What they don't tell you about electric cars

[tamore]

had a range rover about 12 years ago. engine went pop in splendid style. wish it had only been the cost of battery replacement!

[TheDeuce]

Zero Fuchs said:

automotive isn't my field (aero) but the angles we need to cover is insane. The equivalent would be someone asking if anyone had ever considered what might happen if a fan blade broke off during flight. No, of course not

Incidentally I've just looked it up and apparently there was a logic issue whereby brake lights would come on if you lifted off completely but not if you finessed the pedal and decelerated aggressively but still had the pedal down slightly. This is something that affected Hyundai and Genesis too but has been acknowledged and a fix issued.

I have a similar thing with my i3s as I can decelerate at a rate that's just below the threshold for the brake light. But honestly it's the equivalent of engine braking so not really an issue, but obviously it's an issue because EVs need to be perfect!

Exactly. They thought about the core problem and addressed it, it's just someone else failed to test every possible use and response of the system thoroughly during QA. st happens, easy to hot fix these things nowadays - and as ever, there's no QA process as complete as putting a product into the consumers hands.

[dvs_dave]

TheDeuce said:

Zero Fuchs said:

TheDeuce said:

Zero Fuchs said:

fatjon said:

You may think this is so obvious that only an idiot would question whether manufacturers have thought about it..

My 23 EV6 GT just had a software fix for it. Before the fix the regen had to all but stand it on it’s nose before the brake lights came on. Afterwards, it is pretty much as you might expect it would be if they had given it some thought. So assume nothing!

I'd read that it's a fault, as opposed to KIA not thinking about it. The brake light is supposed to come on in all cases except for 0 or 1. Quite different to the discussed scenario.

I see it that way too. Clearly they had designed it to have the ability to illuminate the brake lights without requiring a foot on the pedal, they just set it up poorly.

It's bizarre. I'm going out on a limb here but suspect people that question this kind of silly stuff aren't engineers or work anywhere remotely related to engineering.

It's like engineers just don't think about this kind of thing, but have the presence of mind to ensure cars have pre tensioners, airbags, a myriad of other passive and active protections, crumple zones and everything else.

But brake lights, nah.

I suppose it must fleetingly be a nice moment though, for a simpleton to suddenly have a brain fart and realise a major problem with electric cars and share their wisdom publicly. There has to be a brief moment of smugness ahead of reality hitting and it being pointed out that hundreds of people with collectively thousands of years of car design experience might have thought of the same problem..

Not only has it been thought of, it’s been regulated for quite some time.

In short, any regen deceleration that exceeds a certain threshold, the Brake lights must come on automatically.



https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp...

The Hyundai thing was a fault that’s been fixed via a recall/update.

[ZesPak]

I always thought the regulation was about -0.1g for brake lights to come on, which that table seems to support. Didn't know there was so much leeway in it though.

On another note, aren't manual cars inherently very dangerous because they don't automatically activate the brake lights when engine braking?

[Puzzles]

bearman68 said:

I struggle to see the 'much cheaper' argument.
Very little of our mechanic work is on engines or drive trains. It's on brakes and suspension, and broken internal bits like electric mirrors or windows, or infotainment panels, or body control units. Can't see EV being less than ICE. I reckon EV will be more expensive for similar age / mileage cars. Added to that EV is currently less reliable than ICE (Can't make it up), and I reckon the cost savings won't be as huge as one might think.
But who cares, people will drive what suits them, me included.

Are they really less reliable?

With regen brakes they last a lot longer, maybe even the life of the car.

Also no emissions test to fail.

[heebeegeetee]

Pica-Pica said:

TheDeuce said:

What's that got to do with a random theory that cars with regen don't display braking lights!?

Have you honestly just posted to point out that autonomous car tech isn't faultless? Neither are the old farts that brake for no reason when they're driving at 38mph along a quiet nat speed limit road. Shall we uninvent old people too?

Please stop posting things that are as obvious as they are uninteresting

Most people that constantly brake are youngsters on rural roads, they just cannot read the road ahead.

Agreed with that - after some kid has felt the need to give his car a hoof - whatever the car - always the brake lights come on soon after. Always always always.
And German cars - do they come with better bulbs? Because their brake lights seem to be on near permanently.

As you say, do they never look ahead?

[Tam_Mullen]

M4cruiser said:

Megaflow said:

How the hell can the sales force predict what repairs are going to be required? Do you ask how much it cost to replace the engine when you buy an ICE?

Yes. Or something similar.

Can't believe no-one else picked up on this.

No you fking don't.

[TheDeuce]

heebeegeetee said:

Pica-Pica said:

TheDeuce said:

What's that got to do with a random theory that cars with regen don't display braking lights!?

Have you honestly just posted to point out that autonomous car tech isn't faultless? Neither are the old farts that brake for no reason when they're driving at 38mph along a quiet nat speed limit road. Shall we uninvent old people too?

Please stop posting things that are as obvious as they are uninteresting

Most people that constantly brake are youngsters on rural roads, they just cannot read the road ahead.

Agreed with that - after some kid has felt the need to give his car a hoof - whatever the car - always the brake lights come on soon after. Always always always.
And German cars - do they come with better bulbs? Because their brake lights seem to be on near permanently.

As you say, do they never look ahead?

It's increasingly not just people failing to read the road, it's cars that are self driving not able to read ahead all that far, or at least not to see past the car immediately in front.

When mine is driving itself, reliable and convenient as it is, it's also braking at times ls when I myself would formerly have come off the throttle a little earlier and therefore not needed to actually brake.

This is a separate issue to dodgy human drivers and isn't an EV thing, but it is on the rise now so many new cars have self drive ability.

[pti]

dvs_dave said:

TheDeuce said:

Zero Fuchs said:

TheDeuce said:

Zero Fuchs said:

fatjon said:

You may think this is so obvious that only an idiot would question whether manufacturers have thought about it..

My 23 EV6 GT just had a software fix for it. Before the fix the regen had to all but stand it on it’s nose before the brake lights came on. Afterwards, it is pretty much as you might expect it would be if they had given it some thought. So assume nothing!

I'd read that it's a fault, as opposed to KIA not thinking about it. The brake light is supposed to come on in all cases except for 0 or 1. Quite different to the discussed scenario.

I see it that way too. Clearly they had designed it to have the ability to illuminate the brake lights without requiring a foot on the pedal, they just set it up poorly.

It's bizarre. I'm going out on a limb here but suspect people that question this kind of silly stuff aren't engineers or work anywhere remotely related to engineering.

It's like engineers just don't think about this kind of thing, but have the presence of mind to ensure cars have pre tensioners, airbags, a myriad of other passive and active protections, crumple zones and everything else.

But brake lights, nah.

I suppose it must fleetingly be a nice moment though, for a simpleton to suddenly have a brain fart and realise a major problem with electric cars and share their wisdom publicly. There has to be a brief moment of smugness ahead of reality hitting and it being pointed out that hundreds of people with collectively thousands of years of car design experience might have thought of the same problem..

Not only has it been thought of, it’s been regulated for quite some time.

In short, any regen deceleration that exceeds a certain threshold, the Brake lights must come on automatically.



https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp...

The Hyundai thing was a fault that’s been fixed via a recall/update.

Interestingly I was following a colleagues e208 and recognised it was slowing quite a bit without illuminating brake lights. When we stopped I found out he was in full regen and he was surprised the lights weren't coming on.

Turns out the PSA cars don't meet the decel specified in the regulations to mandate brake lights (from Google, we didn't bother to validate). The may statement in the regs covers quite a broad range and feels like it could skewer a few people who aren't paying full attention.

We're both automotive engineers.

[98elise]

Puzzles said:

bearman68 said:

I struggle to see the 'much cheaper' argument.
Very little of our mechanic work is on engines or drive trains. It's on brakes and suspension, and broken internal bits like electric mirrors or windows, or infotainment panels, or body control units. Can't see EV being less than ICE. I reckon EV will be more expensive for similar age / mileage cars. Added to that EV is currently less reliable than ICE (Can't make it up), and I reckon the cost savings won't be as huge as one might think.
But who cares, people will drive what suits them, me included.

Are they really less reliable?

With regen brakes they last a lot longer, maybe even the life of the car.

Also no emissions test to fail.

Having spent decades maintaining all manner of equipment I would be amazed if electrical drivetrains were less reliable. Electronic and electrical systems are inherently reliable.

Just think about any large building with pumps, fans, AC etc. Hundreds of motors running all day every working day, for years. They will do that for many many years with very few issues.

How many ICE cars do you know that have reliability issues? Seems like most manufacturers have engines to avoid because they will likely prematurely fail.

[98elise]

Tam_Mullen said:

M4cruiser said:

Megaflow said:

How the hell can the sales force predict what repairs are going to be required? Do you ask how much it cost to replace the engine when you buy an ICE?

Yes. Or something similar.

Can't believe no-one else picked up on this.

No you fking don't.

I just assumed it was trolling?

[Zero Fuchs]

98elise said:

Having spent decades maintaining all manner of equipment I would be amazed if electrical drivetrains were less reliable. Electronic and electrical systems are inherently reliable.

Just think about any large building with pumps, fans, AC etc. Hundreds of motors running all day every working day, for years. They will do that for many many years with very few issues.

How many ICE cars do you know that have reliability issues? Seems like most manufacturers have engines to avoid because they will likely prematurely fail.

The 'less reliable' comment gets anti EV people excited and those less likely to investigate but relates to software and not hardware.

I don't quite understand why (rush to market perhaps) but EVs seem to have more software issues than ICE, according to warranty data.

[JonnyVTEC]

Don’t confuse correlation and causation.

EVs are the latest products with the industry trend of more connected features. They happen to have more software issues, not because they EV, but because they are the newest products.

[Toaster Pilot]

Where are we copying and pasting our bks from today?

[TheDeuce]

JonnyVTEC said:

Don’t confuse correlation and causation.

EVs are the latest products with the industry trend of more connected features. They happen to have more software issues, not because they EV, but because they are the newest products.

Quite. And frankly I'd rather have a car with software issues to fix than one that requires component replacement - especially given the endless delays that can lead to.

If there's a software issue that's big enough to cause real problems for the owners of the cars, it's going to be followed up with a fix pretty quickly - and at minimal, if any expense.

Temporary issues aside, electronics are extremely reliable. I'm sure even most that would disagree actually have an ancient smart phone somewhere in their house, which if powered up would still function. Mrs Deuce plays Theme Hospital on a 25 year old laptop!

[M4cruiser]

Zero Fuchs said:

It's bizarre. I'm going out on a limb here but suspect people that question this kind of silly stuff aren't engineers or work anywhere remotely related to engineering.

It's like engineers just don't think about this kind of thing, but have the presence of mind to ensure cars have pre tensioners, airbags, a myriad of other passive and active protections, crumple zones and everything else.

But brake lights, nah.

Not sure if I quite get how satirical you're being, but my point earlier is that despite engineers' clever brains, stupid things do find their way into production, like the way a Golf 8 decelerates after the hazard ahead has gone. Wouldn't be surprised at all if the brake lights are doing stupid things at the same time.

[cvega]

how does one wake up one morning an decide 'imma post this on a EV forum'? bizarre.

[The OG Jester]

Would consider myself a petrol head but my EV has been absolutely spot on. I always have a laugh when people say what's the claimed range then tell them to be greet by...........so half that in real life? Nope

Costs a fortune to charge.......Mmmmm spent £18.72 last week to get over 240 miles.

It will break and cost a fortune for a new battery......Nope, under warranty throughout my whole deal.

All that faffing about with cables to charge....Hardly a faff, bit like faffing about with a petrol pump but I can then go into the house and do as I please while it charges.


It suits my needs perfectly and I get it's not for everyone. As for the tech side, I had more issues with a brand new Seat Leon with a touch screen (lost to the garage for 4 months) which was a full petrol car. My i4 has had no such technical issues, it's been flawless as you would expect from a new car. In fact it's about the most reliable new car I've ever owned. Has many new cars over the years...

Vauxhall Insignia VX Line, 166 miles and the engine started smoking. Manifold sensor finger tight. Car taken back to the garage to have the whole car checked over to see what else was loose!

Ford Focus ST 2016, constantly blowing bulbs and the push start failed to work several times. Fixed under warranty, part of the loom replaced.

Several Astra diesels as hire cars, engine management light coming on with only a few thousand miles on the clock. Think I had 4 cars this happened with in the space of a year.

[PSRG]

I've done 4,000 miles in 2 months in mine, and have visited a public charging station 3 times, for 10 or 11 minutes a time. So I've spent just over half an hour at a 'petrol' station, mostly nice and warm at in the car checking WhatsApps. 4,000 miles in my diesel Merc would have meant 8 or 9 stops of 5 or 6 minutes, so 45 minutes unproductively doing nothing and getting cold! The same in the petrol E class before that would have been 12 or so stops - over an hour. Happy days

[OutInTheShed]

The OG Jester said:

Would consider myself a petrol head but my EV has been absolutely spot on. I always have a laugh when people say what's the claimed range then tell them to be greet by...........so half that in real life? Nope

Costs a fortune to charge.......Mmmmm spent £18.72 last week to get over 240 miles.

It will break and cost a fortune for a new battery......Nope, under warranty throughout my whole deal.

All that faffing about with cables to charge....Hardly a faff, bit like faffing about with a petrol pump but I can then go into the house and do as I please while it charges.


It suits my needs perfectly and I get it's not for everyone. As for the tech side, I had more issues with a brand new Seat Leon with a touch screen (lost to the garage for 4 months) which was a full petrol car. My i4 has had no such technical issues, it's been flawless as you would expect from a new car. In fact it's about the most reliable new car I've ever owned. Has many new cars over the years...

Vauxhall Insignia VX Line, 166 miles and the engine started smoking. Manifold sensor finger tight. Car taken back to the garage to have the whole car checked over to see what else was loose!

Ford Focus ST 2016, constantly blowing bulbs and the push start failed to work several times. Fixed under warranty, part of the loom replaced.

Several Astra diesels as hire cars, engine management light coming on with only a few thousand miles on the clock. Think I had 4 cars this happened with in the space of a year.

This just says to me that many cars are designed by idiots and built by baboons.
The 'body electrics' and similar issues that drive the owners of old cars around the bend will be much the same with EVs.
There's a hundred things wrong with my shed. 98 of them are not IC specific.

It's just a given these days, cars are designed tlo last about 12 years then get recycled.
All cars. Petrol, diesel, EV, hybrid.

The problem is the UK motoring public is dependent on lots of cars lasting more like 15 to 20 years.