Well here it is - the 720S
Discussion
flemke said:
AIUI, that colour is not a listed option on the car, and thus it would be a "to order" colour. If so, £8k is cheap compared to what some car-makers charge for a unique colour. The car makers get a big profit on all this stuff, but the extra work required to paint a car in a unique colour is quite a bit more than simply pouring a different pot of paint into the spray gun.
What extra work is required?foxsasha said:
What extra work is required?
Logistics stuff mostly. A car needing non standard paint normally needs extra management through the build/paint process, possibilities are things like a separate paint booth/line, special painters (if hand sprayed), extra QC measures, all this on top of the fact that the paint itself won't benefit from the volume pricing that the main colours will get. Car factories are geared up to make the huge number of standard production-spec cars as efficiently as possible, anything outside that remit starts to need special treatment. It's not just which colour they pour in the gun.
Not saying that it costs McLaren 8k more to do, of course they want to make a handsome profit on it, but it will cost them more to produce that car.
The 'daft' comment on the paint was around the fact it is only a special (circa 1.5k) paint for the sports series but not on the list for the 720s so hence the 8k. Surely it will be used a lot for the 5 series and likely to be in the same paint preparation area.
You are all right though, the 8k is not too high for the relative cost of the car, but is the same price as a decent rolex watch so nothing to be sniffed at.
You are all right though, the 8k is not too high for the relative cost of the car, but is the same price as a decent rolex watch so nothing to be sniffed at.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
You'd know more than I, but it is gouging at its finest as I see it. On a new car.
It is not as if anything needs 'undoing'
As I wrote above, the car-makers do indeed enjoy massive margins on options, but it's not as if there were a production line of cars-in-white and as soon as the next car gets to the paint station the sprayer presses a button to refill his gun with any colour in the spectrum, waves his arms around a bit in the direction of the car, and then it's job done.It is not as if anything needs 'undoing'
A factory is critically reliant on the predictability of its operations. Introducing a new paint colour interrupts the predictability and smoothness of the operations, not to mention its increasing the risk of error, which can be very costly. Some car-makers will outright refuse to take an order for a custom paint colour: they do that for a reason.
McLaren's production process is not the same as Toyota's churning out a million Corollas. Nonetheless McLaren do rely enough on economies of scale and smooth, predictable production schedules that the effective cost of making a car in a custom paint colour is a lot more than just the cost of the paint in the pot.
flemke said:
As I wrote above, the car-makers do indeed enjoy massive margins on options, but it's not as if there were a production line of cars-in-white and as soon as the next car gets to the paint station the sprayer presses a button to refill his gun with any colour in the spectrum, waves his arms around a bit in the direction of the car, and then it's job done.
A factory is critically reliant on the predictability of its operations. Introducing a new paint colour interrupts the predictability and smoothness of the operations, not to mention its increasing the risk of error, which can be very costly. Some car-makers will outright refuse to take an order for a custom paint colour: they do that for a reason.
McLaren's production process is not the same as Toyota's churning out a million Corollas. Nonetheless McLaren do rely enough on economies of scale and smooth, predictable production schedules that the effective cost of making a car in a custom paint colour is a lot more than just the cost of the paint in the pot.
Nope, still don't understand this, its paint, they have to fill the gun anyway, they just fill it with a different colour. I can see the difficulties if it were Toyota but its not, its McLaren, I believe all their cars are hand painted anyway. Customer chooses the paint, McLaren order the required paint from their current paint supplier so its a known quantity to work with, they fill the pot with the new colour. I'm not seeing the 8 grand administration charge for this. A factory is critically reliant on the predictability of its operations. Introducing a new paint colour interrupts the predictability and smoothness of the operations, not to mention its increasing the risk of error, which can be very costly. Some car-makers will outright refuse to take an order for a custom paint colour: they do that for a reason.
McLaren's production process is not the same as Toyota's churning out a million Corollas. Nonetheless McLaren do rely enough on economies of scale and smooth, predictable production schedules that the effective cost of making a car in a custom paint colour is a lot more than just the cost of the paint in the pot.
If its a special type of paint that require extra procedures to apply then yes, I can understand a significant surcharge but like for like paint simply in another colour, no. I believe they charge 8 grand because people will pay 8 grand, the cost isn't reflected in the job done. Same reason everything revolving around McLarens costs so much. Servicing, optional extras etc, they charge it because they can, not because its a true reflection of cost.
Unless, that is, they do farm the job out to a third party ior the car goes through a completely separate paint process, do McLaren do this?
monaco1981 said:
The 'daft' comment on the paint was around the fact it is only a special (circa 1.5k) paint for the sports series but not on the list for the 720s so hence the 8k. Surely it will be used a lot for the 5 series and likely to be in the same paint preparation area.
You are all right though, the 8k is not too high for the relative cost of the car, but is the same price as a decent rolex watch so nothing to be sniffed at.
£8k in comparison to the cost of the car, not as a reflection to cost. Precisely. They can charge it so they do charge it. People will pay it so why not?You are all right though, the 8k is not too high for the relative cost of the car, but is the same price as a decent rolex watch so nothing to be sniffed at.
foxsasha said:
flemke said:
As I wrote above, the car-makers do indeed enjoy massive margins on options, but it's not as if there were a production line of cars-in-white and as soon as the next car gets to the paint station the sprayer presses a button to refill his gun with any colour in the spectrum, waves his arms around a bit in the direction of the car, and then it's job done.
A factory is critically reliant on the predictability of its operations. Introducing a new paint colour interrupts the predictability and smoothness of the operations, not to mention its increasing the risk of error, which can be very costly. Some car-makers will outright refuse to take an order for a custom paint colour: they do that for a reason.
McLaren's production process is not the same as Toyota's churning out a million Corollas. Nonetheless McLaren do rely enough on economies of scale and smooth, predictable production schedules that the effective cost of making a car in a custom paint colour is a lot more than just the cost of the paint in the pot.
Nope, still don't understand this, its paint, they have to fill the gun anyway, they just fill it with a different colour. I can see the difficulties if it were Toyota but its not, its McLaren, I believe all their cars are hand painted anyway. Customer chooses the paint, McLaren order the required paint from their current paint supplier so its a known quantity to work with, they fill the pot with the new colour. I'm not seeing the 8 grand administration charge for this. A factory is critically reliant on the predictability of its operations. Introducing a new paint colour interrupts the predictability and smoothness of the operations, not to mention its increasing the risk of error, which can be very costly. Some car-makers will outright refuse to take an order for a custom paint colour: they do that for a reason.
McLaren's production process is not the same as Toyota's churning out a million Corollas. Nonetheless McLaren do rely enough on economies of scale and smooth, predictable production schedules that the effective cost of making a car in a custom paint colour is a lot more than just the cost of the paint in the pot.
If its a special type of paint that require extra procedures to apply then yes, I can understand a significant surcharge but like for like paint simply in another colour, no. I believe they charge 8 grand because people will pay 8 grand, the cost isn't reflected in the job done. Same reason everything revolving around McLarens costs so much. Servicing, optional extras etc, they charge it because they can, not because its a true reflection of cost.
Unless, that is, they do farm the job out to a third party ior the car goes through a completely separate paint process, do McLaren do this?
Venturist said:
Logistics stuff mostly. A car needing non standard paint normally needs extra management through the build/paint process, possibilities are things like a separate paint booth/line, special painters (if hand sprayed), extra QC measures, all this on top of the fact that the paint itself won't benefit from the volume pricing that the main colours will get.
Car factories are geared up to make the huge number of standard production-spec cars as efficiently as possible, anything outside that remit starts to need special treatment. It's not just which colour they pour in the gun.
Not saying that it costs McLaren 8k more to do, of course they want to make a handsome profit on it, but it will cost them more to produce that car.
Again, no one is saying that car-makers do not make a big margin off this work. What we are trying to get across to you is that for an organisation comprising a large staff and doing a huge amount of parts, production, and delivery coordination, it is more than simply putting red rather than blue into a pot.Car factories are geared up to make the huge number of standard production-spec cars as efficiently as possible, anything outside that remit starts to need special treatment. It's not just which colour they pour in the gun.
Not saying that it costs McLaren 8k more to do, of course they want to make a handsome profit on it, but it will cost them more to produce that car.
A proper product lifecycle should allow managing internally a myriad of colour codes, but as said logistics is the problem that increases with the number of painted parts and the number of possibly different suppliers for all painted parts. Outsourcing painted parts increases the risk of colour mismatches, but it's a process used and managed more or less well by well-staffed OEMs, though through robust thus relatively heavy quality processes. McLaren Automotive is a small company, if certainly well-organised, but the company's motto is probably not about shiny paint jobs and glamour looks. With that said I don't understand why they don't have a proper BRG or some "Volcano Green" on offer instead of that teeth-shattering Mint Green that looks terrible elsewhere than on a Miura. It's still a British brand, no?
Thom said:
With that said I don't understand why they don't have a proper BRG or some "Volcano Green" on offer instead of that teeth-shattering Mint Green that looks terrible elsewhere than on a Miura. It's still a British brand, no?
Indeed, but, at least as regards BRG, it's been available at McLaren since 1993 and they have had very little take-up of it.
MDL111 said:
My point was that if he wants to build rapport (a big "if" imo as not sure it is worthwhile) then he has to start somewhere - and ordering a 488 and an 812 is a decent enough start. Throw in a Cali or a GTC4 in the next couple of years and you are making good progress overall. If he buys a Lambo or a McLaren he is nowhere with his F dealer.
Well that's fine and dandy but you just described about $500,000 worth of depreciation he's going to have to eat so he can buy a $400,000 V8 special derivative car one day maybe. Also, assuming he orders those new, it will take two years to accumulate all those cars and then some time for them to depreciate. So he's likely not going to make the Speciale/GTO/etc derivative of 488 going that route. He might be in line for some other car 6 years from now but he'll have to keep playing the game through that entire 6-8 years if he wants to stay anywhere near the list for the special derivative of the car that follows the 488. Also he's going to need to go to some pretty expensive Ferrari events too. Let's not forget that. Ferrari is making fantastic cars so, if you've got the money and desire, this is a pretty fun way to become a Ferrari VIP. I realize to some people this product churn might sound distasteful (especially when some celebrity who has never bought a Ferrari before gets to walk up and buy a LaFerrari Aperta) but if Ferrari dealers didn't establish this sort of customer hierarchy they'd be nothing more than glorified order takers while customers trade all the desirable used cars privately without their involvement and without going through their certification process which helps ensure you're getting a sound used Ferrari that's been properly serviced. They need this flow of used Ferraris to keep their sales up and their service operations humming and keep new customer coming through their doors.
MarkNC said:
MDL111 said:
My point was that if he wants to build rapport (a big "if" imo as not sure it is worthwhile) then he has to start somewhere - and ordering a 488 and an 812 is a decent enough start. Throw in a Cali or a GTC4 in the next couple of years and you are making good progress overall. If he buys a Lambo or a McLaren he is nowhere with his F dealer.
Well that's fine and dandy but you just described about $500,000 worth of depreciation he's going to have to eat so he can buy a $400,000 V8 special derivative car one day maybe. Also, assuming he orders those new, it will take two years to accumulate all those cars and then some time for them to depreciate. So he's likely not going to make the Speciale/GTO/etc derivative of 488 going that route. He might be in line for some other car 6 years from now but he'll have to keep playing the game through that entire 6-8 years if he wants to stay anywhere near the list for the special derivative of the car that follows the 488. Also he's going to need to go to some pretty expensive Ferrari events too. Let's not forget that. Ferrari is making fantastic cars so, if you've got the money and desire, this is a pretty fun way to become a Ferrari VIP. I realize to some people this product churn might sound distasteful (especially when some celebrity who has never bought a Ferrari before gets to walk up and buy a LaFerrari Aperta) but if Ferrari dealers didn't establish this sort of customer hierarchy they'd be nothing more than glorified order takers while customers trade all the desirable used cars privately without their involvement and without going through their certification process which helps ensure you're getting a sound used Ferrari that's been properly serviced. They need this flow of used Ferraris to keep their sales up and their service operations humming and keep new customer coming through their doors.
Obviously some people love the Ferrari way of doing things. Others of us, however, are not willing to be bent over and ****ed by a bunch of pretentious, manipulative jerks.
Ferrari make some very fine products, but a company is not defined by its products alone. Ferrari don't care about me (or about any individual, for that matter), but out of principle I (and I am not alone) will not buy anything from those scumbags.
But Ferrari are simply the most brazen in exploiting their position in the market to do so and are somewhat unfairly singled out imo. Everyone else does the same to some degree or wishes that they can do the same. Try getting a Porsche GT car from a UK OPC without buying a heap of SUVs or being mates with the dealer principal for example....and Mclaren are no different either. I've more or less been told I don't have a chance of buying a P15 without buying at least one variant of the 720 and plenty of list shuffling has taken place in marques other than Ferrari for 'high priority' customers.
Ultimately the dealerships whatever the marque are probably not incorrectly always going to prioritise their best (ie highest profit) customers for the cars that are highly in demand.
Ultimately the dealerships whatever the marque are probably not incorrectly always going to prioritise their best (ie highest profit) customers for the cars that are highly in demand.
flemke said:
Obviously some people love the Ferrari way of doing things. Others of us, however, are not willing to be bent over and ****ed by a bunch of pretentious, manipulative jerks.
I doubt anyone loves that situation. As soon as you stop playing the game you run the risk that someone else takes your spot and access to the cars you really want to drive dries up. There's just not enough product to go around. isaldiri said:
But Ferrari are simply the most brazen in exploiting their position in the market to do so and are somewhat unfairly singled out imo. Everyone else does the same to some degree or wishes that they can do the same. Try getting a Porsche GT car from a UK OPC without buying a heap of SUVs or being mates with the dealer principal for example....and Mclaren are no different either. I've more or less been told I don't have a chance of buying a P15 without buying at least one variant of the 720 and plenty of list shuffling has taken place in marques other than Ferrari for 'high priority' customers.
Ultimately the dealerships whatever the marque are probably not incorrectly always going to prioritise their best (ie highest profit) customers for the cars that are highly in demand.
I single them out because, as far as I know, Ferrari were the first and are the worst. Who else is so dishonest and manipulative in their road testing and control of and threats to journalists?Ultimately the dealerships whatever the marque are probably not incorrectly always going to prioritise their best (ie highest profit) customers for the cars that are highly in demand.
I may have related this before, but a few years ago a Ferrari main dealer offered a friend of mine "the third 458 Speciale that will be coming to the UK". The thing was, if he bought the car, my friend also:
- would have to order at least £30,000 worth of options, of which at least £23,000-worth would be selected not by my friend but by the main dealer,
- would have to agree that, were he to sell the car within the first year, half of any profit would be given to the main dealer, and
- regardless of the fact that my friend did not require any finance, he would have to buy it with at least 50% of the total price financed through Ferrari, and the dealer made it clear that they wanted him to take 100% finance.
Agreed, other car-makers (and I would guess manufacturers of certain other high-end products) play the same game, but AFAIK Ferrari perfected it and exploit it as a fundamental part of their overall strategy more than any of the others do.
MarkNC said:
flemke said:
Obviously some people love the Ferrari way of doing things. Others of us, however, are not willing to be bent over and ****ed by a bunch of pretentious, manipulative jerks.
I doubt anyone loves that situation. As soon as you stop playing the game you run the risk that someone else takes your spot and access to the cars you really want to drive dries up. There's just not enough product to go around. Porsche could have sold two or three times as many 911Rs as they did, at the exact same price that they did, and they knew that fact before they announced the size of the production run. So why didn't they raise the price or produce more, or both? Because they wanted to create a price bubble which they hoped would attract more interest to the brand and help them to sell their ordinary, unlimited-numbers models. It was legal for them to do that, but it was still a bush league manoeuvre.
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