Buying a McLaren - WARNING!
Discussion
Sarnie said:
To be honest, in all my years of buying cars, when researching a cars history I've never had a dealer say that they need to contact the owner for authorisation to release the info, as long as you have the VIN thats always been enough for me. I bought a 12c recently and McLaren dealers happily gave me the details of cars I was interested in......
The data protection act prevents dealers from supplying any data to a third party without the owners authority unless it's the subject of a court order or official investigation.Xpuffin said:
The data protection act prevents dealers from supplying any data to a third party without the owners authority unless it's the subject of a court order or official investigation.
No it doesn't. Or dealers aren't fussed.I'd got full details of five cars service history only last month. This has been the same for years also.
Never once been asked for the owner to give authority....
Sarnie said:
Xpuffin said:
The data protection act prevents dealers from supplying any data to a third party without the owners authority unless it's the subject of a court order or official investigation.
No it doesn't. Or dealers aren't fussed.I'd got full details of five cars service history only last month. This has been the same for years also.
Never once been asked for the owner to give authority....
Possibly there could be a wrinkle if the car were leased and technically still the property of the dealer group or manufacturer, but if owned free and clear by a private individual? No way.
flemke said:
Given how comprehensively data protection is applied in this country, I would be very surprised if a garage were allowed without permission to give to third parties reports on cars owned by other people.
Possibly there could be a wrinkle if the car were leased and technically still the property of the dealer group or manufacturer, but if owned free and clear by a private individual? No way.
Not sure if I could type it any differently...........there were cars I was interested in recently, I spoke to the dealers/owners.....got the service details....phoned up the dealers.....and every single one confirmed service dates, mileages, extra work carried out, McLaren recalls/upgrades that were carried out etc.........Possibly there could be a wrinkle if the car were leased and technically still the property of the dealer group or manufacturer, but if owned free and clear by a private individual? No way.
Same for ALL the cars I've ever bought. Not once have I been told that the owners authorisation was needed.
Edited by Sarnie on Friday 22 January 23:53
Sarnie said:
flemke said:
Given how comprehensively data protection is applied in this country, I would be very surprised if a garage were allowed without permission to give to third parties reports on cars owned by other people.
Possibly there could be a wrinkle if the car were leased and technically still the property of the dealer group or manufacturer, but if owned free and clear by a private individual? No way.
Not sure if I could type it any differently...........there were cars I was interested in recently, I spoke to the dealers/owners.....got the service details....phoned up the dealers.....and every single one confirmed service dates, mileages, extra work carried out, McLaren recalls/upgrades that were carried out etc.........Possibly there could be a wrinkle if the car were leased and technically still the property of the dealer group or manufacturer, but if owned free and clear by a private individual? No way.
Same for ALL the cars I've ever bought. Not once have I been told that the owners authorisation was needed.
Rather, what I meant was that I don't believe that a dealer would be permitted by law to disclose to a third party the service history of a car owned by a private person without that person's consent. Whether in practice dealers do it anyhow is another story.
If the car is with that dealer on SOR, that would be different. If however someone were just to rock up and say, "I am thinking about buying a car from somebody in a private sale: black 12C, reg #AB12 CDE. Would you give me its service history?", which was the basic situation of the OP, I can't see how the dealer would be allowed to disclose it.
I don't believe that dealers are allowed to clock cars either, but I have heard nasty rumours that some do!
flemke said:
Sarnie said:
flemke said:
Given how comprehensively data protection is applied in this country, I would be very surprised if a garage were allowed without permission to give to third parties reports on cars owned by other people.
Possibly there could be a wrinkle if the car were leased and technically still the property of the dealer group or manufacturer, but if owned free and clear by a private individual? No way.
Not sure if I could type it any differently...........there were cars I was interested in recently, I spoke to the dealers/owners.....got the service details....phoned up the dealers.....and every single one confirmed service dates, mileages, extra work carried out, McLaren recalls/upgrades that were carried out etc.........Possibly there could be a wrinkle if the car were leased and technically still the property of the dealer group or manufacturer, but if owned free and clear by a private individual? No way.
Same for ALL the cars I've ever bought. Not once have I been told that the owners authorisation was needed.
Rather, what I meant was that I don't believe that a dealer would be permitted by law to disclose to a third party the service history of a car owned by a private person without that person's consent. Whether in practice dealers do it anyhow is another story.
If the car is with that dealer on SOR, that would be different. If however someone were just to rock up and say, "I am thinking about buying a car from somebody in a private sale: black 12C, reg #AB12 CDE. Would you give me its service history?", which was the basic situation of the OP, I can't see how the dealer would be allowed to disclose it.
I don't believe that dealers are allowed to clock cars either, but I have heard nasty rumours that some do!
Dealers often rely on the DPA to say that they can't provide copies of invoices, which is correct, albeit that anonymised invoices could be provided without breach.
Like Sarnie, I have done this on many occasions without any problem. BMW even have a premium rate phone line to provide this information!
TISPKJ said:
Slightly off topic but even as the now owner of my car the main dealer is reluctant to give me a copy of the original bill of sale (which may start big issues so I can maybe understand that) or any of the service receipts.
Have asked a few times and it kind of gets glossed over.
There is nothing to preclude them doing so if you have the previous owner's consent or the invoices are anonymised. After all, the v5 gives you the personal details of the previous owner. Have asked a few times and it kind of gets glossed over.
will_ said:
There's nothing in the Data Protection Act to preclude it, as it isn't personal data. The government even give public acces to information which is akin to service history in respect of the mot history of a vehicle.
Dealers often rely on the DPA to say that they can't provide copies of invoices, which is correct, albeit that anonymised invoices could be provided without breach.
Like Sarnie, I have done this on many occasions without any problem. BMW even have a premium rate phone line to provide this information!
Yep, I've used that BMW line before too.....the only resistance I've ever had was a request for the VIN as well as the reg......I assume on the assumption that the owner must have been happy to divulge that to allow me to confirm the service history.Dealers often rely on the DPA to say that they can't provide copies of invoices, which is correct, albeit that anonymised invoices could be provided without breach.
Like Sarnie, I have done this on many occasions without any problem. BMW even have a premium rate phone line to provide this information!
Also, as you mentioned about anonymised invoices, the first two service sheets were missing from my cars history, the McLaren dealer provided copies of them, just had the owners name and address removed from them, no problem as the dates, mileages and VIN all correlate
will_ said:
There's nothing in the Data Protection Act to preclude it, as it isn't personal data. The government even give public acces to information which is akin to service history in respect of the mot history of a vehicle.
Dealers often rely on the DPA to say that they can't provide copies of invoices, which is correct, albeit that anonymised invoices could be provided without breach.
Like Sarnie, I have done this on many occasions without any problem. BMW even have a premium rate phone line to provide this information!
MOT pass is information owned by DVLA. As we know, the Government makes one set of rules for itself and another for us.Dealers often rely on the DPA to say that they can't provide copies of invoices, which is correct, albeit that anonymised invoices could be provided without breach.
Like Sarnie, I have done this on many occasions without any problem. BMW even have a premium rate phone line to provide this information!
You say that service history does not comprise personal data. If it relates to something that, at the time of asking, is your personal property, it is hard to see why it would not be personal.
Devil's advocate:
If I came into a dealer from whom someone had just purchased a new car, and for no better reason than perverse curiosity I asked the dealer how much finance was outstanding on that car, would the dealer be allowed to disclose it?
Is a burglar alarm installer allowed to disclose to a third party the security set-up in someone's house?
flemke said:
MOT pass is information owned by DVLA. As we know, the Government makes one set of rules for itself and another for us.
You say that service history does not comprise personal data. If it relates to something that, at the time of asking, is your personal property, it is hard to see why it would not be personal.
Devil's advocate:
If I came into a dealer from whom someone had just purchased a new car, and for no better reason than perverse curiosity I asked the dealer how much finance was outstanding on that car, would the dealer be allowed to disclose it?
Is a burglar alarm installer allowed to disclose to a third party the security set-up in someone's house?
As usual, it depends.You say that service history does not comprise personal data. If it relates to something that, at the time of asking, is your personal property, it is hard to see why it would not be personal.
Devil's advocate:
If I came into a dealer from whom someone had just purchased a new car, and for no better reason than perverse curiosity I asked the dealer how much finance was outstanding on that car, would the dealer be allowed to disclose it?
Is a burglar alarm installer allowed to disclose to a third party the security set-up in someone's house?
The DPA is primarily focused on data which identifies individuals. It is not a straightforward bit of legislation to understand and implement, and there are inevitable grey areas. But, for example, a registration number, whilst belonging to your personal property, may not be "personal" data, and the service history may therefore not identify an individual and could, in theory, be released in a redacted form.
In theory you may be able to obtain details of finance outstanding on a car (but you would need to know the finance provider). Indeed, it is not unusual (as I understand it) for dealers to pay finance off directly on part-exchanges, so that information is presumably not considered to be identifying data by those who hold it (and are better placed than I am to comment). As to a burglar alarm company, it would be difficult to see how that information would be able to be passed to a third party without identifying data being included, but I suppose it is possible. Of course there are plenty of good reasons why they would decline to do so, but the DPA may (or may not) be one of them.
will_ said:
flemke said:
MOT pass is information owned by DVLA. As we know, the Government makes one set of rules for itself and another for us.
You say that service history does not comprise personal data. If it relates to something that, at the time of asking, is your personal property, it is hard to see why it would not be personal.
Devil's advocate:
If I came into a dealer from whom someone had just purchased a new car, and for no better reason than perverse curiosity I asked the dealer how much finance was outstanding on that car, would the dealer be allowed to disclose it?
Is a burglar alarm installer allowed to disclose to a third party the security set-up in someone's house?
As usual, it depends.You say that service history does not comprise personal data. If it relates to something that, at the time of asking, is your personal property, it is hard to see why it would not be personal.
Devil's advocate:
If I came into a dealer from whom someone had just purchased a new car, and for no better reason than perverse curiosity I asked the dealer how much finance was outstanding on that car, would the dealer be allowed to disclose it?
Is a burglar alarm installer allowed to disclose to a third party the security set-up in someone's house?
The DPA is primarily focused on data which identifies individuals. It is not a straightforward bit of legislation to understand and implement, and there are inevitable grey areas. But, for example, a registration number, whilst belonging to your personal property, may not be "personal" data, and the service history may therefore not identify an individual and could, in theory, be released in a redacted form.
In theory you may be able to obtain details of finance outstanding on a car (but you would need to know the finance provider). Indeed, it is not unusual (as I understand it) for dealers to pay finance off directly on part-exchanges, so that information is presumably not considered to be identifying data by those who hold it (and are better placed than I am to comment). As to a burglar alarm company, it would be difficult to see how that information would be able to be passed to a third party without identifying data being included, but I suppose it is possible. Of course there are plenty of good reasons why they would decline to do so, but the DPA may (or may not) be one of them.
When I think of some of the utterly anodyne situations in which "Data Protection" has been invoked, precluding me from doing something which another person has asked me to do as a favour to them, it beggars belief that a complete stranger could - as a hypothetical example - see me climbing into a Ford, reg # AB12 CDE, then go to Dagenham Ford, ask, "Could you tell me the service history and finance status of AB12 CDE?", and be told, "No probs, just give us a mo."
As I read the rules, the focus appears to be on data that could be used to identify an individual. It is not clear why the rules are expressed in that way. If the identity of the person is already known - which is often and I daresay usually the case, especially when a third party has something dubious in mind - then the objection must be made backwards. "The information might have been used to identify the person, except that the person was already identified, which was why those particular data were being sought in the first place."
The service history of a car is rarely important, but, on the other hand, except in the case of an active sales negotiation, it is hard to see how it would be anyone else's effing business. If I learned that a dealer had disclosed that information about my car to a third party without my consent, that dealer would not be seeing me again, and no doubt countless other people would react similarly.
Always fighting for my privacy these days but if someone wants to check if the 5 stamps in the BMW service book were supplied by WHSmith or Sytner then it seems fair enough? Data on oil changes isn't very personal and of little interest unless you are selling a car to an interested party? However they shouldn't be getting your purchase deal details or mobile number or credit card number so maybe you are right if there are no guarantees?
flemke said:
When I think of some of the utterly anodyne situations in which "Data Protection" has been invoked, precluding me from doing something which another person has asked me to do as a favour to them, it beggars belief that a complete stranger could - as a hypothetical example - see me climbing into a Ford, reg # AB12 CDE, then go to Dagenham Ford, ask, "Could you tell me the service history and finance status of AB12 CDE?", and be told, "No probs, just give us a mo."
Indeed, often inaccurately. What they really mean is they don't wish to go to the bother of doing something, but don't want to say so, and therefore instead rely on something everyone can hate - "red tape".flemke said:
As I read the rules, the focus appears to be on data that could be used to identify an individual. It is not clear why the rules are expressed in that way. If the identity of the person is already known - which is often and I daresay usually the case, especially when a third party has something dubious in mind - then the objection must be made backwards. "The information might have been used to identify the person, except that the person was already identified, which was why those particular data were being sought in the first place."
I could only speculate, but if you don't know to whom some "information" belongs, does it really matter what that information is? Of course you may, or may not, know the identity of the person (for example) to whom a car belongs, but that's not to do with the DPA. There are some types of information which are deemed to be "sensitive" and have greater protection - car service history is not one of them.flemke said:
The service history of a car is rarely important, but, on the other hand, except in the case of an active sales negotiation, it is hard to see how it would be anyone else's effing business. If I learned that a dealer had disclosed that information about my car to a third party without my consent, that dealer would not be seeing me again, and no doubt countless other people would react similarly.
Well indeed, which is why some are reluctant to do it. On the other hand, what really is the harm? Do you strongly object, for example, that I can look your car up and see the mileage at the last MoT? Or that it might have had some advisories or failures in the past?The vast majority of relevant matters from a service history perspective relate to when a car is up for sale, in which case the purchaser is likely already to have seen (for example) the V5, which is of far more "interest" to a third party with nefarious purposes than the service history.
It's probably worth bearing in mind that there's no obligation on the dealer to reveal such information - but there may be nothing, from a legislative perspective, to preclude it.
Ken Figenus said:
Always fighting for my privacy these days but if someone wants to check if the 5 stamps in the BMW service book were supplied by WHSmith or Sytner then it seems fair enough? Data on oil changes isn't very personal and of little interest unless you are selling a car to an interested party? However they shouldn't be getting your purchase deal details or mobile number or credit card number so maybe you are right if there are no guarantees?
Agreed, but there are so many scammers and fraudsters about these days that it seems daft that the details of one's commercial transactions should be available for the asking. As unimportant as they may be to the owner, they ought to be no business whatever of the third party's.
From experience I've found that some manufacturers/dealers erroneously quote DPA but many will willingly provide the information pertinent to the car, but obviously nothing to do with the owner, which is fine. Its the car i'm wanting to verify not the owner.
Sometimes I've been asked for the VIN number as cars can [sometimes often] change their registration number. This again doesn't cause a problem as a seller knowing you're wanting to verify the cars authenticity will usually provide it so that you can carry out an HPI check (but you can also read it through the windscreen).
On occasions dealers say they want to check that the owner is happy before releasing the information, as i experienced in this case, and up until now I've been very relaxed to allow them to do so before calling me back.
Going forward I'll be a little more careful about tying things up with the seller first!
Its interesting to note that you can get a full MOT history with just the reg number and with reg and VIN numbers (both usually visible from merely viewing the car) an HPI report detailing registration date, number of previous owners, previous reg numbers, whether outstanding finance, whether 'an insurance right-off' or ever had a colour change.
All of the above information freely available without the owner knowing anything about it.....but if you want to know whether it was serviced....oh no DPA says we're not allowed to tell you, so say 'some' dealers(?)
I'm happy for them to say its their 'company policy', but erroneously blaming DPA is a bit annoying, more likely they're too lazy/busy and don't want to admit it.
Sometimes I've been asked for the VIN number as cars can [sometimes often] change their registration number. This again doesn't cause a problem as a seller knowing you're wanting to verify the cars authenticity will usually provide it so that you can carry out an HPI check (but you can also read it through the windscreen).
On occasions dealers say they want to check that the owner is happy before releasing the information, as i experienced in this case, and up until now I've been very relaxed to allow them to do so before calling me back.
Going forward I'll be a little more careful about tying things up with the seller first!
Its interesting to note that you can get a full MOT history with just the reg number and with reg and VIN numbers (both usually visible from merely viewing the car) an HPI report detailing registration date, number of previous owners, previous reg numbers, whether outstanding finance, whether 'an insurance right-off' or ever had a colour change.
All of the above information freely available without the owner knowing anything about it.....but if you want to know whether it was serviced....oh no DPA says we're not allowed to tell you, so say 'some' dealers(?)
I'm happy for them to say its their 'company policy', but erroneously blaming DPA is a bit annoying, more likely they're too lazy/busy and don't want to admit it.
Edited by 100 IAN on Sunday 24th January 21:23
will_ said:
Well indeed, which is why some are reluctant to do it. On the other hand, what really is the harm? Do you strongly object, for example, that I can look your car up and see the mileage at the last MoT? Or that it might have had some advisories or failures in the past?
As a matter of fact, yes.A couple of years ago I had dropped off an older car at an MOT test station, then returned at the end of the day to collect it. When I returned, I was astonished to be informed that it had failed. The tester had left for the day, so I could not pursue it with him. All I knew was that it had failed because, according to the report, the rear fog light was "not working".
It turned out that the fog light had not gone on simply because the tester had not known how to actuate it (you don't rotate the knob, you pull it out). The light was actually working fine.
Although I have no desire to sell the car, if I did choose to sell it I can imagine someone looking at an on-line MOT history and thinking, "Hmmm, failed an MOT - maybe this car has not been that carefully maintained after all."
As long as we are dealing with car-related issues, which I think we'd agree are not all that important except here on Pistonheads [
], for me one of the worst examples of government-supported breach of privacy is the DVLA's giving out RK's details to any I. M. Dodgy Parking Enforcement Ltd that asks for them. Indefensible. flemke said:
It turned out that the fog light had not gone on simply because the tester had not known how to actuate it (you don't rotate the knob, you pull it out). The light was actually working fine.
Although I have no desire to sell the car, if I did choose to sell it I can imagine someone looking at an on-line MOT history and thinking, "Hmmm, failed an MOT - maybe this car has not been that carefully maintained after all."
Whilst I don't strongly object to information like this being available, I must say I was quite surprising to see the level of freely available detail on cars which have been MOT'ed. Although I have no desire to sell the car, if I did choose to sell it I can imagine someone looking at an on-line MOT history and thinking, "Hmmm, failed an MOT - maybe this car has not been that carefully maintained after all."
It reminded me of when the Land Registry started releasing data publicly on historical house price sales, and which suddenly became instantly and easily at everyone's finger tips.
And I do think it means people should be aware of it, just in case it creates the wrong impression when the car is sold.
For example, I was experimenting recently in order to get familiar with the system by looking at the MOT history my father-in-law's car.
He was very surprised to see the level detail which had been reported. Reading the list of points to him even he agreed it sounded bad, and this is on a car which I happen to know has been very well maintained indeed.
flemke said:
...for me one of the worst examples of government-supported breach of privacy is the DVLA's giving out RK's details to any I. M. Dodgy Parking Enforcement Ltd that asks for them. Indefensible.
Any Tom, Dick, Harry or indeed Juan, Zoltan or Igor will be able to get them too from April 2017... Where does nice McLaren/Aston live? I have friend buyer in Volgograd...Ken Figenus said:
flemke said:
...for me one of the worst examples of government-supported breach of privacy is the DVLA's giving out RK's details to any I. M. Dodgy Parking Enforcement Ltd that asks for them. Indefensible.
Any Tom, Dick, Harry or indeed Juan, Zoltan or Igor will be able to get them too from April 2017... Where does nice McLaren/Aston live? I have friend buyer in Volgograd...
WTF is wrong with these people?
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