve, stop distracting from the topic. We all want to know what shoes and gloves he wore?

[graemel]

Harris_I said:

But didn't Ayrton Senna specify the largest possible steering wheel in his cockpit (so as to reduce the sensitivity of input to response)?

There seems to be a trend these days in favour of small wheels with thick rims - meaning overly darty responses and less sensitivity. On the days I jump from a modern car into my integrale, it amazes me how manufacturers got it so right a couple of decades ago but since then seem to have been dictated to by marketing departments instead.

Sorry for the aside, but this is a great thread!

I can understand the logic in that and I don't like thick rims but I'm talking about a very large wheel. A long time ago but possible 380 or 400mm in diameter. It just made it bloody hard work. You effectively had to put a lot more arm and shoulder effort in to make the required corrections. I remember testing at Oulton and I did a few laps in the other Cup that was running with us. In truth to try out the sequential gearbox as I had not had any experience of one. That was a real eye opener. With its smaller steering wheel and the box it made life so much easier. I can't remember the make of the wheel but I think they were about £1200 or £1500 at the time.

[graemel]

fioran0 said:

Graeme, I was thinking about your Daytona run when I was posting too and whether you had run a hectic or relaxed car for it (beyond the setup changes simply for the banking alone).
When did you run there? Was it early in the cycle of the 996?

2002. It was a bit of a baptism of fire. I'd driven 996 Cup for the first time at Silverstone. I obviously needed to have a drive of the GTR prior to Daytona. They needed to run the fresh engine in so in November at Donington on a typically miserable, wet and overcast day I drove the 996 GTR for the first time.
The next time I drove the R would be at Daytona. There was very little free practise time and we all had to get acquainted. I was warned that the brakes (no abs of coure) would feel very wooden with very little feedback. I was given a tip that took a bit courage to go with and of course it worked.
Personally I thought the car was over sprung. We talked about it but we did not have a flat floor so we had to go with what we had. Through the in field part of the circuit it wanted to swap ends. By that I mean if you got on the throttle to early it would light the rears up and before you knew it you were going backwards. As you know they have very little lock and you had to be incredibly quick to catch it. I think I spun it four times which was more than I had ever spun a 911 during 9 years of racing. MS spun it three times so that made me feel a lot better. Especially as he had been racing one for a good few years. Thankfully none of us spun it during the race.
I remember on my first few laps getting cramp in my right thigh. I thought how the bloody hell am I going to get through 24 hours and then made myself relax.
For me it was a miriad of firsts. Driving the R, the first proper race car I had ever driven. Studying the data overlays to see where I was loosing time as there was no time to play catch up by seat of the pants. Driving on a banked circuit. Racing for 24 hours. Going out to play with the big boys and being over taken by cars pulling well over 200mph. As MS said afterwards "well we'll never be scared of driving fast again will we"



You can see where I got the colour scheme from for the 3.2 SSE

Edited by graemel on Wednesday 15th January 21:54

Edited by graemel on Wednesday 15th January 22:09