Discussion
isaldiri said:
stain said:
I'm not motivated to buy a car from them. The car may be the best ever but I don't like the way the company conduct themselves.
says a Ferrari owner... 
For a Ferrari owner to criticise how McLaren conduct themselves is, as you imply, a bit like Nigel Mansell criticising Lewis Hamilton for being egotistical.
flemke said:
isaldiri said:
stain said:
I'm not motivated to buy a car from them. The car may be the best ever but I don't like the way the company conduct themselves.
says a Ferrari owner... For a Ferrari owner to criticise how McLaren conduct themselves is, as you imply, a bit like Nigel Mansell criticising Lewis Hamilton for being egotistical.
Correct - I own a Ferrari amongst other things though not a brand new one. I was simply agreeing with flemke that McLaren came to the party needing to be different to tease people out of their Ferraris. I want the company to succeed (they are British and I have friends who work there) but my test drive, and the fact a new model comes out every 5 mins doesn't inspire me. For the record Morgan also know how to piss their customers off but that is for another thread.
Sorry guys, have I missed something here, but have McLaren officially announced the 675LT Spider or is this just wild speculation? I keep hearing from various parties be it dealers or whatever who all have potential skin in the game but not from McLaren themselves.
Is it silly to think that McLaren might have let slip the possibility of this car to test the reaction of the market before committing either way, that way they could save face if they feel the market is going against them by keeping to their original promise????
Is it silly to think that McLaren might have let slip the possibility of this car to test the reaction of the market before committing either way, that way they could save face if they feel the market is going against them by keeping to their original promise????
stain said:
Correct - I own a Ferrari amongst other things though not a brand new one. I was simply agreeing with flemke that McLaren came to the party needing to be different to tease people out of their Ferraris. I want the company to succeed (they are British and I have friends who work there) but my test drive, and the fact a new model comes out every 5 mins doesn't inspire me. For the record Morgan also know how to piss their customers off but that is for another thread.
Is it a problem that "a new model comes out every five minutes"?The 12c->650S succession was handled badly, which AIUI was initially a consequence of their bringing out the 12C too early. Having made that mistake, McLaren compounded it by bringing out another "new" model too early, rather than simply improving the 12C. It is my impression that they brought out a new model in order to align it with the P1.
Since then, however, I don't see how new models in themselves have been a problem. The 540/570 is a different car, which McLaren always said they would be making, and would need to make.
The Le Mans and Can-Am are cosmetic variations on the basic theme. I think it's good to offer customers different choices, so long as they are not in conflict, as the 650S was, with other models. McLaren never said that the 650S coupe or spider would be pre-limited build-runs, and indeed no-one would have expected them to be pre-limited. All the Le Mans and Can-Am editions did was to give customers more choice.
I would submit that the problem with the P1GTR and 675LT spider is not that they are new models, but precisely the opposite - they are not new models. Rather, they are variations on original models, and came to light only after McLaren had promised that there would be no variations on those original models.
flemke said:
Is it a problem that "a new model comes out every five minutes"?
The 12c->650S succession was handled badly, which AIUI was initially a consequence of their bringing out the 12C too early. Having made that mistake, McLaren compounded it by bringing out another "new" model too early, rather than simply improving the 12C. It is my impression that they brought out a new model in order to align it with the P1.
Since then, however, I don't see how new models in themselves have been a problem. The 540/570 is a different car, which McLaren always said they would be making, and would need to make.
The Le Mans and Can-Am are cosmetic variations on the basic theme. I think it's good to offer customers different choices, so long as they are not in conflict, as the 650S was, with other models. McLaren never said that the 650S coupe or spider would be pre-limited build-runs, and indeed no-one would have expected them to be pre-limited. All the Le Mans and Can-Am editions did was to give customers more choice.
I would submit that the problem with the P1GTR and 675LT spider is not that they are new models, but precisely the opposite - they are not new models. Rather, they are variations on original models, and came to light only after McLaren had promised that there would be no variations on those original models.
Now that you mentioned it, that Le Mans 650 doesn't seem to be shifting...and at £275k seems seriously overpriced now compared to a 650s. I wonder whether we will be saying the same about the 675lt in 6 months time when they are in the classifieds for £300k...The 12c->650S succession was handled badly, which AIUI was initially a consequence of their bringing out the 12C too early. Having made that mistake, McLaren compounded it by bringing out another "new" model too early, rather than simply improving the 12C. It is my impression that they brought out a new model in order to align it with the P1.
Since then, however, I don't see how new models in themselves have been a problem. The 540/570 is a different car, which McLaren always said they would be making, and would need to make.
The Le Mans and Can-Am are cosmetic variations on the basic theme. I think it's good to offer customers different choices, so long as they are not in conflict, as the 650S was, with other models. McLaren never said that the 650S coupe or spider would be pre-limited build-runs, and indeed no-one would have expected them to be pre-limited. All the Le Mans and Can-Am editions did was to give customers more choice.
I would submit that the problem with the P1GTR and 675LT spider is not that they are new models, but precisely the opposite - they are not new models. Rather, they are variations on original models, and came to light only after McLaren had promised that there would be no variations on those original models.
TP321 said:
Now that you mentioned it, that Le Mans 650 doesn't seem to be shifting...and at £275k seems seriously overpriced now compared to a 650s. I wonder whether we will be saying the same about the 675lt in 6 months time when they are in the classifieds for £300k...
I would say extremely likely, even if the 675LT is a more appealing car then the kit car looking Le Mans edition.Especially with the 675LT spider :-) and the, then, soon to be announced 700S... Which is said to be a major move forward in terms of styling...
mb1 said:
I would say extremely likely, even if the 675LT is a more appealing car then the kit car looking Le Mans edition.
Especially with the 675LT spider :-) and the, then, soon to be announced 700S... Which is said to be a major move forward in terms of styling...
Yes i too have heard that the 650s replacement is a looker, and with 700bhp, just cant see how it will not be better than the 675ltEspecially with the 675LT spider :-) and the, then, soon to be announced 700S... Which is said to be a major move forward in terms of styling...
I get the sheer number of variations in posts on here along the lines of 'it will be a fabulous car, you are lucky to be able to afford one, even luckier to have got your hands on one, you should never buy new cars from an investment angle, so be happy & enjoy' but what such posters fail to understand is that if you can afford to spend £250k+ on a car, perhaps even because you can afford to buy such a car, you at the very least take potential depreciation into account
Most people who buy a car take on board at least an idea of what it will cost to run. Depreciation is just one of those factors. There is a difference between buying a car because you think you will make money on it and partly being able to justify the expense if you think it will hold it's own depreciationwise
The other issue is the whole trust issue - you make a promise, you break it, you'll always be remembered for it
I am afraid that Mclaren now, following what most people at the start thought would be different, now look little better than Ferrari. They will take many years to recover, if at all, from that reputation. I have friends who will take decades before they look at Mclaren again, just because of the way 12C launch was handled. I found the dealer experience to be no better than Ferrari so walked away from 12C soft top ownership and it's put me off ever going back. They have more recently just about persuaded me to come in and take a 650 out for a drive, but then cancelled both appointments - I'll not discuss a third one
I think perhaps one other issue some are overlooking is the difference between list prices & real world prices. As is often the case, the ltd ed version is not discounted but the regular version (in this case 650s) is available with steep discount. So to a potential buyer, the real world premium that has to be paid for a 675LT over a 650S is much more than the on-paper list price. For a buyer to be able to justify that huge premium, it helps to know the car is ltd in number. Once the promise over being a ltd edition (and being different to Ferrari) is broken, the number by which it is broken starts to lose relevance, it again comes back to principal & trust. The fact Mclaren are probably covered legally almost makes it worse for a buyer, because you start to feel you were deliberately misled, even if potentially you weren't (there is a strong chance surely that this track focussed car was never going to be a Spider but demand has simply swayed the factory who subsequently changed their mind)
Most people who buy a car take on board at least an idea of what it will cost to run. Depreciation is just one of those factors. There is a difference between buying a car because you think you will make money on it and partly being able to justify the expense if you think it will hold it's own depreciationwise
The other issue is the whole trust issue - you make a promise, you break it, you'll always be remembered for it
I am afraid that Mclaren now, following what most people at the start thought would be different, now look little better than Ferrari. They will take many years to recover, if at all, from that reputation. I have friends who will take decades before they look at Mclaren again, just because of the way 12C launch was handled. I found the dealer experience to be no better than Ferrari so walked away from 12C soft top ownership and it's put me off ever going back. They have more recently just about persuaded me to come in and take a 650 out for a drive, but then cancelled both appointments - I'll not discuss a third one
I think perhaps one other issue some are overlooking is the difference between list prices & real world prices. As is often the case, the ltd ed version is not discounted but the regular version (in this case 650s) is available with steep discount. So to a potential buyer, the real world premium that has to be paid for a 675LT over a 650S is much more than the on-paper list price. For a buyer to be able to justify that huge premium, it helps to know the car is ltd in number. Once the promise over being a ltd edition (and being different to Ferrari) is broken, the number by which it is broken starts to lose relevance, it again comes back to principal & trust. The fact Mclaren are probably covered legally almost makes it worse for a buyer, because you start to feel you were deliberately misled, even if potentially you weren't (there is a strong chance surely that this track focussed car was never going to be a Spider but demand has simply swayed the factory who subsequently changed their mind)
TP321 said:
mb1 said:
I would say extremely likely, even if the 675LT is a more appealing car then the kit car looking Le Mans edition.
Especially with the 675LT spider :-) and the, then, soon to be announced 700S... Which is said to be a major move forward in terms of styling...
Yes i too have heard that the 650s replacement is a looker, and with 700bhp, just cant see how it will not be better than the 675ltEspecially with the 675LT spider :-) and the, then, soon to be announced 700S... Which is said to be a major move forward in terms of styling...
Does that mean that a Turbo is "better" than the GT3RS?
The idea behind the GT3s has always been that the entire car was conceived and developed as a whole, for the narrow purpose of optimising one kind of driving at the expense of all other types of driving and car use.
We don't know yet what they will do with the 650's successor, nor do we have sufficient collective experience with the 675LT, to make any judgments as to which will be the "better" car.
jonby said:
I get the sheer number of variations in posts on here along the lines of 'it will be a fabulous car, you are lucky to be able to afford one, even luckier to have got your hands on one, you should never buy new cars from an investment angle, so be happy & enjoy' but what such posters fail to understand is that if you can afford to spend £250k+ on a car, perhaps even because you can afford to buy such a car, you at the very least take potential depreciation into account
Most people who buy a car take on board at least an idea of what it will cost to run. Depreciation is just one of those factors. There is a difference between buying a car because you think you will make money on it and partly being able to justify the expense if you think it will hold it's own depreciationwise
The other issue is the whole trust issue - you make a promise, you break it, you'll always be remembered for it
I am afraid that Mclaren now, following what most people at the start thought would be different, now look little better than Ferrari. They will take many years to recover, if at all, from that reputation. I have friends who will take decades before they look at Mclaren again, just because of the way 12C launch was handled. I found the dealer experience to be no better than Ferrari so walked away from 12C soft top ownership and it's put me off ever going back. They have more recently just about persuaded me to come in and take a 650 out for a drive, but then cancelled both appointments - I'll not discuss a third one
I think perhaps one other issue some are overlooking is the difference between list prices & real world prices. As is often the case, the ltd ed version is not discounted but the regular version (in this case 650s) is available with steep discount. So to a potential buyer, the real world premium that has to be paid for a 675LT over a 650S is much more than the on-paper list price. For a buyer to be able to justify that huge premium, it helps to know the car is ltd in number. Once the promise over being a ltd edition (and being different to Ferrari) is broken, the number by which it is broken starts to lose relevance, it again comes back to principal & trust. The fact Mclaren are probably covered legally almost makes it worse for a buyer, because you start to feel you were deliberately misled, even if potentially you weren't (there is a strong chance surely that this track focussed car was never going to be a Spider but demand has simply swayed the factory who subsequently changed their mind)
+1Most people who buy a car take on board at least an idea of what it will cost to run. Depreciation is just one of those factors. There is a difference between buying a car because you think you will make money on it and partly being able to justify the expense if you think it will hold it's own depreciationwise
The other issue is the whole trust issue - you make a promise, you break it, you'll always be remembered for it
I am afraid that Mclaren now, following what most people at the start thought would be different, now look little better than Ferrari. They will take many years to recover, if at all, from that reputation. I have friends who will take decades before they look at Mclaren again, just because of the way 12C launch was handled. I found the dealer experience to be no better than Ferrari so walked away from 12C soft top ownership and it's put me off ever going back. They have more recently just about persuaded me to come in and take a 650 out for a drive, but then cancelled both appointments - I'll not discuss a third one
I think perhaps one other issue some are overlooking is the difference between list prices & real world prices. As is often the case, the ltd ed version is not discounted but the regular version (in this case 650s) is available with steep discount. So to a potential buyer, the real world premium that has to be paid for a 675LT over a 650S is much more than the on-paper list price. For a buyer to be able to justify that huge premium, it helps to know the car is ltd in number. Once the promise over being a ltd edition (and being different to Ferrari) is broken, the number by which it is broken starts to lose relevance, it again comes back to principal & trust. The fact Mclaren are probably covered legally almost makes it worse for a buyer, because you start to feel you were deliberately misled, even if potentially you weren't (there is a strong chance surely that this track focussed car was never going to be a Spider but demand has simply swayed the factory who subsequently changed their mind)
Most 675lt coupe buyers have paid £300k for their car. Spider customers will pay £320k. Its a lot of money when you consider that a one year old 650s Spider can be bought for £170k: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
I just cant see how the 675lt is worth £300k. And when the P14 comes out, it will make even less sense..
TP321 said:
+1
Most 675lt coupe buyers have paid £300k for their car. Spider customers will pay £320k. Its a lot of money when you consider that a one year old 650s Spider can be bought for £170k: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
I just cant see how the 675lt is worth £300k. And when the P14 comes out, it will make even less sense..
You might be right, but the relevant comparison should be not with a 650S but with a 458SA, which had a limited build-run. Most 675lt coupe buyers have paid £300k for their car. Spider customers will pay £320k. Its a lot of money when you consider that a one year old 650s Spider can be bought for £170k: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
I just cant see how the 675lt is worth £300k. And when the P14 comes out, it will make even less sense..
Currently between PH and mobile.de there are 14 458SAs for sale, and the cheapest of the lot is being offered at about £450k.
Relative to them, £300k is almost a giveaway.
flemke said:
You might be right, but the relevant comparison should be not with a 650S but with a 458SA, which had a limited build-run.
Currently between PH and mobile.de there are 14 458SAs for sale, and the cheapest of the lot is being offered at about £450k.
Relative to them, £300k is almost a giveaway.
...and the 675LT is on par with the Speciale coupe which will help stabilise the prices of the normal spec cars. However some of the MSO specced up cars are well north of £350k in coupe form, I think those cars will be owned long term so less of an issue (my one will be at least) but when they do sell it will be entirely dependent on how the individual car is done and if there is a buyer for that individual spec.Currently between PH and mobile.de there are 14 458SAs for sale, and the cheapest of the lot is being offered at about £450k.
Relative to them, £300k is almost a giveaway.
My hope and feeling is McLaren might announce something that most didn't see coming rather than simply "we're doing a 675 Spider"
flemke said:
TP321 said:
+1
Most 675lt coupe buyers have paid £300k for their car. Spider customers will pay £320k. Its a lot of money when you consider that a one year old 650s Spider can be bought for £170k: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
I just cant see how the 675lt is worth £300k. And when the P14 comes out, it will make even less sense..
You might be right, but the relevant comparison should be not with a 650S but with a 458SA, which had a limited build-run. Most 675lt coupe buyers have paid £300k for their car. Spider customers will pay £320k. Its a lot of money when you consider that a one year old 650s Spider can be bought for £170k: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
I just cant see how the 675lt is worth £300k. And when the P14 comes out, it will make even less sense..
Currently between PH and mobile.de there are 14 458SAs for sale, and the cheapest of the lot is being offered at about £450k.
Relative to them, £300k is almost a giveaway.
But yes of course, £300k for a 675LT is cheap compared to the current cost of an SA which is the most similar car on sale right now
flemke said:
You might be right, but the relevant comparison should be not with a 650S but with a 458SA, which had a limited build-run.
Currently between PH and mobile.de there are 14 458SAs for sale, and the cheapest of the lot is being offered at about £450k.
Relative to them, £300k is almost a giveaway.
Dissagree..Currently between PH and mobile.de there are 14 458SAs for sale, and the cheapest of the lot is being offered at about £450k.
Relative to them, £300k is almost a giveaway.
The Speciale and SA are 1)Ferraris, and 2)the last of the normally aspirated. Its for these reasons why the prices are rocketing - Ferrari limited editions are GOLD DUST - you cant compare them to Mclaren.
The 675lt is just another variant of the P11 with the same 3.8 turbo engine. Soon there will be a 570LT which no doubt will be just as fast...where does it really end when a company is going for volume in order to survive and needs as many customers as it can get?
TP321 said:
flemke said:
You might be right, but the relevant comparison should be not with a 650S but with a 458SA, which had a limited build-run.
Currently between PH and mobile.de there are 14 458SAs for sale, and the cheapest of the lot is being offered at about £450k.
Relative to them, £300k is almost a giveaway.
Dissagree..Currently between PH and mobile.de there are 14 458SAs for sale, and the cheapest of the lot is being offered at about £450k.
Relative to them, £300k is almost a giveaway.
The Speciale and SA are 1)Ferraris, and 2)the last of the normally aspirated. Its for these reasons why the prices are rocketing - Ferrari limited editions are GOLD DUST - you cant compare them to Mclaren.
The 675lt is just another variant of the P11 with the same 3.8 turbo engine. Soon there will be a 570LT which no doubt will be just as fast...where does it really end when a company is going for volume in order to survive and needs as many customers as it can get?
Ironic that you suggest that McLaren prices will be depressed because the company "is going for volume", when their goal for the future is to produce IRO 4-5,000 units/year.
Ferrari are already producing >7,000 units/year, and de Montezemolo was sacked for resisting the board's diktat that Ferrari should be producing 10,000 units/year, which number they, as a publicly-owned company, almost certainly will exceed!
The social reality is that the Ferrari brand occupies a rare place in the global marketing hierarchy. For the time being, a Ferrari will command a higher price than many equal or even superior cars will do. One cannot deny that.
It would however be a mistake for anyone to presume that Ferrari's position in the global marketing hierarchy is proportionate to the technical value of its products, or the quality of its organisation.
TP321 said:
+1
Most 675lt coupe buyers have paid £300k for their car. Spider customers will pay £320k. Its a lot of money when you consider that a one year old 650s Spider can be bought for £170k: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
I just cant see how the 675lt is worth £300k. And when the P14 comes out, it will make even less sense..
Used 650S spiders are the supercar bargain of the century IMHO.( well at least at the moment).Most 675lt coupe buyers have paid £300k for their car. Spider customers will pay £320k. Its a lot of money when you consider that a one year old 650s Spider can be bought for £170k: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
I just cant see how the 675lt is worth £300k. And when the P14 comes out, it will make even less sense..
When you look at sales ( movement of ads ) of 458 v 650 its clear to see McLarens are regularly selling at this sub £200k price point versus the equivalent 458 spider that seems to sit unsold for months on end. The general public is definitely waking up to how good the car actually is regardless of the badge
With 675LT at £300k I agree its difficult to justify the 50% premium over the regular car
flemke said:
And Ferrari normally-aspirated engines are really rare, are they, with only about 125,000 of them having been made?
Ironic that you suggest that McLaren prices will be depressed because the company "is going for volume", when their goal for the future is to produce IRO 4-5,000 units/year.
Ferrari are already producing >7,000 units/year, and de Montezemolo was sacked for resisting the board's diktat that Ferrari should be producing 10,000 units/year, which number they, as a publicly-owned company, almost certainly will exceed!
The social reality is that the Ferrari brand occupies a rare place in the global marketing hierarchy. For the time being, a Ferrari will command a higher price than many equal or even superior cars will do. One cannot deny that.
It would however be a mistake for anyone to presume that Ferrari's position in the global marketing hierarchy is proportionate to the technical value of its products, or the quality of its organisation.
OK so with your view of Mclaren, please explain why a 2011/2012 12C can be bought for £105-£115k? Are there too many of them or just no takers? Simply the brand is not strong or well known enough. The product is great, but the brand is weak, hence the poor residuals. So dont even dare dream that the 675lt will enjoy anywhere near the levels of appreciation of the Speciale/SA. You will be lucky if it doesnt depreciate.Ironic that you suggest that McLaren prices will be depressed because the company "is going for volume", when their goal for the future is to produce IRO 4-5,000 units/year.
Ferrari are already producing >7,000 units/year, and de Montezemolo was sacked for resisting the board's diktat that Ferrari should be producing 10,000 units/year, which number they, as a publicly-owned company, almost certainly will exceed!
The social reality is that the Ferrari brand occupies a rare place in the global marketing hierarchy. For the time being, a Ferrari will command a higher price than many equal or even superior cars will do. One cannot deny that.
It would however be a mistake for anyone to presume that Ferrari's position in the global marketing hierarchy is proportionate to the technical value of its products, or the quality of its organisation.
Really cant see how the 675lt with 1,000 of them, will change the residual trend of the P11.
Edited by TP321 on Monday 19th October 17:48
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