Anyone giving up EV?
Discussion
Chasing Potatoes said:
Define a car then. Wikipedia list it as:
A car, or an automobile, is a motor vehicle with wheels. Most definitions of cars state that they run primarily on roads, seat one to eight people, have four wheels, and mainly transport people, not cargo.
Because I think if you'd listed these:
Smoother
Quieter
Easier to drive
More responsive
More practical (better packaging)
Lower maintenance
Lower fuel costs
for an ICE car you'd be very much saying they're what make it a better car. After all those are often sought-after with any car. It does feel like you're engaged in an ongoing semantic debate to ignore the parts that don't suit you. Today it's that cost must be equal.
Would you not agree affordability and how far you can travel, is fundamental to how good a car is. Or would you say the things you have listed are more important? A car, or an automobile, is a motor vehicle with wheels. Most definitions of cars state that they run primarily on roads, seat one to eight people, have four wheels, and mainly transport people, not cargo.
Because I think if you'd listed these:
Smoother
Quieter
Easier to drive
More responsive
More practical (better packaging)
Lower maintenance
Lower fuel costs
for an ICE car you'd be very much saying they're what make it a better car. After all those are often sought-after with any car. It does feel like you're engaged in an ongoing semantic debate to ignore the parts that don't suit you. Today it's that cost must be equal.
Edited by Chasing Potatoes on Monday 15th April 18:38
KingGary said:
Chasing Potatoes said:
Define a car then. Wikipedia list it as:
A car, or an automobile, is a motor vehicle with wheels. Most definitions of cars state that they run primarily on roads, seat one to eight people, have four wheels, and mainly transport people, not cargo.
Because I think if you'd listed these:
Smoother
Quieter
Easier to drive
More responsive
More practical (better packaging)
Lower maintenance
Lower fuel costs
for an ICE car you'd be very much saying they're what make it a better car. After all those are often sought-after with any car. It does feel like you're engaged in an ongoing semantic debate to ignore the parts that don't suit you. Today it's that cost must be equal.
Would you not agree affordability and how far you can travel, is fundamental to how good a car is. Or would you say the things you have listed are more important? A car, or an automobile, is a motor vehicle with wheels. Most definitions of cars state that they run primarily on roads, seat one to eight people, have four wheels, and mainly transport people, not cargo.
Because I think if you'd listed these:
Smoother
Quieter
Easier to drive
More responsive
More practical (better packaging)
Lower maintenance
Lower fuel costs
for an ICE car you'd be very much saying they're what make it a better car. After all those are often sought-after with any car. It does feel like you're engaged in an ongoing semantic debate to ignore the parts that don't suit you. Today it's that cost must be equal.
Edited by Chasing Potatoes on Monday 15th April 18:38
a311 said:
I should really just take the plunge and try EV ownership. I WFH and the wife about 2 miles away we've had PHEV for the last 3 years and it's a good compromise I'd say >90% of our journeys are done on full electric. I think 99% of our journeys would be within the range of most EV's however my wife's family are about 250 miles away which is the last barrier to EV ownership as I'm not sure what is available that will have that sort of real world range for fully loaded up journeys with 2 adults, 2 kids 1 dog, luggage and potentially a roof box.
The reality is we stop at least once on this journey so would just have to be a bit more organised to plan a lunch stop somewhere we could get a top up charge. We tend to rent cottages that have a garden for the dog so whenever I take the PHEV I've got a decent extension and take the charger so could just do the same with a full EV. Do the batteries discharge much when they're sat idle? When we go on holiday abroad we park up at the airport and leave the car for the duration, our nearest airports are 200-300 mile round trips so I guess getting off a late night flight and not having enough range to get home is less than ideal.
For you family trip you would likely just plan a stop after 150-180 or so miles (3-4 hrs) and top up enough to get you back to the same charger on the return trip if no destination charging is available. Plenty of EV's that'll do that 200 miles all year round on the motorway at legal speeds.The reality is we stop at least once on this journey so would just have to be a bit more organised to plan a lunch stop somewhere we could get a top up charge. We tend to rent cottages that have a garden for the dog so whenever I take the PHEV I've got a decent extension and take the charger so could just do the same with a full EV. Do the batteries discharge much when they're sat idle? When we go on holiday abroad we park up at the airport and leave the car for the duration, our nearest airports are 200-300 mile round trips so I guess getting off a late night flight and not having enough range to get home is less than ideal.
The discharge thing varies by car, although most will lose very little whilst standing around doing nothing. Will depend on the time of year you are travelling though as will worsen in deep winter due to most using power to keep the batteries within operating temp boundaries.
a311 said:
I should really just take the plunge and try EV ownership. I WFH and the wife about 2 miles away we've had PHEV for the last 3 years and it's a good compromise I'd say >90% of our journeys are done on full electric. I think 99% of our journeys would be within the range of most EV's however my wife's family are about 250 miles away which is the last barrier to EV ownership as I'm not sure what is available that will have that sort of real world range for fully loaded up journeys with 2 adults, 2 kids 1 dog, luggage and potentially a roof box.
The reality is we stop at least once on this journey so would just have to be a bit more organised to plan a lunch stop somewhere we could get a top up charge. We tend to rent cottages that have a garden for the dog so whenever I take the PHEV I've got a decent extension and take the charger so could just do the same with a full EV. Do the batteries discharge much when they're sat idle? When we go on holiday abroad we park up at the airport and leave the car for the duration, our nearest airports are 200-300 mile round trips so I guess getting off a late night flight and not having enough range to get home is less than ideal.
You could rent a cottage which has an EV charger - it's a filter on booking sites now. We did just that last week and worked great. A bit pricey compared to home charging at 50p/kWh vs 7p/kWh, but nothing too scary.The reality is we stop at least once on this journey so would just have to be a bit more organised to plan a lunch stop somewhere we could get a top up charge. We tend to rent cottages that have a garden for the dog so whenever I take the PHEV I've got a decent extension and take the charger so could just do the same with a full EV. Do the batteries discharge much when they're sat idle? When we go on holiday abroad we park up at the airport and leave the car for the duration, our nearest airports are 200-300 mile round trips so I guess getting off a late night flight and not having enough range to get home is less than ideal.
Batteries discharging doesn't seem to be a problem - we lost 1% on our Born which wasn't used for about 2 weeks over Christmas. This might vary between models, but I don't think it's a major issue.
If you're happy to top up whilst having a lunch break than I don't see there being a problem at all with the 250 mile journey to your wife's family. If you'd want to do it in one hit, there would be quite a few EVs that could do it fully loaded etc, it's just the roof box knackering aerodynamics that might be a fly in the ointment!
plfrench said:
a311 said:
I should really just take the plunge and try EV ownership. I WFH and the wife about 2 miles away we've had PHEV for the last 3 years and it's a good compromise I'd say >90% of our journeys are done on full electric. I think 99% of our journeys would be within the range of most EV's however my wife's family are about 250 miles away which is the last barrier to EV ownership as I'm not sure what is available that will have that sort of real world range for fully loaded up journeys with 2 adults, 2 kids 1 dog, luggage and potentially a roof box.
The reality is we stop at least once on this journey so would just have to be a bit more organised to plan a lunch stop somewhere we could get a top up charge. We tend to rent cottages that have a garden for the dog so whenever I take the PHEV I've got a decent extension and take the charger so could just do the same with a full EV. Do the batteries discharge much when they're sat idle? When we go on holiday abroad we park up at the airport and leave the car for the duration, our nearest airports are 200-300 mile round trips so I guess getting off a late night flight and not having enough range to get home is less than ideal.
You could rent a cottage which has an EV charger - it's a filter on booking sites now. We did just that last week and worked great. A bit pricey compared to home charging at 50p/kWh vs 7p/kWh, but nothing too scary.The reality is we stop at least once on this journey so would just have to be a bit more organised to plan a lunch stop somewhere we could get a top up charge. We tend to rent cottages that have a garden for the dog so whenever I take the PHEV I've got a decent extension and take the charger so could just do the same with a full EV. Do the batteries discharge much when they're sat idle? When we go on holiday abroad we park up at the airport and leave the car for the duration, our nearest airports are 200-300 mile round trips so I guess getting off a late night flight and not having enough range to get home is less than ideal.
Batteries discharging doesn't seem to be a problem - we lost 1% on our Born which wasn't used for about 2 weeks over Christmas. This might vary between models, but I don't think it's a major issue.
If you're happy to top up whilst having a lunch break than I don't see there being a problem at all with the 250 mile journey to your wife's family. If you'd want to do it in one hit, there would be quite a few EVs that could do it fully loaded etc, it's just the roof box knackering aerodynamics that might be a fly in the ointment!
Off the back of 2 Volvos I'd probably look at a Polestar. Second hand prices are looking good.
KingGary said:
Would you not agree affordability and how far you can travel, is fundamental to how good a car is. Or would you say the things you have listed are more important?
I can say I have never looked at how far a car can go on a tank of fuel. I didn't with my first proper car the Triumph Herald which could just about manage 150miles and none since. I accept that the proliferation of 24/7 petrol stations may have made be a bit lazy in this regard. I buy a car for my 90% + need. A year or so go I sold my Mercedes C Class estate as I no longer needed an estate and the diesel engine was not at all suited to my short journey profile. It was replaced with an i3s. I could easily have gone for a Tesla with a much longer range but it was discounted as unnecessary. If I had a regular journey need of 250mile + each way a Tesla may well have been my choice.
It will never be an ICE again as I have no need to tow a caravan or horse box.
cerb4.5lee said:
My biggest gripe with them is that they've actually took us backwards rather than forwards. Progress should make things better/easier I think, but EVs just don't work like that though in my opinion.
They will never be better than ICE for me, different yes, better...definitely not as you say.
They will never be better than ICE for me, different yes, better...definitely not as you say.
How many billions have been spent on lower urban emissions, smoother gear changes, faster acceleration, lower noise and vibration? (Oh and finding ways to defrost windscreens quickly!)
All things that are inherently better in EVs with little or no effort.
KingGary said:
Would you not agree affordability and how far you can travel, is fundamental to how good a car is. Or would you say the things you have listed are more important?
Would you say a Ferrari 488 is a good car? If so, why. If not, why not. I pick that because it’s neither affordable or has huge range. When you answer that I’ll reply to the points you made.
Edited by Chasing Potatoes on Monday 15th April 19:20
Evanivitch said:
cerb4.5lee said:
My biggest gripe with them is that they've actually took us backwards rather than forwards. Progress should make things better/easier I think, but EVs just don't work like that though in my opinion.
They will never be better than ICE for me, different yes, better...definitely not as you say.
They will never be better than ICE for me, different yes, better...definitely not as you say.
How many billions have been spent on lower urban emissions, smoother gear changes, faster acceleration, lower noise and vibration? (Oh and finding ways to defrost windscreens quickly!)
All things that are inherently better in EVs with little or no effort.
Poor range, and having to faff around planning long journeys...hoping that chargers work/are available etc in an EV in comparison to ICE. So EVs have actually put us backwards in many ways for me.
We at least still do have a choice though, so all you do is pick the one that you like the most/much prefer I reckon.
cerb4.5lee said:
You knew what I meant!
Poor range, and having to faff around planning long journeys...hoping that chargers work/are available etc in an EV in comparison to ICE. So EVs have actually put us backwards in many ways for me.
We at least still do have a choice though, so all you do is pick the one that you like the most/much prefer I reckon.
My car does 200 miles on the motorway. I do 120 mile journeys most weeks, 300 mile day trips monthly. I stop at services, I plug in, execute bodily functions, I drive off...Poor range, and having to faff around planning long journeys...hoping that chargers work/are available etc in an EV in comparison to ICE. So EVs have actually put us backwards in many ways for me.
We at least still do have a choice though, so all you do is pick the one that you like the most/much prefer I reckon.
Chasing Potatoes said:
KingGary said:
Would you not agree affordability and how far you can travel, is fundamental to how good a car is. Or would you say the things you have listed are more important?
Would you say a Ferrari 488 is a good car? If so, why. If not, why not. I pick that because it’s neither affordable or has huge range. When you answer that I’ll reply to the points you made.
Edited by Chasing Potatoes on Monday 15th April 19:20
distinctivedesign said:
I have gone back to ICE.
I tried hard with EV's - having had three,
Nothing against EVs but I don’t think the technology is quite there yet. Appreciate some people will disagree. I tried hard with EV's - having had three,
KingGary said:
really don’t mind if you reply or not, it was a rhetorical question. My point is there’s a reason why this guy gave up - he couldn’t make it work for him. Your obscure references to Ferraris isn’t really relevant.
You asked what makes a good car and then bizarrely decided factors which contribute are instead ‘characteristics’ that somehow don’t count when it’s an EV but do when it’s an ICE. I put the Ferrari as an example because it clearly satisfies neither of the ‘characteristics’ you suddenly decided make a good car.
No-one is claiming his experience isn’t valid for him. What is odd is your constant bait and switch that don’t stand up to simple scrutiny.
samoht said:
I'm only a few months in, but I can't imagine not having an EV as a daily in future. They're just such a nice way of travelling, and while not as cheap as a banger they're cheaper to run than anything 'nice', and nicer than anything 'cheap'.
I love that phrase, "cheaper to run than anything nice, and nicer than anything cheap"!Our family's "fleet" recently acquired a basic EV, and yes I love driving it on short to medium length journeys. But we recently made a longer trip, and the stress of nearly running out of power was immense when I realised we'd be totally stuck, with no chance of walking to the charge station and carrying some back in a can.
Chasing Potatoes said:
KingGary said:
really don’t mind if you reply or not, it was a rhetorical question. My point is there’s a reason why this guy gave up - he couldn’t make it work for him. Your obscure references to Ferraris isn’t really relevant.
You asked what makes a good car and then bizarrely decided factors which contribute are instead ‘characteristics’ that somehow don’t count when it’s an EV but do when it’s an ICE. I put the Ferrari as an example because it clearly satisfies neither of the ‘characteristics’ you suddenly decided make a good car.
No-one is claiming his experience isn’t valid for him. What is odd is your constant bait and switch that don’t stand up to simple scrutiny.
As for my question being rhetorical:
Dictionary said:
“a question, asked in order to make a statement, that does not expect an answer”
If you actually think this:
“ Would you not agree affordability and how far you can travel, is fundamental to how good a car is. Or would you say the things you have listed are more important?”
was rhetorical then I have a bridge to sell you. Not least because you responded to a list of factors that you found it convenient to pretend don’t also exist.
Utility and price are far from the only factors present with car buying. You’re making the classic mistake of thinking that markets are monolithic.
I note that you’re now trying to zero in on the ‘average Joe’ to narrow your narrative. It’s transparent.
“ Would you not agree affordability and how far you can travel, is fundamental to how good a car is. Or would you say the things you have listed are more important?”
was rhetorical then I have a bridge to sell you. Not least because you responded to a list of factors that you found it convenient to pretend don’t also exist.
Utility and price are far from the only factors present with car buying. You’re making the classic mistake of thinking that markets are monolithic.
I note that you’re now trying to zero in on the ‘average Joe’ to narrow your narrative. It’s transparent.
I spent a great day pounding round Silverstone in a 911, great car for the job, does things an EV can’t.
Tomorrow I’ll be driving to work early in an EV, great car, does things an ICE vehicle (even a 911) can’t.
It’s horses for courses, however increasing numbers of those courses favour the EV.
Tomorrow I’ll be driving to work early in an EV, great car, does things an ICE vehicle (even a 911) can’t.
It’s horses for courses, however increasing numbers of those courses favour the EV.
Chasing Potatoes said:
If you actually think this:
“ Would you not agree affordability and how far you can travel, is fundamental to how good a car is. Or would you say the things you have listed are more important?”
was rhetorical then I have a bridge to sell you. Not least because you responded to a list of factors that you found it convenient to pretend don’t also exist.
Utility and price are far from the only factors present with car buying. You’re making the classic mistake of thinking that markets are monolithic.
I note that you’re now trying to zero in on the ‘average Joe’ to narrow your narrative. It’s transparent.
What are you going on about?“ Would you not agree affordability and how far you can travel, is fundamental to how good a car is. Or would you say the things you have listed are more important?”
was rhetorical then I have a bridge to sell you. Not least because you responded to a list of factors that you found it convenient to pretend don’t also exist.
Utility and price are far from the only factors present with car buying. You’re making the classic mistake of thinking that markets are monolithic.
I note that you’re now trying to zero in on the ‘average Joe’ to narrow your narrative. It’s transparent.
(another rhetorical question - please don’t try and answer)
KingGary said:
Would you not agree affordability and how far you can travel, is fundamental to how good a car is. Or would you say the things you have listed are more important?
As mentioned earlier, used EV's are ridiculous value compared to their ICE equivalents at the moment, so surely that's affordability well and truly sorted once you consider running costs as well?How far you can travel is meaningless in this context. You can travel as far as you want in an EV assuming you're willing to stop after 2-300 miles (4-6 hours) to re-charge. And dependent on the owner that could be an incredibly rare occurrence.
Chasing Potatoes said:
Dear me
Painful isn't it?Edited by SWoll on Monday 15th April 20:53
a311 said:
Cheers (and to others that took the time to respond to my post). I plan to keep my current PHEV another 12 months then may take the plunge. We don't currently have a roof box as our kids are at an age where we get away with putting some soft luggage in the foot wells where they sit which ee wont get away with when they'rea bit older. It's getting a dog that's really screwed things up space wise on long trips.
Off the back of 2 Volvos I'd probably look at a Polestar. Second hand prices are looking good.
Off the back of 2 Volvos I'd probably look at a Polestar. Second hand prices are looking good.
We actually ended up taking two cars with us for this reason (well dog plus son who has a lot of mobility gear and a large trike). That flummoxed their charging set up - although it was a 2 port 7kW charger, I don't think anyone had tried charging two cars on it simultaneously before and it tripped out when I tried it! At home, if there isn't enough capacity, it will throttle back one of the chargers, but here it was putting 7kW into both for a minute or two before the whole lot shut down! It might have been the Yorkshire cottage electrics weren't quite up to the job...Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff