VW seems to be panicking...
Discussion
TheDeuce said:
Finally they appear to be making something equivalent to an actual golf in ID form! Why did it have to be this complicated or take so long???
The next tranche of eu emissions regs kick in in 2025, which means lower fleet average.Eu7 diesel regs kick in at the same time, so low co2 diesel sales will all but disappear.
Everything pre 2025 is just to get some ev out the door as cheap as possible to bring their average down.
Edited by JD on Monday 4th September 10:46
Frimley111R said:
I do wonder why changing the power source of cars has led to such a massive change in the way cars look.
I guess manufacturers didn't realise quite how wedded to the existing "built around an internal combustion engine" shape of cars customers were so they went with the technically best overall shapes with some styling bits bolted on... which is odd because it's the sort of thing you should easily be able to figure out by actually asking customers. In the longer run I don't doubt that the market will drift back towards cars which look more like the early EVs, it will just take time for customers to get used to the idea.
TheDeuce said:
Finally they appear to be making something equivalent to an actual golf in ID form! Why did it have to be this complicated or take so long???
Obviously it has to be at least as fast as a golf GTi and no more expensive if it's going to make sense - I genuinely hope that is the case and that we see a bit of excitement come from the VW EV camp at long last.
ID2 is Polo sized (just over 4m long) and it's called a 2 not a 3 so that's where I'd think they are aiming it with that name, Golf and ID3 are a class bigger, although at just over 4.2m they are at the small end of their class compared to a Focus or Astra.Obviously it has to be at least as fast as a golf GTi and no more expensive if it's going to make sense - I genuinely hope that is the case and that we see a bit of excitement come from the VW EV camp at long last.
JD said:
TheDeuce said:
Finally they appear to be making something equivalent to an actual golf in ID form! Why did it have to be this complicated or take so long???
The next tranche of eu emissions regs kick in in 2025, which means lower fleet average.Eu7 diesel regs kick in at the same time, so low co2 diesel spares will all but disappear.
Everything pre 2025 is just to get some ev out the door as cheap as possible to bring their average down.
According to Statista current forecast indicates that by 2030 18% of sold cars globally will be BEV. 44% petrol and 4% diesel.
Vans and trucks not included in car sales and are predominantly diesel.
Parts won’t be an issue for a while.
coetzeeh said:
JD said:
TheDeuce said:
Finally they appear to be making something equivalent to an actual golf in ID form! Why did it have to be this complicated or take so long???
The next tranche of eu emissions regs kick in in 2025, which means lower fleet average.Eu7 diesel regs kick in at the same time, so low co2 diesel spares will all but disappear.
Everything pre 2025 is just to get some ev out the door as cheap as possible to bring their average down.
Edited by Fastdruid on Monday 4th September 12:41
Tbh the biggest thing I’m seeing from VW is a massive uplift in interior quality. Maybe still more planned than available now but what I’m seeing from their soon to be launched cars look promising. God only knows why they went down the crappy route.
I would have very modest expectations of a GTI type of driving experience but let’s see. VW would need to get back to their engineering led focus where they have much more expensive suspension etc in their more sporty and expensive models. The sort of stuff that their competition used to marvel at, which ended with the Golf 7 it seems.
Manufacturers like VW need to stop obsessing about Tesla and focus on their value prop. Not everyone wants a built to a cheap price experience.
I would have very modest expectations of a GTI type of driving experience but let’s see. VW would need to get back to their engineering led focus where they have much more expensive suspension etc in their more sporty and expensive models. The sort of stuff that their competition used to marvel at, which ended with the Golf 7 it seems.
Manufacturers like VW need to stop obsessing about Tesla and focus on their value prop. Not everyone wants a built to a cheap price experience.
coetzeeh said:
Under the Right to Repair legislation parts must be available for at least 7 years from manufacture date.
According to Statista current forecast indicates that by 2030 18% of sold cars globally will be BEV. 44% petrol and 4% diesel.
Vans and trucks not included in car sales and are predominantly diesel.
Parts won’t be an issue for a while.
It was a typo, sales, not spares. According to Statista current forecast indicates that by 2030 18% of sold cars globally will be BEV. 44% petrol and 4% diesel.
Vans and trucks not included in car sales and are predominantly diesel.
Parts won’t be an issue for a while.
Fastdruid said:
On the subject of legislation the new EU rules on batteries (due to come in force 2027 I believe) requiring batteries to be replicable "by a layman" is potentially going to mix things up in the EV market as well as the phone/tablet etc markets. No more unreplaceable batteries where they're an integral part of the car and all glued together (looking at you Tesla!)
Do you mean "replicable" or "replaceable", because they'd have very different impacts on the market!kambites said:
Fastdruid said:
On the subject of legislation the new EU rules on batteries (due to come in force 2027 I believe) requiring batteries to be replicable "by a layman" is potentially going to mix things up in the EV market as well as the phone/tablet etc markets. No more unreplaceable batteries where they're an integral part of the car and all glued together (looking at you Tesla!)
Do you mean "replicable" or "replaceable", because they'd have very different impacts on the market!JD said:
TheDeuce said:
Finally they appear to be making something equivalent to an actual golf in ID form! Why did it have to be this complicated or take so long???
The next tranche of eu emissions regs kick in in 2025, which means lower fleet average.Eu7 diesel regs kick in at the same time, so low co2 diesel sales will all but disappear.
Everything pre 2025 is just to get some ev out the door as cheap as possible to bring their average down.
Edited by JD on Monday 4th September 10:46
Fastdruid said:
kambites said:
Fastdruid said:
On the subject of legislation the new EU rules on batteries (due to come in force 2027 I believe) requiring batteries to be replicable "by a layman" is potentially going to mix things up in the EV market as well as the phone/tablet etc markets. No more unreplaceable batteries where they're an integral part of the car and all glued together (looking at you Tesla!)
Do you mean "replicable" or "replaceable", because they'd have very different impacts on the market!
BlindedByTheLights said:
Problem is that it’ll probably be £50/60k at this rate.
The ID2 is due to be a cheap (ish) car and this GTI is based on that. There are a few items that drive cost reduction but namely:Literally everything is in the front, under the bonnet. Not only does this drive cost savings, it also helps it look like a normal car. With the ID3 for example, rear wheel driven, its got a short nose and its proportions are very far away from the Golf look we are familiar with. The ID2 has a proportionally bigger bonnet.
The rear doors look ace. With putting the handle in the rear window, they no longer have that little window divider that you typically see in a cars rear window and thats allowed them to do several things. Save costs. Make the rear door area look better and by having no handle on the actual door, the wheel arches and side sill lines can flow much better. So a win win really - looks great and cheaper to make.
As a side note, with literally everything in the front of the car under the bonnet, there is room for 'a couple of crates of beer' underneath the boot floor, so loads of boot space if you include the new 'basement under the floor'
kambites said:
I thought that was probably what you meant, but the other would have much more interesting results - if manufacturers legally had to publish all the information needed for third-parties to produce non-OEM battery packs.
It will come, a bit like Apple moving from a lightning connector to a USB-C connector.kambites said:
I thought that was probably what you meant, but the other would have much more interesting results - if manufacturers legally had to publish all the information needed for third-parties to produce non-OEM battery packs.
It will come, a bit like Apple moving from a lightning connector to a USB-C connector.Fastdruid said:
coetzeeh said:
JD said:
TheDeuce said:
Finally they appear to be making something equivalent to an actual golf in ID form! Why did it have to be this complicated or take so long???
The next tranche of eu emissions regs kick in in 2025, which means lower fleet average.Eu7 diesel regs kick in at the same time, so low co2 diesel spares will all but disappear.
Everything pre 2025 is just to get some ev out the door as cheap as possible to bring their average down.
Edited by Fastdruid on Monday 4th September 12:41
Sick of heating up phones to prise cases off that have been glued shut.
Haven't changed a modern EV battery but it wasn't too difficult on a Honda Insight.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/09/14/vo...
Volkswagen is cutting almost 300 roles at a factory in Germany as demand for electric cars dwindles.
The redundancies are being carried out at the car giant’s plant in Zwickau, where a further 2,000 temporary workers are also at risk of losing their jobs.
Volkswagen’s Zwickau factory only produces electric vehicles, which have fallen in popularity due to high inflation and faltering government support.
The job cuts, which were first reported by the German press agency DPA, come as the company prepares for an influx of cheaper electric cars from China.
While purchases of electric vehicles have been strong in the past few years, manufacturers fear customers are being increasingly put off because they are too expensive.
Volkswagen is cutting almost 300 roles at a factory in Germany as demand for electric cars dwindles.
The redundancies are being carried out at the car giant’s plant in Zwickau, where a further 2,000 temporary workers are also at risk of losing their jobs.
Volkswagen’s Zwickau factory only produces electric vehicles, which have fallen in popularity due to high inflation and faltering government support.
The job cuts, which were first reported by the German press agency DPA, come as the company prepares for an influx of cheaper electric cars from China.
While purchases of electric vehicles have been strong in the past few years, manufacturers fear customers are being increasingly put off because they are too expensive.
dxg said:
I was done with VW from the moment they decided to go down the fugly cheap and nasty (without being cheap) route after the Mk7 Golf peak. Everything they’ve done since then has been awful. But this has come as a surprise. It’s the first electric car that I’ve looked at and thought hmmm, that is a nice looking bit of kit. The return of physical controls to some extent too, amazing. Who knew removing them would turn out to be dopey? Concept though and 2025/2026 so as you were.This is an excellent article from the BBC that finally covers many of the factors that we have been discussing for years on PH.
Very unusually for the BBC these days the article doesn't collapse into hang wringing and at no point touches on the dull claptrap but is an old fashioned article that touches on the key points, observations and how the U.K. moves forward.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66820791
The key is that it shows the fork in the road the U.K. finds itself at with the EU, whether we join them in continuing to try and lock out cheaper Chinese goods by excessive regulation, massive funding of right wing lobby groups or whether we deal with the fallout of an angered EU and seize the absolutely enormous competitive advantage the U.K. has of not having the burden of a legacy 20th century manufacturing base at that cars for most are nothing different from fridges, TVs and to be acquired from whomever demands the least amount of GBP to be taken from the U.K.
The article also touches on an aspect that is massively overlooked which is that there is a huge rift forming between France and Germany as Germany is hugely in bed with China as it plans to build most of its cheapest cars for the U.K. and EU in China while also selling its most expensive cars in China. France doesn't have those same ties but also is mainly producing cars at the bottom of the market exactly where price sensitive Western consumers are and the precise consumers who will jump to cheaper but equally good products.
Very unusually for the BBC these days the article doesn't collapse into hang wringing and at no point touches on the dull claptrap but is an old fashioned article that touches on the key points, observations and how the U.K. moves forward.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66820791
The key is that it shows the fork in the road the U.K. finds itself at with the EU, whether we join them in continuing to try and lock out cheaper Chinese goods by excessive regulation, massive funding of right wing lobby groups or whether we deal with the fallout of an angered EU and seize the absolutely enormous competitive advantage the U.K. has of not having the burden of a legacy 20th century manufacturing base at that cars for most are nothing different from fridges, TVs and to be acquired from whomever demands the least amount of GBP to be taken from the U.K.
The article also touches on an aspect that is massively overlooked which is that there is a huge rift forming between France and Germany as Germany is hugely in bed with China as it plans to build most of its cheapest cars for the U.K. and EU in China while also selling its most expensive cars in China. France doesn't have those same ties but also is mainly producing cars at the bottom of the market exactly where price sensitive Western consumers are and the precise consumers who will jump to cheaper but equally good products.
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