More hype and plain silliness

[P50]

IMIA said:

P50 said:

IMIA said:

355Chris355 said:

This year is the start of sanity resuming. See my bubble link below:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Like some have said. A fool and his money are easily parted. It's made sense for dealers to wait for that fool to come along rather than actively selling cars. That's why certain dealers have been willing to increase prices by >£10k increments even though that particular car may have been in the showroom for 12 months.

The economic fundamentals are changing but no doubt it will take time for pricing to 'normalise'.

I hope you're right but I feel you may be wrong because if you actually try and find a good original patina collectable thats not been restored certainly in the air-cooled market its very difficult indeed to find a good one - that 911virgin 88 carrera probably already sold 5 times over.

Seems to me that most "mug" punters do not understand nor value originaliy over restored. Originality is lord and should be placed above anything that has been knocked out and then invariably half decently rebuilt.

Older stuff i.e 60's is very hard to find original. I have a few original bits and they are leagues ahead of any machines that have been faffed up.

An original unpainted RHD G50 coupe is all but impossible. In fact any decent G50 is rare as they are all rotting out through be such a good car and being used in their day.

Prices for good cars of all marques will continue to climb...

Steve McQueens old car now cherished by his son Chad. SWB 1969 911S I think. 1 family owner 50,000 miles and all original down to the rubber on its pedals. He'll never sell it but if it did ever come on the market it would make a stupid amount of money due to provenance and condition. I expect many a race car such as IROC 3.0 RSR would be cheaper to buy. Find another SWB. One of one in that condition and that provenance.





The point here is that this car is never going to down in value IMO. Its true collectable and always will be. The fact that it has its original patina and Steve McQueens sweat on the steering wheel is what makes it truly special. Crash, boom , bust whatever this will probably be worth roughly the same in any of those scenarios and so it should be.

Hold on old boy! that's the top of the tree. Anything of that calibre is on a completely different level.

The uber rich will always be in the market for Rothko's, left handed Seadwellers, Sunseeker dingies and Mayfair/Belgravia property.

Us mere mortals are trying to get our head round why the air cooled 911 has gone fecking insane. I mean a TR6 hasn't gone mad. Nor has a Messerschmitt KR200 or a 260Z.

The only thing I know is humans never learn and have a very short lemming like memory. This whole ponzi pyramid market of cretins who do not have a clue buying junk up for obscene money will probably end in tears.

I love my G50 and if it all falls out of bed I care not as I have no intention of selling. However the market is distorted by hype and divs who want to trouser a quick buck.

What goes up must come down said Mr Newton.

[P50]

I find it hard to believe that anyone in a 993 would get into a 997 or 991.

Ever.

[P50]

g7jhp said:

P50 said:

I find it hard to believe that anyone in a 993 would get into a 997 or 991.

Ever.

Why?

Lots of air cooled 911 owners own a water cooled 911 as well.

I mean anyone who drives a 993 for pleasure/investment is going to sell it and buy a waser pumper.

Different beasts. Invariably polarised opinions...

[P50]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Hmm? I'm not so sure that these "new" investors are idiots who can be ripped off at ease.

If you have 50k, 100, 500 or a million quid to spend on a machine you're invariably no fool. Yes there will be some gullible types but most will be astute individuals who feel the cars price is worth what it is.

Going back to the 3.2 I think they have been undervalued for far too long. It seems the 308/328 has increased commensurate with the 911 so it's not that an anomaly.

I think however that a Targa Carrera 3 or 2.7 IB at over 100k is utter crap and is just dealers trying it on.

What the future holds I know not but if I had to speculate on a crash, static or rising, I'd probably go for static for the next couple of years.

I see no reason for a crash. Much like prime London property. Z1/2 London gafs are now for the extremely wealthy and therefore are not for Sun reader consumption!

[P50]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I concede that there will be some new types on the scene looking to trouser a few quid but your usual classic car enthusiast is exactly that. An enthusiast.

He will be buying through desire. Invariably saved up, traded up, done well in other markets and buying his prize for hard earned cash.

Cretins in Range Sports and X5's with crap plates are all fart and no $hit. They buy on finance and generally are two paydays away from financial melt down. Most but no all.

Classic car blokes are a different breed. I live in W11 and I see Pagoda's smoking around and Aston DB's here and there.

They are driven and owned by epic players. Period.

[P50]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

One could argue that Z1/2 property has also gone insane.

It is no longer the preserve of the merely wealthy. A one bed council flat in W11 is £650k!

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prope...

That is FECKING INSANE!!

25% deposit needed? £162k if you please.

then your 480k mortgage PLUS costs like stamp etc.

You need to be on 120k a year (at 4 x salary loan if you can get it, if not you'll need to be on £150k PA at 3ish times) and have 160k kicking around for the dep.

All this to live in a one bed COUNCIL FLAT!! It's an "ideal first time buy". WTF? first time? err if you're a director of a multinational. I've never read so much crud.

Everything has gone mad. Utterly off the scale insane.

You or I do not dictate the market. It is what it is.

There a are a LOT of very wealthy people around these days and they will spend it as they see fit.

(Certain) Classic cars will become the preserve of the UBER rich. Even the porridge ordinaries could afford. Like 3.2's!

Or it might all crash?

Who knows?!!!!

Edited by P50 on Thursday 19th March 23:01

Edited by P50 on Thursday 19th March 23:04

[P50]

This dude doesn't know what he's even selling. 118k miles 40 grand?

Supersport? Confidence not inspired. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 pounds.

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

[P50]

roygarth said:

fredt said:

I do not know many people who would turn down a car because it was too cheap and telling the seller to up his price, so why are you condemning traders doing the same? Trader bashing is getting tedious, they are just doing what they always did, buy and sell cars. Now with bigger profit. If you think they are making too much money start a company and get trading...

Soo many new dealers have opened up last 18 months...all fighting for stock.

There's 60 odd wanted ads on Pistonheads.

Who would you choose?! Why bother if they're so easy to sell at huge money! DIY!

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

[P50]

SidewaysSi said:

Have dealers priced themselves out of good stock?

Which is why SOR is in vogue. Lovely contract and everyone's a winner..

(except the punter it seems...!)

[P50]

Frio3535 said:

26k mi, hexagon asking £60k.

A 928 aint no 911.

I happen to like them but they're a long legged GT and are not terribly "widow making"

Miles is lord and Hexagon like to charge..

60k? see title!

[P50]

Here's a tastefully modded 993 where the evolution and years of Porsche's progression through racing has clearly been improved apon by a gentleman who has an eye for style and quite exceptional taste.

Does it say Vaj on the bottom of the door? Quite apt if so.

So if you can't quite stretch to an £80k rebuilt 3.2 and only have £70k then I would avoid buying any boring unrestored stock a/c 911 and make a bee line to this little cracker.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1995-Porsche-911-3-6-Car...

Edited by P50 on Monday 23 March 14:10

Edited by P50 on Monday 23 March 14:11

[P50]

IMIA said:

Good spot! If someone bites all well and good if not no bother. Fancy a manual 430 or 360 Coupe as I've never had an Italian exotic and do not have garage space for all of them. I have a 964 C2 and 997 turbo too so 911s coming out of my ears! Rationale is that if restored cars like the Paul Stephens and JZM car are £70k-£80K then honestly this is miles better as an original no rust no accident repair lovely spec car with full history. Hairpin Co have bought and sold her on a few occasions and when I bought my 964 C2 off them Hairpins owner a lovely fellow called Neil Dickens told me he thought she was a goodun. Thanks of the exposure. Not sure I'll actually be able to part with her if someone wants to buy her as I'll struggle to find a similar spec car which has only ever had front end resprayed by Tuthills due to stone chips. lol

few more pics

A proper car for all the money.

I think your price is well over book but best of luck to you. Yee can only but try.

I know what you mean re letting it go. I couldn't sell mine and I reckon mine's in the same condition if not even better. Never had paint and don't need it! Mine was Charles Marsland's (PCGB 3.2 Register Technical guru) and had a 7 page spread on it in Porsche 911 world. It is a basically a reference car. Even has the factory barcode sticker on the N/S door post. No kidney bowl stinkness on my G50!

Pic from 25 pages back.

Edited by P50 on Monday 23 March 16:47

[P50]

IMIA said:

P50 said:

IMIA said:

Good spot! If someone bites all well and good if not no bother. Fancy a manual 430 or 360 Coupe as I've never had an Italian exotic and do not have garage space for all of them. I have a 964 C2 and 997 turbo too so 911s coming out of my ears! Rationale is that if restored cars like the Paul Stephens and JZM car are £70k-£80K then honestly this is miles better as an original no rust no accident repair lovely spec car with full history. Hairpin Co have bought and sold her on a few occasions and when I bought my 964 C2 off them Hairpins owner a lovely fellow called Neil Dickens told me he thought she was a goodun. Thanks of the exposure. Not sure I'll actually be able to part with her if someone wants to buy her as I'll struggle to find a similar spec car which has only ever had front end resprayed by Tuthills due to stone chips. lol

few more pics

A proper car for all the money.

I think your price is well over book but best of luck to you. Yee can only but try.

I know what you mean re letting it go. I couldn't sell mine and I reckon mine's in the same condition if not even better. Never had paint and don't need it! Mine was Charles Marsland's (PCGB 3.2 Register Technical guru) and had a 7 page spread on it in Porsche 911 world. It is a basically a reference car. Even has the factory barcode sticker on the N/S door post. No kidney bowl stinkness on my G50!

Pic from 25 pages back.

Edited by P50 on Monday 23 March 16:47

She's a beauty - lovely colour! From my experience and I've driven everything from a 2.7RS to 930 to a 964 the 3.2C G50 is a sweet spot! Pretty rapid when she lifts her skirt up too!

Fully agreed. The G50 box in the torsion 911 is the best of the lot. Period. It all came together in the '87 model year.

I was thinking of a Ferrari but after a good hard ponder I thought no thanks. Only one I'd want is a 60's and they're big boys toys now. Or a 246.

I think my '72 Fiat 500 is built 10 times better than any 60's 70's Ferrari!

[P50]

We'll I wouldn't sell mine for 50. or 90. Here's the problem...

No good cars left...

As I said it's a reference car. Excuse the crappy pics. I don't know if it's the car you mention. probably!

Mine's one of the best and will never be for sale...

Edited by P50 on Tuesday 24th March 08:51

Edited by P50 on Tuesday 24th March 08:52

[P50]

Black_mamba said:

Its funny, one of my old cars was featured in 911&Porscheworld back in 2008, it made me scamper upstairs to get the magazine out, I took a look at the adverts and what these cars were going for then! we all need time machines

But if it all falls out of bed some eggheads may have lots of yolk all over their shirts....

[P50]

Black_mamba said:

P50 said:

Black_mamba said:

Its funny, one of my old cars was featured in 911&Porscheworld back in 2008, it made me scamper upstairs to get the magazine out, I took a look at the adverts and what these cars were going for then! we all need time machines

But if it all falls out of bed some eggheads may have lots of yolk all over their shirts....

...or maybe not. I think that with inflation at zero, interest rates not far behind and not likely to go up anytime soon where does someone spend some money. Wait till grandpa starts spending his pension pot too! The thing is there is a wide gulf between crappy cars, good cars and very good cars and it can be very hard to tell one from another from an ad. I wonder how many cars are shifting from the the very optimistic price range (lets say the £80k level) and the more realistic, but still strong, £30k - £50k level, and now the new 'bargain basement doer upper level' (sub £25k). The cars I'm referencing are 3.2's. From my own recent experience I nearly had my hand snapped off selling a late 3.2 in good but not A1 nick for early £30k's. Phone rang off the hook. I priced too low. Next one I let go will be more. Prices are still ticking up...

You know what? I agree. I started this thread and in such a short space of time prices have gone simply insane.

I can name perhaps two RHD G50 coupes that were REALLY good and have sold. One was a silver 40k miles car which at £50k I thought was mega heavy. The dealer would not move and it went. That was then just a few months ago. Now it’s cheap for that quality in a good colour. Then we have the Hexagon commemorative car which has (allegedly) sold for £85k.

Above we have the black coupe all but £80k. There is a world of difference between restored and original. The true cognoscenti will pay a huge amount of money for an un-messed cherished car.

They are that rare in original condition as most have had loads of owners and they slowly drift into decrepitude.

If you have an utter corker, don’t care if you sell it or not and do not need the money you won’t be too fussed about letting it go.

Caveat Emptor (and Actor)

[P50]

mudy said:

I think you have to add a section between cars on original paint that are total minters
and then you next line about drifting through loads of owners into decrepitude ...
My 930 has had 5 owners in 27 years and is not (like most cars) on its original paint
Neither has it drifted into decrepitude ...
I would say that most enthusiast owned cars are like mine - they have mostly had their kidneys done, top ends are seen to when needed, suspension and cosmetics are as new and servicing is on the button with a good indy; basically, everything is attended to as and when needed - essentially no expense spared. Those who are handy with such things will keep the costs down by doing some work themselves.
Just because it's not as from the factory (of which surely only a handful remain), it doesn't mean the car isn't in fantastic condition - it just means it won't attract the true investor and won't get top top money as a result.
Oh and not enough pictures in this thread - this was at the weekend:

Endorsed and correct. A proper well maintained documented car that has had work over the years will certainly have a higher value over a nice looking car that doesn't have the wad of receipts to substantiate what's what.

It's a minefield out there and water finds its own level.

The trick is to sniff out an untouched minter for pennies. Buying a gobbed up pooh heap for big £'s will ruin your life!

There's a thread somewhere on Pelican or Rennlist about some poor sod in NZ who bought a UK G50 sight unseen but inspected before pulling the trigger.

When he got it out the container it looked OK. When it was on ramps it quickly beacme apparent the car was utterly fecked.

It needed the works and then some.

Anyone got a link? Very sobering..

Edited by P50 on Tuesday 24th March 15:06

[P50]

IMIA said:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

I've been to see this car. Comparable to mine with better mileage although I think mine is in slightly better nick and has better spec with short shift, turbo rear fuchs , sports seats and LSD.

And yours is not red. I'm sure a lot of people love it but I'm no lover or a red Porsche.

I would not have bought mine if it was red. This is my personal choice but a typical 80's red 911 with red Fuch's, possibly a targa, linen leather piped red is all rather too much and very yuppy 80's.

Lovett's car's a coupe with black leather but a non period colour is much more funky. Although the old addage of always but on condition is to be observed I'd not pay the 75k on that! (somebody will though Im sure..)

[P50]

g7jhp said:

Black_mamba said:

and we have a new winner!

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

looks nice, but 115 bags...

LHD and non-sport, no sports seats. So not a UK, Hong Kong bound car. Mad asking price!

Who wants LHD in the UK?! Lovely miles (too low to use?) and it is non sport which is a major plus (wish mine was).

115 large is indeed a new winner.

Someone will buy it I suspect...

[P50]

Wozy68 said:

Jibaro said:

The ride height looks weird to me, makes the rear quarter look awkward & makes it look like a dinky car in the pics IMO. Looks like the cars getting a bit of lift at standstill

It does to me also, I'm assuming that's because she's wearing standard springs/dampers rather than sports.

It's such a shame that the 3.2 is going for silly money now. You can't beat the look of an unspoilered car and I always fancied one in guards to race around in again. Now all of them are to expensive, even the tat.

Cold bright Sunday morning, salt on the road but dry, not too worried about having to clean her straight away when you got back. Happy days and gone for ever.

A 3.2 was the workhorse of the 911 range, good value, robust and could be thrashed to within an inchof it's life and you could sell it on two years later for what you paid for it and someone else could enjoy it.

Well done speculators ........ You've ruined it.

I took my car back to Charles Marsland yesterday. He's the 3.2 Register Tech Bod with PCGB. A basic once over and oil/filter change as it was fully serviced 3k miles ago.

He owned my car for 10 years and maintained it regardless of cost so the only person who is going to continue to maintain it is him. If you need work done to the highest level for a very reasonable price then have a word. He has an immaculate set up and can do all mechanical work.

We spoke of values and it seems there are many people are getting in touch with him asking if he knew of any really good cars. This is like 3 times a week. Even dealers are on him trying to buy his car which obviously is now mine. Marlsand said he can't refer even ONE car as he doesn't know of any for sale off the radar and he's the PCGB dude!

There simply isn't any A1 Carrera's coming up. There's definitely a plethora of excellent cars out there but they're not for sale. It would seem in the current climate they will not be for sale. So if you want an "investment grade" good one then you are going to have to have extremely deep pockets as supply is all but nil and demand is outrageous.

QED

Footnote. I know of an utterly rust free original G50 coupe in nougat with 69k miles which the owner would let go for£70k. He's not fussed about letting it go as he said he'd not be able to replace it. It matters not if that's too stiff a price that's the situation. Regretfully it seems to be replicated all over the market..

Are potential buyers "speculators" or simple punters who want a good car but are trapped in a .5% interest rate zero inflation climate where money is cheap and supply of "performing" investments is narrow..?

Edited by P50 on Saturday 28th March 07:00

Edited by P50 on Saturday 28th March 07:04