Discussion
TrackTwit said:
I would say 80% of the road surface was dry, and the outside temp was c16 Celsius. Having just been out for 2 hours in the Turbo S which is shod in Cup 2s without so much of a blink from any yellow, I perhaps naively expected similar grip levels from the Trofeo's.
It was my first weekend in the car so only just starting to learn it. I will get out to a track in the next couple of weeks for some fun.
For a track-day tyre, the Cup 2 is exceptionally good for damp, less warm conditions, but it took Michelin a long time to figure out how to get it that way. The original Cup tyre was intended as control tyre for racing series, where it did not have to be any good, really. In the conditions of this weekend, that original tyre was fairly diabolical.It was my first weekend in the car so only just starting to learn it. I will get out to a track in the next couple of weeks for some fun.
After the original Cup tyre was developed, the market for that kind of tyre on road cars grew hugely, which is why Michelin went to great lengths to make the modern, better version.
Pirelli, if I may say so, are not as far down that learning curve.
Also, bear in mind that air temp and road temp are not perfectly correlated. The weather has been cool and damp now for a couple of months. The ground beneath the asphalt is many degrees cooler now than it would have been in say September. Relative to a 16° day in September, on a 16° day in December you're going to have less grip.
Finally, with a 4WD Turbo, you've got about 80% more contact patch applying the acceleration force.
flemke said:
TrackTwit said:
I would say 80% of the road surface was dry, and the outside temp was c16 Celsius. Having just been out for 2 hours in the Turbo S which is shod in Cup 2s without so much of a blink from any yellow, I perhaps naively expected similar grip levels from the Trofeo's.
It was my first weekend in the car so only just starting to learn it. I will get out to a track in the next couple of weeks for some fun.
For a track-day tyre, the Cup 2 is exceptionally good for damp, less warm conditions, but it took Michelin a long time to figure out how to get it that way. The original Cup tyre was intended as control tyre for racing series, where it did not have to be any good, really. In the conditions of this weekend, that original tyre was fairly diabolical.It was my first weekend in the car so only just starting to learn it. I will get out to a track in the next couple of weeks for some fun.
After the original Cup tyre was developed, the market for that kind of tyre on road cars grew hugely, which is why Michelin went to great lengths to make the modern, better version.
Pirelli, if I may say so, are not as far down that learning curve.
Also, bear in mind that air temp and road temp are not perfectly correlated. The weather has been cool and damp now for a couple of months. The ground beneath the asphalt is many degrees cooler now than it would have been in say September. Relative to a 16° day in September, on a 16° day in December you're going to have less grip.
Finally, with a 4WD Turbo, you've got about 80% more contact patch applying the acceleration force.
I ran my 997 Turbo on Cup1's and I would concur that the difference in the Cup2s is huge, a monumental leap forward in both wet and dry.
So the obvious question then, can I get Cup2s for the 675lt? I will have a look later, I know they are 20 inch 305's at the rear so it seems likely.
TrackTwit said:
So the obvious question then, can I get Cup2s for the 675lt? I will have a look later, I know they are 20 inch 305's at the rear so it seems likely.
Cup2s exist in the correct sizes for the 675 but you'll have to decide between K1 Ferrari and N0 Porsche on the rears. Given the 675 is able to use trofeos you shouldn't even have tyre liner rubbing issues that the 12c has with more square shouldered tyres than the standard Pzeros or corsas.
Sounds from this conversation that if you're in the UK and your car will spend most of its time on the road rather than the track Trofeo's might not be the way to go unless you only plan on driving on the 4 or 5 hottest days in the summer.
Here's what it says on the configurator:
"Though suitable for road driving, where the temperature is on average above 7 Celsius (45 degrees Fahrenheit), this tyre is for predominantly for dry, track asphalt, ideally where the ambient temperature averages between 17 and 25 Celsius (63 to 77 degrees Fahrenheit). It provides the sort of extreme traction and stability at higher temperatures that the discerning track day enthusiast will enjoy."
Average 17 to 25 degrees - in the UK this is not a frequent occurence.
Here's what it says on the configurator:
"Though suitable for road driving, where the temperature is on average above 7 Celsius (45 degrees Fahrenheit), this tyre is for predominantly for dry, track asphalt, ideally where the ambient temperature averages between 17 and 25 Celsius (63 to 77 degrees Fahrenheit). It provides the sort of extreme traction and stability at higher temperatures that the discerning track day enthusiast will enjoy."
Average 17 to 25 degrees - in the UK this is not a frequent occurence.
Jappo said:
Sounds from this conversation that if you're in the UK and your car will spend most of its time on the road rather than the track Trofeo's might not be the way to go unless you only plan on driving on the 4 or 5 hottest days in the summer.
Here's what it says on the configurator:
"Though suitable for road driving, where the temperature is on average above 7 Celsius (45 degrees Fahrenheit), this tyre is for predominantly for dry, track asphalt, ideally where the ambient temperature averages between 17 and 25 Celsius (63 to 77 degrees Fahrenheit). It provides the sort of extreme traction and stability at higher temperatures that the discerning track day enthusiast will enjoy."
Average 17 to 25 degrees - in the UK this is not a frequent occurence.
Very useful, I will get a set of N rated Cup2s fitted and report back. The Trofeo's can stay in the shed until next summer, a day at the ring and then Spa should see to them nicely. Here's what it says on the configurator:
"Though suitable for road driving, where the temperature is on average above 7 Celsius (45 degrees Fahrenheit), this tyre is for predominantly for dry, track asphalt, ideally where the ambient temperature averages between 17 and 25 Celsius (63 to 77 degrees Fahrenheit). It provides the sort of extreme traction and stability at higher temperatures that the discerning track day enthusiast will enjoy."
Average 17 to 25 degrees - in the UK this is not a frequent occurence.
I drove my 991 Turbo S back from Newcastle to Herts two weeks ago, pouring rain all the rain, very late at night, must have been about 8 degrees outside, they behaved like a high quality standard weather tyre all the way even in standing water. A couple of spirited drives back from Skegvegas had similar happy endings. Suffice it to say I am a big fan of the C2.
TrackTwit said:
Very useful, I will get a set of N rated Cup2s fitted and report back. The Trofeo's can stay in the shed until next summer, a day at the ring and then Spa should see to them nicely.
I drove my 991 Turbo S back from Newcastle to Herts two weeks ago, pouring rain all the rain, very late at night, must have been about 8 degrees outside, they behaved like a high quality standard weather tyre all the way even in standing water. A couple of spirited drives back from Skegvegas had similar happy endings. Suffice it to say I am a big fan of the C2.
I'd be interested to hear what the factory would have to say - they designed and honed the car after all and must have tried it on various rubber during testing.I drove my 991 Turbo S back from Newcastle to Herts two weeks ago, pouring rain all the rain, very late at night, must have been about 8 degrees outside, they behaved like a high quality standard weather tyre all the way even in standing water. A couple of spirited drives back from Skegvegas had similar happy endings. Suffice it to say I am a big fan of the C2.
Jappo said:
TrackTwit said:
Very useful, I will get a set of N rated Cup2s fitted and report back. The Trofeo's can stay in the shed until next summer, a day at the ring and then Spa should see to them nicely.
I drove my 991 Turbo S back from Newcastle to Herts two weeks ago, pouring rain all the rain, very late at night, must have been about 8 degrees outside, they behaved like a high quality standard weather tyre all the way even in standing water. A couple of spirited drives back from Skegvegas had similar happy endings. Suffice it to say I am a big fan of the C2.
I'd be interested to hear what the factory would have to say - they designed and honed the car after all and must have tried it on various rubber during testing.I drove my 991 Turbo S back from Newcastle to Herts two weeks ago, pouring rain all the rain, very late at night, must have been about 8 degrees outside, they behaved like a high quality standard weather tyre all the way even in standing water. A couple of spirited drives back from Skegvegas had similar happy endings. Suffice it to say I am a big fan of the C2.
Jappo said:
I'd be interested to hear what the factory would have to say - they designed and honed the car after all and must have tried it on various rubber during testing.
You would think that but sadly... you're wrong. Pirelli are the affiliated tyre manufacturer and McLaren are going to stick with them for the foreseeable future no matter what even if IMO the supersports are way superior than the MC Pzeros and unless track times are really important the Cup2 is a much more flexible (and stable) track tyre than the trofeo. And the cup2 is not obviously actually very much if any slower...Jappo said:
TrackTwit said:
Very useful, I will get a set of N rated Cup2s fitted and report back. The Trofeo's can stay in the shed until next summer, a day at the ring and then Spa should see to them nicely.
I drove my 991 Turbo S back from Newcastle to Herts two weeks ago, pouring rain all the rain, very late at night, must have been about 8 degrees outside, they behaved like a high quality standard weather tyre all the way even in standing water. A couple of spirited drives back from Skegvegas had similar happy endings. Suffice it to say I am a big fan of the C2.
I'd be interested to hear what the factory would have to say - they designed and honed the car after all and must have tried it on various rubber during testing.I drove my 991 Turbo S back from Newcastle to Herts two weeks ago, pouring rain all the rain, very late at night, must have been about 8 degrees outside, they behaved like a high quality standard weather tyre all the way even in standing water. A couple of spirited drives back from Skegvegas had similar happy endings. Suffice it to say I am a big fan of the C2.
Jappo said:
Sounds from this conversation that if you're in the UK and your car will spend most of its time on the road rather than the track Trofeo's might not be the way to go unless you only plan on driving on the 4 or 5 hottest days in the summer.
Here's what it says on the configurator:
"Though suitable for road driving, where the temperature is on average above 7 Celsius (45 degrees Fahrenheit), this tyre is for predominantly for dry, track asphalt, ideally where the ambient temperature averages between 17 and 25 Celsius (63 to 77 degrees Fahrenheit). It provides the sort of extreme traction and stability at higher temperatures that the discerning track day enthusiast will enjoy."
Average 17 to 25 degrees - in the UK this is not a frequent occurence.
True, and that air temp advice makes a general assumption about road surface temperature. As I was saying, the current road surface temp is lower than it would normally be in 15˚ ambient.Here's what it says on the configurator:
"Though suitable for road driving, where the temperature is on average above 7 Celsius (45 degrees Fahrenheit), this tyre is for predominantly for dry, track asphalt, ideally where the ambient temperature averages between 17 and 25 Celsius (63 to 77 degrees Fahrenheit). It provides the sort of extreme traction and stability at higher temperatures that the discerning track day enthusiast will enjoy."
Average 17 to 25 degrees - in the UK this is not a frequent occurence.
flemke said:
Jappo said:
TrackTwit said:
Very useful, I will get a set of N rated Cup2s fitted and report back. The Trofeo's can stay in the shed until next summer, a day at the ring and then Spa should see to them nicely.
I drove my 991 Turbo S back from Newcastle to Herts two weeks ago, pouring rain all the rain, very late at night, must have been about 8 degrees outside, they behaved like a high quality standard weather tyre all the way even in standing water. A couple of spirited drives back from Skegvegas had similar happy endings. Suffice it to say I am a big fan of the C2.
I'd be interested to hear what the factory would have to say - they designed and honed the car after all and must have tried it on various rubber during testing.I drove my 991 Turbo S back from Newcastle to Herts two weeks ago, pouring rain all the rain, very late at night, must have been about 8 degrees outside, they behaved like a high quality standard weather tyre all the way even in standing water. A couple of spirited drives back from Skegvegas had similar happy endings. Suffice it to say I am a big fan of the C2.
Lotus used to do this with the Yokohama AO48's on the Exige. Supposedly a specific compound (denoted as LTS on the side walls) which Lotus owned the rights to so you could only buy them from Lotus dealers at suitably inflated prices.
Davey S2 said:
flemke said:
Jappo said:
TrackTwit said:
Very useful, I will get a set of N rated Cup2s fitted and report back. The Trofeo's can stay in the shed until next summer, a day at the ring and then Spa should see to them nicely.
I drove my 991 Turbo S back from Newcastle to Herts two weeks ago, pouring rain all the rain, very late at night, must have been about 8 degrees outside, they behaved like a high quality standard weather tyre all the way even in standing water. A couple of spirited drives back from Skegvegas had similar happy endings. Suffice it to say I am a big fan of the C2.
I'd be interested to hear what the factory would have to say - they designed and honed the car after all and must have tried it on various rubber during testing.I drove my 991 Turbo S back from Newcastle to Herts two weeks ago, pouring rain all the rain, very late at night, must have been about 8 degrees outside, they behaved like a high quality standard weather tyre all the way even in standing water. A couple of spirited drives back from Skegvegas had similar happy endings. Suffice it to say I am a big fan of the C2.
Lotus used to do this with the Yokohama AO48's on the Exige. Supposedly a specific compound (denoted as LTS on the side walls) which Lotus owned the rights to so you could only buy them from Lotus dealers at suitably inflated prices.
) units. We're not talking about a halo car such as a P1 or LaF, where the tyre maker hopes to get repaid through marketing kudos associated with a super-exotic machine.flemke said:
Davey S2 said:
flemke said:
McLaren might have experimented with the car on Cups, but they have a contract with Pirelli, so there was no chance that they would supply cars from the factory with Cups, even if they were markedly superior tyres.
Are the Trofeos general ones or is the compound unique to the 675?Lotus used to do this with the Yokohama AO48's on the Exige. Supposedly a specific compound (denoted as LTS on the side walls) which Lotus owned the rights to so you could only buy them from Lotus dealers at suitably inflated prices.
) units. We're not talking about a halo car such as a P1 or LaF, where the tyre maker hopes to get repaid through marketing kudos associated with a super-exotic machine.
isaldiri said:
flemke said:
Davey S2 said:
flemke said:
McLaren might have experimented with the car on Cups, but they have a contract with Pirelli, so there was no chance that they would supply cars from the factory with Cups, even if they were markedly superior tyres.
Are the Trofeos general ones or is the compound unique to the 675?Lotus used to do this with the Yokohama AO48's on the Exige. Supposedly a specific compound (denoted as LTS on the side walls) which Lotus owned the rights to so you could only buy them from Lotus dealers at suitably inflated prices.
) units. We're not talking about a halo car such as a P1 or LaF, where the tyre maker hopes to get repaid through marketing kudos associated with a super-exotic machine.isaldiri said:
TrackTwit said:
Mine are stamped just MC.
Oops, my memory fails me on whether it was MC or MC1 as the McLaren approved tyres as it's been a while since I've had the (IMO worse than useless) Pirellis on my car. 
Good plan, only experience with P tyres is in GT3 and they are a lot more pressure sensitive than M or D , GT3 spec tyres . Have to start at 19 and the first laps you feel the tyres moving on the rims or else if start higher when they heat up , pressure climbs quickly and at a point grip falls away dramatically ....
hunter 66 said:
Good plan, only experience with P tyres is in GT3 and they are a lot more pressure sensitive than M or D , GT3 spec tyres . Have to start at 19 and the first laps you feel the tyres moving on the rims or else if start higher when they heat up , pressure climbs quickly and at a point grip falls away dramatically ....
Be careful starting off by dropping pressures, in the expectation that as the tyre heats up the pressure will reach optimal. Running too low pressure even for a brief period can permanently damage the carcase. Always better to start at normal pressure, do a lap or maybe two, reduce pressures, repeat process a couple more times. Tedious, but better than tyre failure at high speed.Gassing Station | McLaren | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff