Buying a McLaren - WARNING!

[100 IAN]

Having seen a McLaren for sale privately that i was interested in, i spoke to the dealer who had last serviced it to verify its history and to check that i'd be able to extend its warranty when it ran out. (The car's 2nd annual service had been carried out 5 months late)

The dealer obviously needed the car's details and said he'd need to check before releasing any history, which is understandable.

What i had not expected was for the dealer to contact the seller and buy the car themselves, literally within a couple of hours.

Yes with hindsight maybe i should have put a deposit on the car, but i didn't for 1 minute think a McLaren dealer would act in this manner.

Having raised a complaint with the General Manager he has investigated and confirmed in writing that his group buyer acted as a direct result of information passed to him by the person i spoke to. He hasn't made any comment as to whether he agrees or disagrees with what happened, just that they did contact the owner and buy the car as a result of my request to verify its history.

With various owners being less than impressed with how McLaren treat their customers by 'only building x examples' and then finding a way of building more, or by not releasing paint codes so cars have to go back to the dealership for stone chip or alloy refurbishment, this is just another example of McLaren alienating customers.

The experience has left a bitter taste, not just in connection with the dealer but sadly the brand as a whole............what's the rhyming slang for 'Main Dealer' again?

[100 IAN]

Having literally just posted the above i get an email from McLaren Automotive saying

"Firstly thank you for making us aware of your discussions and communication with McLaren ***** since we spoke yesterday.

We can assure you that as a brand we in no way condone this type of practice and we are in contact with the retailer to discuss and address the issue."

Whilst its too late to be of benefit to me, hopefully by rapping their knuckles it'll stop anyone else being taken advantage of by the dealer in question.

[100 IAN]

I've asked them that very question and the reply was an emphatic 'No'

They tell me the car is currently being prep'd for sale, I wait to see what mark-up they put on it. I'm guessing £15k, possibly more(?)

[100 IAN]

pincher said:

If it was on PH/AT etc then who's to say that the dealer wasn't already on to it?

That was the General Manager's stance when i first spoke to him yesterday.

Following 'an investigation' when he spoke to the salesman and group buyer, he then emailed me this morning acknowledging that the buyer had been informed by the salesman after i had told him about the car.

I respect the General Manager acknowledging that they acted as a result of my conversation with them (he could have covered up for his colleagues) but he hasn't apologised, and has stated that anyone 'could' have bought the car and he doesn't think they acted unethically - well I do, as do many others here.

WARNING - When a sales person is building a rapport with you he may not be acting in your best interest, but his own!

Acting in your own short-term interest at the expense of building a long-term relationship with a client is more the practice of back-street 2nd hand car dealership than a reputable high end brand.

I certainly hope that the salesman doesn't get any 'referral bonus' for passing leads onto the buyer, as this is in effect encouraging this to happen again.

[100 IAN]

TP321 said:

Before however i can make up my mind as to who is blame, there is one very important question that the OP has to answer:

Who told the dealer how much OP was paying for the car? OP or the Seller??

I told the dealer what i had to spend. They had a couple of cars within budget, older and higher mileage and i told him of the car i'd seen privately that was obviously a much better deal, but i wanted to verify its history.

The dealer's comment was "if you can get it for that you'd be doing incredibly well" followed by "buying from us gives you peace of mind, McLaren warranty" etc (the car still had 6 month's of warranty on it anyway and i specifically asked if i'd be able to extend that in the usual manner)

[100 IAN]

RamboLambo said:

Surely the seller would at least go back to the private buyer and say "by the way I've now had a trade bid on the car of £x do you want to up your offer"
No deposit was given or contract agreed so who is to say the seller didn't as a sense check get a trade bid on the car.
I know I would certainly get 3 or 4 bids on any car and wouldn't accept £30k behind retail from a private buyer

Think there is more to this than meets the eye and the full facts are not necessarily being disclosed.

Yes the seller did come back to me after being contacted by the dealer, offering me the car at a higher price but wanting a commitment there and then, without me being able to verify its history.

I was then caught in a catch 22, buy the car without any verification of history (remember it was 5 months late on its 2nd service which is unusual, as is one of these being sold privately - had it been damaged/repaired and hence the reason why it wasn't being sold by a dealer?, i didn't know) or i could wait and see if the dealer completed the transaction in which case it would be too late.

NB. I had asked the dealer to verify the car's service history and they committed to do so once they had got the owner's approval - They never sought the owner's approval and have never come back to me on this point - The General Manager on this point says "....they should have got back to me in a more timely manner but due to staff illness were extremely busy" - Oh Yes!, but not too busy to view the car and buy it for themselves!

[100 IAN]

TP321 said:

So you "one way or another" told them how much you could buy it for. That was the mistake - you should have told them a much higher figure, because by not doing so, you made your keen deal public knowledge. What if the dealer didn't buy the car himself, but got a mate or a very good client who was looking for one to buy it? You simply let the cat out of the bag...

Yes they did not act honourably, but you did put temptation in their way...sorry.

You're completely right, and we all live and learn by our mistakes, that's why i started this thread.

[100 IAN]

TP321 said:

The owner of the car is happy because he sold it at a price that he was happy with. The OP had the opportunity to buy it at a very cheap price, but he hesitated and he lost it....The fact that the dealer bought it simply makes OPs pain even greater because it proves that the price was very cheap and the car was a good one.

Correct

TP321 said:

It's a bit like dribbling the defence, rounding the keeper, but shooting wide and missing the open net! ...

Not really because in that example you did something wrong and only have yourself to blame.

I liken it more to agreeing to buy a house, appointing a solicitor to carryout the conveyancing and the solicitor then buying the house.

It would be galling if another buyer went to see the house and agreed a higher price before you had exchanged, but that that is a risk that exists and you take. If however your solicitor stepped in and bought it that would be unethical and against the rules that govern the conduct of a professional solicitor. The solicitor would be then be in breach of his legal duty/obligations, in trouble with the regulator and the buyer able to sue for compensation.

Car dealers are not a professional organisation so not 'governed' independently in the same way.

McLaren Automotive have said to me that they do not condone what happened and "With regards to your complaint about McLaren *****, our regional team are in contact with the senior management at the retailer and are reviewing their used car buying process. Whilst this does not change your experience, it hopefully stops any future reoccurrence."

This in my opinion is a pretty weak and feeble response and their offer of a tour of their Technology Centre scan't compensation for a circa £15k lost as a result of their dealer doing something that they don't condone.

Disappointing to say the least......................

[100 IAN]

An update for those following the thread...

A Director at the dealership has written to me to tell me that i am "not a customer" merely "just a member of the public". Nice to be told that considering i first contacted the dealership back in mid December, discussed 2 used 12C's they were advertising, was asked all the usual contact information (added to their 'customer' database i suspect), invited in to see the cars which I did, offered test drives of a 12C and 570, provided detailed quotations for a 570 to my specification and indicative price for 540.

Despite all of the above they regard me as "merely a member of the public" and don't afford me the courtesy they would afford a "customer"

McLaren Automotive on the other-hand have informed me that they have made immediate changes to the operating procedures of the dealer in question and have referred the matter onto McLaren Europe. They have promised to 'try' and set-up a 3-way meeting to resolve the situation to everyone's mutually satisfaction, which i hope can be achieved.

I've been informed that whilst the dealer may not have broken the law per-se, they are in contravention of voluntary codes of conduct which they subscribe to and openly proclaim. Such contraventions can lead to intervention by the organisation (currently being discussed) or ultimately being struck off which would no-doubt be quite embarrassing.

Personally i'm very disappointed that a dealer representing such a prestigious brand refuses to show any remorse or offer a meaningful apology, as i'm "not a customer" merely a "member of the public".

[100 IAN]

OP here,

To clarify what happened - Saw car advertised, went and had a look/test drive and went through paperwork.

All fine except 2nd service had been 5 months late. This was a minor 'query' as the owner struck me as a very straightforward and diligent person and i was [slightly] surprised that he hadn't been more timely getting it done.

He freely admitted it had had paintwork to door, rear quarter and rear bumper, all separate minor repairs but none-the-less 3 separate repairs to what was a low mileage car. All appeared to have been done properly and if he hadn't told me i'd never have known.

I made an offer '£X' and he made a counter offer '£Y' saying that that he wouldn't sell it for any less.

Considering the 3 paintwork repairs, together with the 2nd service being 5 months late and the 2nd year's mileage being significantly less than the 1st year's mileage, i just wanted to satisfy myself that the car hadn't been crashed & repaired, particularly as it was being sold privately which is not the norm.

We agreed that i would visit the MCL dealer who had looked after the car to verify its history, and then call him the following evening and for '£Y' it would be mine.

Thinking main dealers were not like 'back street' dealers i gave them the details of the car and when asked told them the price. "I'd be amazed if you can get it for that" was their reply.

They said they would need to ask the owner's permission to release information pertaining to the car which is understandable, and get back to me.

The Main Dealer never asked the owner for permission to confirm the car's history but instead phoned him asking him to sell it to them for the same price. By not asking the owner permission [as promised] to share the car's history gave the dealer space to conclude the deal with knowledge only he had, and which at the same time was being withheld from me.

As for 'stealing' the car from the seller, i still believe that the price i was buying it for was sensible for a private purchase bearing in mind the car's spec. By the time the dealer adds his mark-up i think it will look expensive compared to other similar examples, but time will tell.

Edited by 100 IAN on Friday 15th January 22:31

[100 IAN]

Andy 308GTB said:

Is it possible that when the Main Dealer called to get permission to release the car's history, the seller asked what they would give him for the car?

No, the seller phoned me and said categorically that the dealer had NOT asked his permission to release the car's history but had said "We'll pay you what the other buyer (me) said you'll sell it for"

Car is now being advertised for £19k more than they paid and i think is v.expensive compared to other examples and the car's spec.

It'll be interesting to see how long it is before they get a buyer.

[100 IAN]

I don't think it'd be right to do that as PH would pull the thread because of 'no name and shame', sorry.

[100 IAN]

Yes certainly possible.

If that does happen it'll show that the market is rising as a 6 month newer, better spec (carbon, sports exhaust, superlight wheels) car went for less at another main dealer only last week.

[100 IAN]

flemke said:

Ian,

Are you saying that

- you and the seller had agreed that, if the history checked out, you would pay him '£Y', or,

- are you saying that the seller had committed to keeping open his offer of '£Y' until the following evening, at which time you had committed to call him back and say whatever you had to say?

That is, did you and the seller have a firm deal subject only to the history confirmation?

If you did, was the dealer aware of that?

The dealer did not know the specifics of what i had/had not agreed with the seller, only that i wished to verify the car's history and the '£Y' figure. We discussed the '£Y' figure and how it compared with their used 12C coupe's which whilst a little cheaper were older and very much higher mileage.

I suspect that the salesman may not have believed the '£Y' figure at first, probably thinking that i was 'making it up' in order to get a better price for one of his 12C's. But when i supplied the car's full details in order to verify the history they didn't waste any time in asking the owner to verify the price and saying to him "we'll buy it"

On the day in question i was making a final decision between the 'Private Sale' car, the Dealers used 12C's or a new 570/540.

My 1st choice was the 'Private Sale' car but only if i could verify its history. If its history didn't pan out then i would have bought from the Dealer, but not after the stunt they subsequently pulled.

Funnily the Dealer did not follow-up with me until the day after they'd secured the car and the question he asked me in his email was not 'had I bought the Private Sale car?' but "Just wondered if the 570’s we have in showroom was still of interest" previously he'd emailed me saying "I have only delivered the one car so far so if the specification and car was tempting enough on the car we have in the showroom it’s such a great opportunity in getting an early car". NB. Car was offered at list price, it was unregistered and not driven, it wasn't their 'demo' car, just a new car in the showroom waiting to be bought.

[As a side, i was surprised that i could possibly have been only the 2nd person to take delivery of a 570S and literally driven the car away.....maybe they're not selling ?]

[100 IAN]

flemke said:

Well...

if the dealer actively sought out the opportunity to purchase the car, reasoning that if he bought it then Ian's hand would be forced and he would come to the dealer to buy either a new 570 or one of the dealer's 12Cs for sale, thus giving the dealer two wins with one phone call, that would be underhand.

This is exactly the scenerio.

flemke said:

If, however, the seller asked the dealer if the dealer would buy it at £Y, one cannot blame the dealer for saying yes. Also we don't know how strong a relationship there already was between the seller and the dealer, but we do know that they had one.

This categorically was NOT the case. Dealer had collected the car and carried out 1 service only. Seller hadn't bought it from them or visited them, only spoken to them on the phone to arrange the service + collection, so the 'relationship' was as minimal as you could possibly get.

[100 IAN]

flemke said:

The dealer admitted that?

The dealer has admitted in writing that they approached the seller as a direct result of the information that i had provided to them. They have also admitted promising to get back to me regarding confirmation of the cars service history, but subsequently said that they had been "too busy".

The seller has confirmed that he was called by the dealer asking him to sell the car to them rather than to me. He also confirmed that the dealer didn't ask his permission to release service information to me.

Whether their intention was solely to buy the car, or to buy the car and then sell me another is open to speculation. Their post purchase email was however "Just wondered if the 570’s we have in showroom was still of interest...." and whilst my wife and i were sitting in the 570S the salesman was talking to my kids and said to them he'd 'get Dad to spend more money'*, or words to that effect, so it certainly looks as though the answer to your question may well be YES.

NB *this is what my kids told me in the car after we had left, along with how he was not so subtly asking them what other cars i have. I don't hold this against him per-se, he clearly has to verify the legitimacy of 'members of the public' [not customers obviously] but the kids instantly saw through it.

[100 IAN]

flemke said:

Just to clarify, you said that the seller called you back before committing to the dealer and offered you a last chance to buy the car at a higher price, right? I presume that by "higher" you mean higher than where he had offered it to you in your previous conversation (£Y).

Yes, but not only at a higher price but also without verification of its history.

flemke said:

Did you ever learn whether the price paid by the dealer was that same higher price, or perhaps somewhere between the previous offer and the final offer?

The price the dealer paid is a little academic. By not verifying the car's history they engineered a situation where their offer was the only offer.

Approaching the seller as a result of information that i had given them was underhand, denying me verification of the cars history in order to strengthen their negotiating position with the seller was further evidence of unscrupulous behaviour.

[100 IAN]

flemke said:

I am speculating here, but possibly, because the dealership had bought the car, the person with whom you spoke presumed that there would be no need to get back to you with history confirmation.

There was a period of a few days before the dealer concluded the purchase. During that time they failed to seek the owner's permission to divulge the cars service history to me, after which yes they knew there was no need to get back to me.

flemke said:

I think the price that the dealer paid is more than academic. If they had paid more than £Y, one could see why the seller would have been unable to resist the temptation to hit their bid on the spot.

No they didn't pay more. It wasn't a fair competition between competing buyers as the dealer was withholding the service history.
When you mug someone its academic whether the wallet you stole had £50, £100 or nothing inside, its still a mugging.

flemke said:

Perhaps I misunderstand, but did you not know in advance that they were going to contact the seller, because they would need his authorisation in order to release the car's history to you?

Yes absolutely, but what i didn't envisage was the dealer thinking "that's a good deal i think i'll have it for myself"

flemke said:

My point is not that the dealer did nothing underhand, but rather that you do not have enough information to know whether the dealer did something underhand, the seller did something underhand, they both did, or they both got drawn into the situation unthinkingly.

I have to disagree, what the dealer did was absolutely underhand. The buyer on the other hand i don't believe did anything untoward. Faced with 2x buyers he tried to play us off against each other to get more money for his car, as any seller would do. Knowing that the dealer was coming and would pay '£Y' (so long as the car was as they anticipated it would be) he gave me the chance of paying '£Y' + £2,500 but i had to commit there-and-then without any verification of history.

flemke said:

What you do know is how the dealer has behaved since the incident. I would call their behaviour insensitive, unempathetic, and unwise, but stupid rather than absolutely unethical.

Initially unethical and then very stupid [using your terminology] as the General Manager could have apologised profusely, acknowledged that it was wrong/shouldn't have happened and then said "You want to buy a McLaren, we have a selection of new and used cars, I'm sure we can agree a deal...". They then might have had a happy customer + future servicing and repeat purchases, but no the GM said 'tough' - Very short sighted IMO.

[100 IAN]

TP321 said:

....All we really want to know is how much IAN100 nearly stole that McLaren for..??;)

I genuinely wasn't 'stealing' the car from the seller.

I have subsequently bought from McLaren Birmingham (exemplary service, would have no hesitation in recommending them)



http://www.birmingham.mclaren.com/mclaren-preowned...

Yes i paid £5k more but its 5 months newer, has got a sports exhaust, carbon interior, Superlight wheels and 12 rather than 6 months MCL warranty.....oh, and they're much nicer people to do business with, which does have a value.

The 'other' car is being advertised for £14k more than i've paid and whilst it has slightly lower miles doesn't have the above spec.

Does anyone now think that i was really 'stealing' the other car from the seller?

Edited by 100 IAN on Thursday 21st January 23:22

[100 IAN]

flemke said:

andrew said:

flemke said:

100 IAN said:

flemke said:

I am speculating here, but possibly, because the dealership had bought the car, the person with whom you spoke presumed that there would be no need to get back to you with history confirmation.

There was a period of a few days before the dealer concluded the purchase. During that time they failed to seek the owner's permission to divulge the cars service history to me, after which yes they knew there was no need to get back to me.

I thought you had left it with the seller that, if you called him the following evening, the car could be yours for £Y? Did the few days before dealer concluded the purchase come after the seller called you with his "final offer/raised price"?

go for it flemke !
and what did you have for breakfast on the third working day after your second conversation with the dealer ?
and did you pour the milk onto your cornflakes with your left hand or your right ?
and who exactly paid for the cornflakes ?
and did the milk cost more or less than £y?

In light of this thread's many strong responses to incomplete information, I thought it made sense to elicit more facts. The OP has been helpfully providing them.

If you would rather base your opinions on soundbites, please do.

I've been more than happy to answer Flemke's questions, as he is always happy to answers the many many questions he gets asked [constantly] about his F1. That said Andrew's post did make me laugh!

Flemke - If you ever want to do a swap don't hesitate to PM me. I've got a suspicion that you're maybe not a million miles away from me as some pictures posted of your F1 were taken literally just down the road.