EVs and In Gear Acceleration vs ICE
Discussion
cerb4.5lee said:
There isn't much point in having a performance car if you don't use the performance for me. You generally pay over the odds for tax/insurance etc with a performance car, so you have to enjoy it occasionally I reckon.
I've had several performance cars and make use of the performance regularly - but it's about dynamic handling and acceleration surely? I don't sit at 100mph+ which is; a) boring, b) a great way to lose your license. What I want from a performance car is a well sorted chassis so I can throw it into a corner, and then a million horsepower to catapult me back out of the corner.If you just want to go quickly, get on the Eurostar, or a plane - 500mph all the way to the med, for as little as £50
TheDeuce said:
cerb4.5lee said:
There isn't much point in having a performance car if you don't use the performance for me. You generally pay over the odds for tax/insurance etc with a performance car, so you have to enjoy it occasionally I reckon.
I've had several performance cars and make use of the performance regularly - but it's about dynamic handling and acceleration surely? I don't sit at 100mph+ which is; a) boring, b) a great way to lose your license. What I want from a performance car is a well sorted chassis so I can throw it into a corner, and then a million horsepower to catapult me back out of the corner.If you just want to go quickly, get on the Eurostar, or a plane - 500mph all the way to the med, for as little as £50
Lessons can be had also with people usually of a much higher degree of expertise. As a passenger it can be quite grounding.
Nomme de Plum said:
TheDeuce said:
cerb4.5lee said:
There isn't much point in having a performance car if you don't use the performance for me. You generally pay over the odds for tax/insurance etc with a performance car, so you have to enjoy it occasionally I reckon.
I've had several performance cars and make use of the performance regularly - but it's about dynamic handling and acceleration surely? I don't sit at 100mph+ which is; a) boring, b) a great way to lose your license. What I want from a performance car is a well sorted chassis so I can throw it into a corner, and then a million horsepower to catapult me back out of the corner.If you just want to go quickly, get on the Eurostar, or a plane - 500mph all the way to the med, for as little as £50
Lessons can be had also with people usually of a much higher degree of expertise. As a passenger it can be quite grounding.
But at least steering and acceleration can be enjoyed legally on the open road, and safely so long as you're sensible and disciplined about not taking blind risks or goading other drivers etc.
TheDeuce said:
I agree, track is the only place to fully enjoy a performance car.
But at least steering and acceleration can be enjoyed legally on the open road, and safely so long as you're sensible and disciplined about not taking blind risks or goading other drivers etc.
You're spot on. Providing suitable conditions prevail much enjoyment can be had within speed limits on our roads. But at least steering and acceleration can be enjoyed legally on the open road, and safely so long as you're sensible and disciplined about not taking blind risks or goading other drivers etc.
740EVTORQUES said:
And track cars are quite different to road cars. Why then make road cars that are too powerful to enjoy legally and safely on the road yet fairly rubbish on track?
Road cars don’t need more than 300bhp/ton
Pointless IMHO
Not necessarily at all. If you go to a track day regularly you will see many normal road cars being used on the track as it a much safer and legal place to enjoy the performance of that car. Road cars don’t need more than 300bhp/ton
Pointless IMHO
When I used to track regularly there'd be any number of standard Porches, BMW M series, Peugeots old minis, Caterhams etc etc along with more track focused stuff a completely dedicated track cars.
740EVTORQUES said:
And track cars are quite different to road cars. Why then make road cars that are too powerful to enjoy legally and safely on the road yet fairly rubbish on track?
Road cars don’t need more than 300bhp/ton
Pointless IMHO
It's the torque that makes performance EV's so useable and enjoyable on the open road. My M50 had less than 300bhp per tonne but 800nm of torque. 800nm of torque is a lot for any road car, but in EV form that torque is immediate and sustained in a way an ICE car can't equal.Road cars don’t need more than 300bhp/ton
Pointless IMHO
Couple it with AWD and at any road speed you can put the power down and the car takes off like most people wouldn't believe. You can enjoy all that without breaking any speed limits (although it's very easy to break them..) and without screeching tyres or a screaming engine - so unless plod is watching very closely, he might not even realise you're having fun
Nomme de Plum said:
740EVTORQUES said:
And track cars are quite different to road cars. Why then make road cars that are too powerful to enjoy legally and safely on the road yet fairly rubbish on track?
Road cars don’t need more than 300bhp/ton
Pointless IMHO
Not necessarily at all. If you go to a track day regularly you will see many normal road cars being used on the track as it a much safer and legal place to enjoy the performance of that car. Road cars don’t need more than 300bhp/ton
Pointless IMHO
When I used to track regularly there'd be any number of standard Porches, BMW M series, Peugeots old minis, Caterhams etc etc along with more track focused stuff a completely dedicated track cars.
Once you’re into track focussed cars you’re chasing lap times, which had little appeal for me.
Road driving is much less predictable and you’re not limited to cover in the same few miles of tarmac repeatedly - another reason that racing on a track is interesting but just driving round in circles is less so.
survivalist said:
Once you’re into track focussed cars you’re chasing lap times, which had little appeal for me.
Road driving is much less predictable and you’re not limited to cover in the same few miles of tarmac repeatedly - another reason that racing on a track is interesting but just driving round in circles is less so.
I thought I was alone in thinking this as whenever I told people I found driving on track a bit dull they got all judgy and told me I didn’t know what I was talking about. For me, the challenge of making safe, swift unobtrusive progress on the roads is far more rewarding.Road driving is much less predictable and you’re not limited to cover in the same few miles of tarmac repeatedly - another reason that racing on a track is interesting but just driving round in circles is less so.
Chris
I agree that just going round in circles would get a bit dull, but when you get into analysing your performance, and laying with brake bias, tyre pressures and suspension settings it’s quite addictive.
I’ve even gone to the stage of practicing in a SIM between trackdays! It’s a can of worms…
I’ve even gone to the stage of practicing in a SIM between trackdays! It’s a can of worms…
ScoobyChris said:
I thought I was alone in thinking this as whenever I told people I found driving on track a bit dull they got all judgy and told me I didn’t know what I was talking about. For me, the challenge of making safe, swift unobtrusive progress on the roads is far more rewarding.
Chris
I do find the best thing about a nice, performance orientated road car is that it makes each journey feel special, and tbh there's a degree of satisfaction I get from knowing that I'm the one in the fast car - not just in a smug, childish way, but also in practical terms it's nice to know that in the shortest space of road I can safely and neatly power past a 40mph dawdler on an unrestricted road.Chris
Driving is a daily thing for most adults, make it something more than a chore. I've always said that the best passion to have is one that also serves a practical purpose - because you get double value for your money!
Tomorrow I have to make the 20 mile round trip to my workshop. On the route there are a couple of twisty bits I always look forward to. In the unit next door to mine there's a tyre place, so often other car people hanging around who often make pleasant comments about my car - or just plain old fascination that there's no engine.. I'll do a bit of work, then look forward to the drive back home. Perfect.
I agree that driving a well honed car across a country road is very enjoyable, snd doesn’t have to involve high speeds, certainly not >100mph. This is totally different from the challenge of track driving where you’re essentially accelerating hard, braking, or cornering in the limit the whole time, these being things you should rarely if at all experience on a public road.
My point is that there is a whole category of road cars that are vastly over engineered for road use, and under engineered for track use. Certainly you can enjoy a road car on track, but it’s a bit painful for them unless you start modifying things and then they stop being good road cars. The sweet spot is surely Caymans, GT3s and the like?
My point is that there is a whole category of road cars that are vastly over engineered for road use, and under engineered for track use. Certainly you can enjoy a road car on track, but it’s a bit painful for them unless you start modifying things and then they stop being good road cars. The sweet spot is surely Caymans, GT3s and the like?
survivalist said:
I used to do loads of track days, but found the novelty wore off. With the exception of the caterham I found those types of cars to be more fun on the road.
Once you’re into track focussed cars you’re chasing lap times, which had little appeal for me.
Road driving is much less predictable and you’re not limited to cover in the same few miles of tarmac repeatedly - another reason that racing on a track is interesting but just driving round in circles is less so.
I did build a specialist track car and I can't say I ever got bored of tracking it. A combination of tweaking the car's set up and honing my limited driving skills was never boring. Both physically and mentally challenging. The drive there and back was pretty horrendous and I was at the point of buying a car trailer and decided I would concentrate on my preferred sport/passion/hobby. Once you’re into track focussed cars you’re chasing lap times, which had little appeal for me.
Road driving is much less predictable and you’re not limited to cover in the same few miles of tarmac repeatedly - another reason that racing on a track is interesting but just driving round in circles is less so.
I never drive on the road now for pleasure, too much other stuff to do and the area I live in is fairly densely populated so there's always traffic about. On the more interesting roads there will inevitably be the risk of horse riders and quite a few cyclists.
Anyway bit off topic.
740EVTORQUES said:
I agree that driving a well honed car across a country road is very enjoyable, snd doesn’t have to involve high speeds, certainly not >100mph. This is totally different from the challenge of track driving where you’re essentially accelerating hard, braking, or cornering in the limit the whole time, these being things you should rarely if at all experience on a public road.
My point is that there is a whole category of road cars that are vastly over engineered for road use, and under engineered for track use. Certainly you can enjoy a road car on track, but it’s a bit painful for them unless you start modifying things and then they stop being good road cars. The sweet spot is surely Caymans, GT3s and the like?
They're definitely two different things and different levels and intensity of fun and achievement.My point is that there is a whole category of road cars that are vastly over engineered for road use, and under engineered for track use. Certainly you can enjoy a road car on track, but it’s a bit painful for them unless you start modifying things and then they stop being good road cars. The sweet spot is surely Caymans, GT3s and the like?
I had a GT3 for a short while, it was the most confidence inspiring car I've had TBF! For track use it's exactly what I'd want, and EV are thus far not able to compete with such a car on a track - just too heavy for on the limit control.
But conversely I would say performance EV's are more able use their potential and power on the open road than ICE cars. AWD EV's have crazy levels of grip under hard acceleration, and the more responsive and accurate torque control maintains that grip through the corners - and they corner hard, flat.
That's what you want/need on the road, a car that hits you with forces, let's you experience the performance. You can't risk getting too close to a cars dynamic limits on the public road, but the limits of performance EV are generally higher than ICE before it's 'too much' for safety's sake.
Horses for courses. Electric horses like the roads..
It’s incredibly easy for a 1.0 litre Fiesta to be visibility limited for its performance already. It certainly is on Fen roads where I live.
So having something with enough power to exploit the chances you get and enough character to make it enjoyable are the important things. Outright speed has been well
Down the list for at least 10 years or so for me.
So if you enjoy electric, it has many advantages, if you enjoy a combustion engine ed car, it has many advantages.
Trying to convince me an electric car is as characterful as an IC o r is pointless as I love engines with character and have driven enough electric cars to know they don’t have what I want.
If you love the instant shove then an electric car is perfect and on the road very difficult to beat, so it does what you want it to do.
What I do think though is electric cars show up bad drivers with bad throttle control. Surging all the time and making passengers feel sick. Just like bad drivers who are never in the correct gear or can operate a clutch well.
Dave!
So having something with enough power to exploit the chances you get and enough character to make it enjoyable are the important things. Outright speed has been well
Down the list for at least 10 years or so for me.
So if you enjoy electric, it has many advantages, if you enjoy a combustion engine ed car, it has many advantages.
Trying to convince me an electric car is as characterful as an IC o r is pointless as I love engines with character and have driven enough electric cars to know they don’t have what I want.
If you love the instant shove then an electric car is perfect and on the road very difficult to beat, so it does what you want it to do.
What I do think though is electric cars show up bad drivers with bad throttle control. Surging all the time and making passengers feel sick. Just like bad drivers who are never in the correct gear or can operate a clutch well.
Dave!
I raced a caterham on and off for 10 years between 2004 and 2014, collecting a fair few trophies on the way. So i entirely agree with the sentiment that it's on the track where you can really measure the difference between drivers. The consistent environment and closely matched cars guarantees that.
I've also done many, many trackdays over the years. Mostly these have either been in various track prepped Mk1/Mk2 MX5s, or in a Clio 200. I've done plenty of trackdays in the caterhams i've had too, as well as a bike engined kit car that was absolutely bonkers.
So my history is with light weight, agile, engaging cars.
I'm also a motorbike enthusiast, having owned dozens of different bikes over the years. There's nothing quite so intimate as giving a sports bike a proper thrashing round some challenging bends. So a similar history there of preferring engagement and agility.
IMO anything bigger than a Renaultsport Clio is getting a bit chunky to properly enjoy on the road. I had an M2 as a road car, and it felt a bit big and disconnected. Tried an FK8 civic too and that was a bit better but still too big. People claiming that a 300+bhp ICE is way more engaging than a 300+bhp EV are kidding themselves. They're both too heavy and too powerful enjoy on the road in terms of handling/agility.
I came to the conclusion that chasing what i wanted in something suitable for daily driving was a fools errand, so have split it and have an Elise and motorbike in the garage.
And you'd have to peel my Tesla Model 3 out of my cold, dead hands to get it off me as a daily driver. Yes it's not as agile as some road cars, but to get the level of agility where i'd really start enjoying myself i'd have to drive something like a Renaultsport Clio and that would drive me insane day-to-day.
The way the Tesla drives is sporty enough in driving position and size that to my mind it's not too dissimilar to the sporty BMWs i've had in the past.
But the way it leaps up the road is just hilarious. Just doing the school run is fun because of the way it launches. Kids love it, whereas they hated the hard ride in the M2 and Clio.
That's coming from someone that's not an EV lover. I think for the most part they're pretty f'ugly and depressingly boring looking things.
I recognise the potential environmental benefits, but TBH that's about 5th or 6th on the list of reasons why i love the Model 3. If i was to pick any car to replace it with out of anything available i'd pick a newer Model 3.
I've also done many, many trackdays over the years. Mostly these have either been in various track prepped Mk1/Mk2 MX5s, or in a Clio 200. I've done plenty of trackdays in the caterhams i've had too, as well as a bike engined kit car that was absolutely bonkers.
So my history is with light weight, agile, engaging cars.
I'm also a motorbike enthusiast, having owned dozens of different bikes over the years. There's nothing quite so intimate as giving a sports bike a proper thrashing round some challenging bends. So a similar history there of preferring engagement and agility.
IMO anything bigger than a Renaultsport Clio is getting a bit chunky to properly enjoy on the road. I had an M2 as a road car, and it felt a bit big and disconnected. Tried an FK8 civic too and that was a bit better but still too big. People claiming that a 300+bhp ICE is way more engaging than a 300+bhp EV are kidding themselves. They're both too heavy and too powerful enjoy on the road in terms of handling/agility.
I came to the conclusion that chasing what i wanted in something suitable for daily driving was a fools errand, so have split it and have an Elise and motorbike in the garage.
And you'd have to peel my Tesla Model 3 out of my cold, dead hands to get it off me as a daily driver. Yes it's not as agile as some road cars, but to get the level of agility where i'd really start enjoying myself i'd have to drive something like a Renaultsport Clio and that would drive me insane day-to-day.
The way the Tesla drives is sporty enough in driving position and size that to my mind it's not too dissimilar to the sporty BMWs i've had in the past.
But the way it leaps up the road is just hilarious. Just doing the school run is fun because of the way it launches. Kids love it, whereas they hated the hard ride in the M2 and Clio.
That's coming from someone that's not an EV lover. I think for the most part they're pretty f'ugly and depressingly boring looking things.
I recognise the potential environmental benefits, but TBH that's about 5th or 6th on the list of reasons why i love the Model 3. If i was to pick any car to replace it with out of anything available i'd pick a newer Model 3.
Edited by LowTread on Tuesday 19th March 10:35
Howitzer said:
What I do think though is electric cars show up bad drivers with bad throttle control. Surging all the time and making passengers feel sick. Just like bad drivers who are never in the correct gear or can operate a clutch well.
Dave!
There's no throttle to control Dave!
But yes I agree with the sentiment here - as an EV driver you do have to drive very differently if you have passengers. As a lone driver, I love surging out of each corner/junction/traffic lights... But whilst it's very easy to do, and satisfying to make such neat and rapid progress as a driver... It's unpleasant for passengers.
The absolute worst is EV drivers that use one pedal driving with passengers, because the car switches from power to braking force in a binary way = the car pitches forward each time!
I'm aware of these things as I'm often a passenger in electric airport cars, also I have 20+ years of ICE manual driving experience. I wonder if the future generation of EV only drivers will worry about offering a smooth ride?? Possibly not, they might just think it's 'normal' to drive in a binary on/off fashion
TheDeuce said:
There's no throttle to control
But yes I agree with the sentiment here - as an EV driver you do have to drive very differently if you have passengers. As a lone driver, I love surging out of each corner/junction/traffic lights... But whilst it's very easy to do, and satisfying to make such neat and rapid progress as a driver... It's unpleasant for passengers.
The absolute worst is EV drivers that use one pedal driving with passengers, because the car switches from power to braking force in a binary way = the car pitches forward each time!
I'm aware of these things as I'm often a passenger in electric airport cars, also I have 20+ years of ICE manual driving experience. I wonder if the future generation of EV only drivers will worry about offering a smooth ride?? Possibly not, they might just think it's 'normal' to drive in a binary on/off fashion
Surely driving smoothly is a function of the drivers ability and consideration for passengers. It is true than an EV may expose a lack of ability that an ICE may help to mask but jerky driving is jerky driving. I'm sure we've all been with someone who can't work through the gears or decelerate in smooth fashion. But yes I agree with the sentiment here - as an EV driver you do have to drive very differently if you have passengers. As a lone driver, I love surging out of each corner/junction/traffic lights... But whilst it's very easy to do, and satisfying to make such neat and rapid progress as a driver... It's unpleasant for passengers.
The absolute worst is EV drivers that use one pedal driving with passengers, because the car switches from power to braking force in a binary way = the car pitches forward each time!
I'm aware of these things as I'm often a passenger in electric airport cars, also I have 20+ years of ICE manual driving experience. I wonder if the future generation of EV only drivers will worry about offering a smooth ride?? Possibly not, they might just think it's 'normal' to drive in a binary on/off fashion
TheDeuce said:
The absolute worst is EV drivers that use one pedal driving with passengers, because the car switches from power to braking force in a binary way = the car pitches forward each time!
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. If you can drive properly and have good pedal control, they should be smooth.Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff