Discussion
To fund a company that I built......
Anyway - back on track - I find it very disappointing that there appears to be so much ill will towards McLaren. I applaud the British car company making pretty special cars, building a new company from a standing start, creating a new platform and building a desirable luxury brand.
I say bring on the 675LT Spider. I cancelled my orders for the coupe, which I think I might have have a mistake.
So the question is are you upset because the coupe is sold out? Or do you want the car to be built in such low numbers that no-one gets to own one? Or does bringing out a separate model, admittedly a derivative of the 675LT, which in itself is a derivative of the 650, upset you because you see it as extension of the 500 Coupes? If you don't like it then cancel your order. I'm sure there will be other people to replace you.
You have to question whether the car is being bought on merit to drive around tracks or for resale value.....
Must pop in McLaren London this weekend .....
Anyway - back on track - I find it very disappointing that there appears to be so much ill will towards McLaren. I applaud the British car company making pretty special cars, building a new company from a standing start, creating a new platform and building a desirable luxury brand.
I say bring on the 675LT Spider. I cancelled my orders for the coupe, which I think I might have have a mistake.
So the question is are you upset because the coupe is sold out? Or do you want the car to be built in such low numbers that no-one gets to own one? Or does bringing out a separate model, admittedly a derivative of the 675LT, which in itself is a derivative of the 650, upset you because you see it as extension of the 500 Coupes? If you don't like it then cancel your order. I'm sure there will be other people to replace you.
You have to question whether the car is being bought on merit to drive around tracks or for resale value.....
Must pop in McLaren London this weekend .....
flemke said:
In the young life of McLaren Automotive, they have shadowed Ferrari in so many ways (market segments, pricing, track-biased version of the basic model, FXX-type programme, GT3 racing programme, "limited" editions that sprout additional, "different" editions). It would almost be surprising if McLaren were not to follow Ferrari's lead (with the 430 Scuderia Spider and 458 Speciale A) by introducing a spyder version of the 675LT.
Saying that, and especially as McLaren irritated some loyal customers by announcing the P1 GTR just after they had sold all the "ultimate" P1s, some who have ordered LTs might be rather ticked off if McLaren were to announce a spider version of the "limited edition" LT soon after the order book for the LT coupe had been filled.
Surely some of the people who have ordered LTs would prefer a spider if one were to be built and, if given the choice, would have ordered a spider and not ordered a coupe.
Perhaps worse, surely most of the people who have ordered LTs would consider a spider version to compromise the value of a build-run "limit" of 500, and there is no doubt that the limit of 500 influenced the purchase decision of some customers and in addition helped McLaren to achieve premium pricing for the car.
IINM, roughly 75-80% of normal 650S orders are for the spider version. What would happen to the value of LT coupes if there were a spider version of it? Yes, the LT's ostensible primary purpose, track driving, is more in keeping with a coupe design, but that distinction is greatly mitigated by the fact that, unlike cars with metal chassis, the spider version of the 650S does not compromise stiffness and only slightly compromises weight. Presumably the same would apply to a 675LT spider.
Insult would be added to injury if, were there to be an LT spider, it were to be announced before some clients had even taken delivery of their coupes. I believe that, more than a year from now, they will still be delivering new LTs.
Yes, strictly speaking a coupe and a spider are different things, and McLaren will be making only 500 coupes, but, if they were to announce a spider anytime soon, I know a lot of people would feel that McLaren were followng another Ferrari practice, and not a good one.
Ferrari have been able to get away with shamelessly exploiting their customers because their brand is big enough, and overall demand for their products is strong enough (and, in fairness, because their products at least in recent years have been good enough).
We all would like McLaren Automotive to enjoy the commercial success that Ferrari have done, but it will take a considerable time before that is possible. In the course of their getting there, I think we would like them to live by a higher standard than their Italian counterparts typically do.
Written on May 23. So I get where you're coming from.....Saying that, and especially as McLaren irritated some loyal customers by announcing the P1 GTR just after they had sold all the "ultimate" P1s, some who have ordered LTs might be rather ticked off if McLaren were to announce a spider version of the "limited edition" LT soon after the order book for the LT coupe had been filled.
Surely some of the people who have ordered LTs would prefer a spider if one were to be built and, if given the choice, would have ordered a spider and not ordered a coupe.
Perhaps worse, surely most of the people who have ordered LTs would consider a spider version to compromise the value of a build-run "limit" of 500, and there is no doubt that the limit of 500 influenced the purchase decision of some customers and in addition helped McLaren to achieve premium pricing for the car.
IINM, roughly 75-80% of normal 650S orders are for the spider version. What would happen to the value of LT coupes if there were a spider version of it? Yes, the LT's ostensible primary purpose, track driving, is more in keeping with a coupe design, but that distinction is greatly mitigated by the fact that, unlike cars with metal chassis, the spider version of the 650S does not compromise stiffness and only slightly compromises weight. Presumably the same would apply to a 675LT spider.
Insult would be added to injury if, were there to be an LT spider, it were to be announced before some clients had even taken delivery of their coupes. I believe that, more than a year from now, they will still be delivering new LTs.
Yes, strictly speaking a coupe and a spider are different things, and McLaren will be making only 500 coupes, but, if they were to announce a spider anytime soon, I know a lot of people would feel that McLaren were followng another Ferrari practice, and not a good one.
Ferrari have been able to get away with shamelessly exploiting their customers because their brand is big enough, and overall demand for their products is strong enough (and, in fairness, because their products at least in recent years have been good enough).
We all would like McLaren Automotive to enjoy the commercial success that Ferrari have done, but it will take a considerable time before that is possible. In the course of their getting there, I think we would like them to live by a higher standard than their Italian counterparts typically do.
Anjum said:
applaud the British car company making pretty special cars, building a new company from a standing start, creating a new platform and building a desirable luxury brand.
So the question is are you upset because the coupe is sold out? Or do you want the car to be built in such low numbers that no-one gets to own one? Or does bringing out a separate model, admittedly a derivative of the 675LT, which in itself is a derivative of the 650, upset you because you see it as extension of the 500 Coupes? If you don't like it then cancel your order...
You have to question whether the car is being bought on merit to drive around tracks or for resale value.....
Spot on! Sounds like we at risk of amazing drivers cars being wasted on people who don't put driving high on the agenda. Some people need a reality check!So the question is are you upset because the coupe is sold out? Or do you want the car to be built in such low numbers that no-one gets to own one? Or does bringing out a separate model, admittedly a derivative of the 675LT, which in itself is a derivative of the 650, upset you because you see it as extension of the 500 Coupes? If you don't like it then cancel your order...
You have to question whether the car is being bought on merit to drive around tracks or for resale value.....
Anjum said:
To fund a company that I built......
Anyway - back on track - I find it very disappointing that there appears to be so much ill will towards McLaren. I applaud the British car company making pretty special cars, building a new company from a standing start, creating a new platform and building a desirable luxury brand.
I say bring on the 675LT Spider. I cancelled my orders for the coupe, which I think I might have have a mistake.
So the question is are you upset because the coupe is sold out? Or do you want the car to be built in such low numbers that no-one gets to own one? Or does bringing out a separate model, admittedly a derivative of the 675LT, which in itself is a derivative of the 650, upset you because you see it as extension of the 500 Coupes? If you don't like it then cancel your order. I'm sure there will be other people to replace you.
You have to question whether the car is being bought on merit to drive around tracks or for resale value.....
Must pop in McLaren London this weekend .....
Some of us had to commit to final spec for our coupes before the rumours of a spider arose. Anyway - back on track - I find it very disappointing that there appears to be so much ill will towards McLaren. I applaud the British car company making pretty special cars, building a new company from a standing start, creating a new platform and building a desirable luxury brand.
I say bring on the 675LT Spider. I cancelled my orders for the coupe, which I think I might have have a mistake.
So the question is are you upset because the coupe is sold out? Or do you want the car to be built in such low numbers that no-one gets to own one? Or does bringing out a separate model, admittedly a derivative of the 675LT, which in itself is a derivative of the 650, upset you because you see it as extension of the 500 Coupes? If you don't like it then cancel your order. I'm sure there will be other people to replace you.
You have to question whether the car is being bought on merit to drive around tracks or for resale value.....
Must pop in McLaren London this weekend .....
Part of the problem is that they priced the coupe as if it were truly limited to 500 units. If they were to make a 10% retroactive price cut on the coupes, the price would be fair for the prospective, as opposed to the pretend, build-run.
By the way, some people have questioned whether McLaren 'really' promised to build only 500 675LTs.
McLaren Automotive CEO Mike Flewitt said:
In the supercar series, where we have the 650S today, we are introducing a car called the 675LT, of which we will exclusively produce only 500 units. The 675LT is a very focused drivers' car, which is only available as a coupe, and promises more power and a track-orientated suspension
The above is from an early 2015 interview here:http://www.luxury-insider.com/features/2015/interv...
Only the most desperate sophist would claim that this statement was not meant to lead the reader to believe that there would be no more than 500 675LTs, and that they would all be coupes.
In the interview Flewitt also states that, of P1 GTRs, they would "only produce a very low volume of about 35 cars", which was another false statement.
The 675 LTS will be a lovely car too, if that model is produced.
One of the original features of these cars was the CF tub and it's ability to offer very similar rigidity to a mclaren in coupe or spider form. Surely there can be no surprise that a spider would be offered...maybe so... if they choose to produce the car. I am not a lawyer, but do conversations with journalists constitute part of a binding contract with any prospective buyer?
I have to say that the LT is a beautiful car in its own right. Mr Shmee's blue one does look very special and spectacular. Not to mention the outstanding reviews that it has already received, I can't imagine that it would let anyone down as a performance vehicle.
You are very lucky chaps to own one. The kids who have posters of these cars on their wall(paper) and dream of driving these cars would be very sad to think of prospective buyers only considering these as just another asset class. There are so few around as to be unique anyway in any super series form.
One of the original features of these cars was the CF tub and it's ability to offer very similar rigidity to a mclaren in coupe or spider form. Surely there can be no surprise that a spider would be offered...maybe so... if they choose to produce the car. I am not a lawyer, but do conversations with journalists constitute part of a binding contract with any prospective buyer?
I have to say that the LT is a beautiful car in its own right. Mr Shmee's blue one does look very special and spectacular. Not to mention the outstanding reviews that it has already received, I can't imagine that it would let anyone down as a performance vehicle.
You are very lucky chaps to own one. The kids who have posters of these cars on their wall(paper) and dream of driving these cars would be very sad to think of prospective buyers only considering these as just another asset class. There are so few around as to be unique anyway in any super series form.
Just to calm the frustrations of what appears to be the biggest first world problem I've read about for a while here's a picture of Tim's car which I'm sure re won't mind being reposted. Like a nutter he decided to drive it through snow and torrential rain on his first day - epic....
If you happen to be one of the 500 just count yourselves very lucky indeed.
Flemke - would you say your current frustration is more of a culmination? You've obviously been very close to the company for a long time and is this the cherry on top after the P1/P1 GTR incident?
If you happen to be one of the 500 just count yourselves very lucky indeed.
Flemke - would you say your current frustration is more of a culmination? You've obviously been very close to the company for a long time and is this the cherry on top after the P1/P1 GTR incident?
Petrus1983 said:
Just to calm the frustrations of what appears to be the biggest first world problem I've read about for a while here's a picture of Tim's car which I'm sure re won't mind being reposted. Like a nutter he decided to drive it through snow and torrential rain on his first day - epic....
If you happen to be one of the 500 just count yourselves very lucky indeed.
Flemke - would you say your current frustration is more of a culmination? You've obviously been very close to the company for a long time and is this the cherry on top after the P1/P1 GTR incident?
I love that colour of the 675 - the FF is a lovely colour but does really show how special that cerrulean blue is.... not a bad mix for a weekend car and daily driver.If you happen to be one of the 500 just count yourselves very lucky indeed.
Flemke - would you say your current frustration is more of a culmination? You've obviously been very close to the company for a long time and is this the cherry on top after the P1/P1 GTR incident?
99.9% of the population would love to be in this predicament.
If you are in that position to buy one of these cars just get it and rag the tits off it. Forget about how much it will be worth in 18 months time.
The 675LT seems to be Mclarens best car so far driving wise.
So drive it. Flemke, I feel this is a case of posting as yours has not arrived yet and so you are thinking too much. You like driving cars as your F1 has shown, so don't get too dischuffed, just wait and then drive it and have a good time.
If you are in that position to buy one of these cars just get it and rag the tits off it. Forget about how much it will be worth in 18 months time.
The 675LT seems to be Mclarens best car so far driving wise.
So drive it. Flemke, I feel this is a case of posting as yours has not arrived yet and so you are thinking too much. You like driving cars as your F1 has shown, so don't get too dischuffed, just wait and then drive it and have a good time.
Petrus1983 said:
Just to calm the frustrations of what appears to be the biggest first world problem I've read about for a while
You're not kidding are you ? I have always loved cars. After 30 years of driving I have a Yaris, an Astra estate and an MX5 on the drive. Not quite Athena poster material I guess, though they cover all bases practical wise for week days and weekends. I don't complain. I just get on with it. Though I can't live the lifestyle i like reading about other people who can. Great stuff, so these sort of ponderings puzzle me.
Fancy swapping?
Edited by Gandahar on Saturday 17th October 21:20
Petrus1983 said:
Flemke - would you say your current frustration is more of a culmination? You've obviously been very close to the company for a long time and is this the cherry on top after the P1/P1 GTR incident?
Definitely. A single misjudgment of this sort is excusable. When the guilty party not only fails to learn from the mistake but shortly thereafter repeats it, ignorance is no longer an excuse.For an organisation that is supposed to have loads of really good engineers, McLaren seem to be short of people who are able to count.
I actually think that what they have done with the P1 has been worse than the 675LT situation. The P1 GTR gimmick was bad enough, but now taking P1 prototype chassis, turning them into immaculate, fresh-from-production normal customer P1s and thus adding to the "hard limit" of 375 units is complete f
king bullst.flemke said:
Definitely. A single misjudgment of this sort is excusable. When the guilty party not only fails to learn from the mistake but shortly thereafter repeats it, ignorance is no longer an excuse.
For an organisation that is supposed to have loads of really good engineers, McLaren seem to be short of people who are able to count.
I actually think that what they have done with the P1 has been worse than the 675LT situation. The P1 GTR gimmick was bad enough, but now taking P1 prototype chassis, turning them into immaculate, fresh-from-production normal customer P1s and thus adding to the "hard limit" of 375 units is complete fking bullst.
I get your annoyance, but in comparison to say Ferrari, Mclaren are still far better in my eyes of customer relations... take the 599 aperta - sir there will only be 80 produced, when in fact Ferrari life can pin point at least 130.... and surely considering those numbers that would be more annoying than the 675LT situation? For an organisation that is supposed to have loads of really good engineers, McLaren seem to be short of people who are able to count.
I actually think that what they have done with the P1 has been worse than the 675LT situation. The P1 GTR gimmick was bad enough, but now taking P1 prototype chassis, turning them into immaculate, fresh-from-production normal customer P1s and thus adding to the "hard limit" of 375 units is complete f
king bullst.mattf93 said:
flemke said:
Definitely. A single misjudgment of this sort is excusable. When the guilty party not only fails to learn from the mistake but shortly thereafter repeats it, ignorance is no longer an excuse.
For an organisation that is supposed to have loads of really good engineers, McLaren seem to be short of people who are able to count.
I actually think that what they have done with the P1 has been worse than the 675LT situation. The P1 GTR gimmick was bad enough, but now taking P1 prototype chassis, turning them into immaculate, fresh-from-production normal customer P1s and thus adding to the "hard limit" of 375 units is complete fking bullst.
I get your annoyance, but in comparison to say Ferrari, Mclaren are still far better in my eyes of customer relations... take the 599 aperta - sir there will only be 80 produced, when in fact Ferrari life can pin point at least 130.... and surely considering those numbers that would be more annoying than the 675LT situation? For an organisation that is supposed to have loads of really good engineers, McLaren seem to be short of people who are able to count.
I actually think that what they have done with the P1 has been worse than the 675LT situation. The P1 GTR gimmick was bad enough, but now taking P1 prototype chassis, turning them into immaculate, fresh-from-production normal customer P1s and thus adding to the "hard limit" of 375 units is complete f
king bullst.As I wrote above, when you take into the account residuals, to date McLarens have cost a good bit more than Ferraris, for what have been essentially the same cars in the same niches.
Folks who buy McLarens have been willing to pay more for the same thing because we thought that the McLaren organisation had a lot more integrity than Ferrari did.
We wanted to be associated with an organisation that we admired and respected. If that cost extra, it was worth it.
Unfortunately, McLaren Automotive's behaviour in this and several other instances suggests that it is no longer worthy of admiration and respect. Its most senior people (the ones who have initiated or approved their objectionable behaviour) appear to be perfectly happy engaging in the same sharp practice, misleading promotion and customer manipulation that some other firms do.
Were he alive today, I cannot believe that Bruce McLaren would approve of the chicanery that McLaren Automotive have perpetrated in his name.
If they expect to have a sustainable enterprise, the people who run McLaren Automotive need to figure out very soon that loyalty is a two-way street. Your clients are not going to be loyal to you, when you are disloyal to them.
flemke said:
mattf93 said:
flemke said:
Definitely. A single misjudgment of this sort is excusable. When the guilty party not only fails to learn from the mistake but shortly thereafter repeats it, ignorance is no longer an excuse.
For an organisation that is supposed to have loads of really good engineers, McLaren seem to be short of people who are able to count.
I actually think that what they have done with the P1 has been worse than the 675LT situation. The P1 GTR gimmick was bad enough, but now taking P1 prototype chassis, turning them into immaculate, fresh-from-production normal customer P1s and thus adding to the "hard limit" of 375 units is complete fking bullst.
I get your annoyance, but in comparison to say Ferrari, Mclaren are still far better in my eyes of customer relations... take the 599 aperta - sir there will only be 80 produced, when in fact Ferrari life can pin point at least 130.... and surely considering those numbers that would be more annoying than the 675LT situation? For an organisation that is supposed to have loads of really good engineers, McLaren seem to be short of people who are able to count.
I actually think that what they have done with the P1 has been worse than the 675LT situation. The P1 GTR gimmick was bad enough, but now taking P1 prototype chassis, turning them into immaculate, fresh-from-production normal customer P1s and thus adding to the "hard limit" of 375 units is complete f
king bullst.As I wrote above, when you take into the account residuals, to date McLarens have cost a good bit more than Ferraris, for what have been essentially the same cars in the same niches.
Folks who buy McLarens have been willing to pay more for the same thing because we thought that the McLaren organisation had a lot more integrity than Ferrari did.
We wanted to be associated with an organisation that we admired and respected. If that cost extra, it was worth it.
Unfortunately, McLaren Automotive's behaviour in this and several other instances suggests that it is no longer worthy of admiration and respect. Its most senior people (the ones who have initiated or approved their objectionable behaviour) appear to be perfectly happy engaging in the same sharp practice, misleading promotion and customer manipulation that some other firms do.
Were he alive today, I cannot believe that Bruce McLaren would approve of the chicanery that McLaren Automotive have perpetrated in his name.
If they expect to have a sustainable enterprise, the people who run McLaren Automotive need to figure out very soon that loyalty is a two-way street. Your clients are not going to be loyal to you, when you are disloyal to them.
flemke said:
Yes, in this regard Ferrari are bad, but McLaren are supposed to have more integrity than Ferrari. They certainly presume that they do.
As I wrote above, when you take into the account residuals, to date McLarens have cost a good bit more than Ferraris, for what have been essentially the same cars in the same niches.
Folks who buy McLarens have been willing to pay more for the same thing because we thought that the McLaren organisation had a lot more integrity than Ferrari did.
We wanted to be associated with an organisation that we admired and respected. If that cost extra, it was worth it.
Unfortunately, McLaren Automotive's behaviour in this and several other instances suggests that it is no longer worthy of admiration and respect. Its most senior people (the ones who have initiated or approved their objectionable behaviour) appear to be perfectly happy engaging in the same sharp practice, misleading promotion and customer manipulation that some other firms do.
Were he alive today, I cannot believe that Bruce McLaren would approve of the chicanery that McLaren Automotive have perpetrated in his name.
If they expect to have a sustainable enterprise, the people who run McLaren Automotive need to figure out very soon that loyalty is a two-way street. Your clients are not going to be loyal to you, when you are disloyal to them.
I'm not motivated to buy a car from them. The car may be the best ever but I don't like the way the company conduct themselves. As I wrote above, when you take into the account residuals, to date McLarens have cost a good bit more than Ferraris, for what have been essentially the same cars in the same niches.
Folks who buy McLarens have been willing to pay more for the same thing because we thought that the McLaren organisation had a lot more integrity than Ferrari did.
We wanted to be associated with an organisation that we admired and respected. If that cost extra, it was worth it.
Unfortunately, McLaren Automotive's behaviour in this and several other instances suggests that it is no longer worthy of admiration and respect. Its most senior people (the ones who have initiated or approved their objectionable behaviour) appear to be perfectly happy engaging in the same sharp practice, misleading promotion and customer manipulation that some other firms do.
Were he alive today, I cannot believe that Bruce McLaren would approve of the chicanery that McLaren Automotive have perpetrated in his name.
If they expect to have a sustainable enterprise, the people who run McLaren Automotive need to figure out very soon that loyalty is a two-way street. Your clients are not going to be loyal to you, when you are disloyal to them.
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