VW seems to be panicking...
Discussion
dxg said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/09/14/vo...
Volkswagen is cutting almost 300 roles at a factory in Germany as demand for electric cars dwindles.
The redundancies are being carried out at the car giant’s plant in Zwickau, where a further 2,000 temporary workers are also at risk of losing their jobs.
Volkswagen’s Zwickau factory only produces electric vehicles, which have fallen in popularity due to high inflation and faltering government support.
The job cuts, which were first reported by the German press agency DPA, come as the company prepares for an influx of cheaper electric cars from China.
While purchases of electric vehicles have been strong in the past few years, manufacturers fear customers are being increasingly put off because they are too expensive.
Nice spin from The Telegraph. I presume they means there is dwindling demand for their cars, as well they’re a bit crap. And overpriced.Volkswagen is cutting almost 300 roles at a factory in Germany as demand for electric cars dwindles.
The redundancies are being carried out at the car giant’s plant in Zwickau, where a further 2,000 temporary workers are also at risk of losing their jobs.
Volkswagen’s Zwickau factory only produces electric vehicles, which have fallen in popularity due to high inflation and faltering government support.
The job cuts, which were first reported by the German press agency DPA, come as the company prepares for an influx of cheaper electric cars from China.
While purchases of electric vehicles have been strong in the past few years, manufacturers fear customers are being increasingly put off because they are too expensive.
DonkeyApple said:
This is an excellent article from the BBC that finally covers many of the factors that we have been discussing for years on PH.
Very unusually for the BBC these days the article doesn't collapse into hang wringing and at no point touches on the dull claptrap but is an old fashioned article that touches on the key points, observations and how the U.K. moves forward.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66820791
The key is that it shows the fork in the road the U.K. finds itself at with the EU, whether we join them in continuing to try and lock out cheaper Chinese goods by excessive regulation, massive funding of right wing lobby groups or whether we deal with the fallout of an angered EU and seize the absolutely enormous competitive advantage the U.K. has of not having the burden of a legacy 20th century manufacturing base at that cars for most are nothing different from fridges, TVs and to be acquired from whomever demands the least amount of GBP to be taken from the U.K.
The article also touches on an aspect that is massively overlooked which is that there is a huge rift forming between France and Germany as Germany is hugely in bed with China as it plans to build most of its cheapest cars for the U.K. and EU in China while also selling its most expensive cars in China. France doesn't have those same ties but also is mainly producing cars at the bottom of the market exactly where price sensitive Western consumers are and the precise consumers who will jump to cheaper but equally good products.
I agree, but the essential question is still not being asked.Very unusually for the BBC these days the article doesn't collapse into hang wringing and at no point touches on the dull claptrap but is an old fashioned article that touches on the key points, observations and how the U.K. moves forward.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66820791
The key is that it shows the fork in the road the U.K. finds itself at with the EU, whether we join them in continuing to try and lock out cheaper Chinese goods by excessive regulation, massive funding of right wing lobby groups or whether we deal with the fallout of an angered EU and seize the absolutely enormous competitive advantage the U.K. has of not having the burden of a legacy 20th century manufacturing base at that cars for most are nothing different from fridges, TVs and to be acquired from whomever demands the least amount of GBP to be taken from the U.K.
The article also touches on an aspect that is massively overlooked which is that there is a huge rift forming between France and Germany as Germany is hugely in bed with China as it plans to build most of its cheapest cars for the U.K. and EU in China while also selling its most expensive cars in China. France doesn't have those same ties but also is mainly producing cars at the bottom of the market exactly where price sensitive Western consumers are and the precise consumers who will jump to cheaper but equally good products.
Who is planning to deal with the question of the deterioration or the complete failure of battery banks in these cars ?
Otherwise, due to their high cost and unique design for each model, do we write off the complete value of the car over the likely period to battery failure ?
Are batteries recyclable at a cost significantly less than the cost of a new battery ?
How will we recover the materials from old batteries that are required for new ones ?
What are the differentiating factors in battery sustainability between european and chinese manufacturers ?
????
ChrisW. said:
I agree, but the essential question is still not being asked.
Who is planning to deal with the question of the deterioration or the complete failure of battery banks in these cars ?
Otherwise, due to their high cost and unique design for each model, do we write off the complete value of the car over the likely period to battery failure ?
Are batteries recyclable at a cost significantly less than the cost of a new battery ?
How will we recover the materials from old batteries that are required for new ones ?
What are the differentiating factors in battery sustainability between european and chinese manufacturers ?
????
It's the elephant in the room. Who is planning to deal with the question of the deterioration or the complete failure of battery banks in these cars ?
Otherwise, due to their high cost and unique design for each model, do we write off the complete value of the car over the likely period to battery failure ?
Are batteries recyclable at a cost significantly less than the cost of a new battery ?
How will we recover the materials from old batteries that are required for new ones ?
What are the differentiating factors in battery sustainability between european and chinese manufacturers ?
????
Can Lithium batteries be fully recycled? Yes.
Is it remotely cost effective? No.
Most importantly, has it been decided who bears the cost of future recycling? Not yet.
Have there been a few start-ups in the last couple of years gearing up to recycle once governments have decided between them who has to pay? Yes.
So is it a solvable problem? Absolutely. But deciding who pays for it needs to happen quickly now.
The burden really needs lie with the car manufacturer. The only real way to do it is for the manufacturer to lodge funds up front with the local government at the initial point of sale of their car. Don't pay and you can't sell the goods. Any other systems opens the door to non payment and attempting to collect across geopolitical borders, like TfL chasing the US govt for CCZ payments and parking fines etc.
The other issue is that the battery industry is investing very heavily in finding viable alternatives to the current chemistry and chemical bricks altogether so at any point in the medium term cars will end up with different batteries and that would blow up the commercials for recycling Lithium cells as that viability is reliant on massive and growing volumes.
Does any of this present a logical reason to deviate from the current path? No. Should we ever trust the likes of VW, repeated, proven liars with dishonesty genetically inherent from the Board down? Never.
page3 said:
dxg said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/09/14/vo...
Volkswagen is cutting almost 300 roles at a factory in Germany as demand for electric cars dwindles.
The redundancies are being carried out at the car giant’s plant in Zwickau, where a further 2,000 temporary workers are also at risk of losing their jobs.
Volkswagen’s Zwickau factory only produces electric vehicles, which have fallen in popularity due to high inflation and faltering government support.
The job cuts, which were first reported by the German press agency DPA, come as the company prepares for an influx of cheaper electric cars from China.
While purchases of electric vehicles have been strong in the past few years, manufacturers fear customers are being increasingly put off because they are too expensive.
Nice spin from The Telegraph. I presume they means there is dwindling demand for their cars, as well they’re a bit crap. And overpriced.Volkswagen is cutting almost 300 roles at a factory in Germany as demand for electric cars dwindles.
The redundancies are being carried out at the car giant’s plant in Zwickau, where a further 2,000 temporary workers are also at risk of losing their jobs.
Volkswagen’s Zwickau factory only produces electric vehicles, which have fallen in popularity due to high inflation and faltering government support.
The job cuts, which were first reported by the German press agency DPA, come as the company prepares for an influx of cheaper electric cars from China.
While purchases of electric vehicles have been strong in the past few years, manufacturers fear customers are being increasingly put off because they are too expensive.
"Volkswagen has bought nearly 5% of Chinese electric vehicle maker Xpeng for $700 million and agreed a strategic partnership to develop two new models as it attempts to reverse a decline in sales in the world’s biggest car market".
https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/27/cars/china-volkswag...
autumnsum said:
...
Reminds me of Nokia.
Whilst I'm not sure your typical VW buyer needs or even wants 60mph in 3secs, this is a very good analogy.Reminds me of Nokia.
I think it applies to a number of traditional manufacturers.
For VW, they need to up the ante on quality and dependability IMO. From what I've heard, things like their software ae doing the opposite.
Murph7355 said:
autumnsum said:
...
Reminds me of Nokia.
Whilst I'm not sure your typical VW buyer needs or even wants 60mph in 3secs, this is a very good analogy.Reminds me of Nokia.
I think it applies to a number of traditional manufacturers.
For VW, they need to up the ante on quality and dependability IMO. From what I've heard, things like their software ae doing the opposite.
And not everyone wants a Korean or Chinese badge.
I was thinking of creating a thread on it but I found Toyota’s announcement (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-electric) quite interesting that they will bring out EVs with massively improved battery tech in 2-3 years time. And perhaps so is everyone else even if they’re not saying it. That’s a company that is not too worried about not selling any EVs for two years. Maybe “today” is not the real battle if you have a whole bunch of other cars to sell to the other 85% of the market.
I was thinking of creating a thread on it but I found Toyota’s announcement (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-electric) quite interesting that they will bring out EVs with massively improved battery tech in 2-3 years time. And perhaps so is everyone else even if they’re not saying it. That’s a company that is not too worried about not selling any EVs for two years. Maybe “today” is not the real battle if you have a whole bunch of other cars to sell to the other 85% of the market.
Murph7355 said:
autumnsum said:
...
Reminds me of Nokia.
Whilst I'm not sure your typical VW buyer needs or even wants 60mph in 3secs, this is a very good analogy.Reminds me of Nokia.
I think it applies to a number of traditional manufacturers.
For VW, they need to up the ante on quality and dependability IMO. From what I've heard, things like their software ae doing the opposite.
It's being destroyed by the Chinese who also now make cars for the people, more people, more cheaply and just as well built. Also for far less than VW can, despite manufacturing in china themselves.
They need to go upmarket with the VW brand or just focus on Audi/Porsche/seat and continue to differentiate those brands from what the Chinese are doing - which is literally cars for the people.
Trying to make a sensible, sober persons range of ID. cars fits perfectly with their heritage but also fits hopelessly in the modern world of super zippy EV's and sub £25k Chinese family EV's. Too expensive, not enough driver appeal.
If you were playing EV top trumps and you got an ID3 card, you'd be f
ked.https://youtu.be/s2xrarUWVRQ
Maybe this is where recycling after re-purposing old car batteries starts ?
Maybe this is where recycling after re-purposing old car batteries starts ?
ChrisW. said:
https://youtu.be/s2xrarUWVRQ
Maybe this is where recycling after re-purposing old car batteries starts ?
The trouble is that that video is more of a propaganda piece than the factual reality it is attempting to pretend to be. Maybe this is where recycling after re-purposing old car batteries starts ?
Crushing the old batteries and filtering out the compounds by water is the easy bit. It's also the cheap bit. And the non polluting bit.
But that factory does not output any raw materials it is merely the initial separating plant.
The video, if you're not careful, gives the impression that those batteries you see are being recycled. They aren't. The clue lies right at the end where the presenter explains that the black mass is actually sent away for processing and recycling. He then says that the plant for doing that work has not yet been constructed let alone recycling anything. Why? Because unfortunately, freshly mined Li is cleaner and cheaper than the heavy chemical processes to extract the metals back out from the compounds it is trapped in in the black mass.
That's the hurdle. It is not cost effective to recycle so someone has to pay. As no one has yet been delegated to stump up the cash the industry, even after the last 5 years, still stalls at the actual point of starting the recycling and is just burning investor cash running a basic sorting plant and pumping out promotional content.
We will get there, we have to and the chemistry to extract the minerals and elements is all known and straightforward but it's not happening yet as it's not commercially viable and it's not yet been decided who pays.
I suspect that most Li cells that aren't crushed and burned are still being dumped at sea off West Africa along with all our fridges, TVs and Rolf Harris Stylophones. All with stamps in the paperwork that prove none of it has been tipped overboard.
Murph7355 said:
autumnsum said:
...
Reminds me of Nokia.
Whilst I'm not sure your typical VW buyer needs or even wants 60mph in 3secs, this is a very good analogy.Reminds me of Nokia.
I think it applies to a number of traditional manufacturers.
For VW, they need to up the ante on quality and dependability IMO. From what I've heard, things like their software ae doing the opposite.
Same happened in the phone market & let’s not talk about British Leyland & all the other dogs.
Move/change or get left behind!
jason61c said:
VW are no longer seen or actually are making 'premium' products. they're now behind Kia and even BYD. Lower prices, higher quality are whats needed.
Simple as that then 
Good look beating the Chinese and Koreans on value..
I wouldn't say VW were ever about 'premium' as a brand. They were traditionally a sensible persons middle ground between spending too little and spending too much. The far East companies are far better able to deliver that sort of value today though.
The world order is shifting constantly. I don't think VW can deliver upon their brands usp and heritage anymore. Their sub brands can by appealing to more niche markets - but VW can no longer make the thinking persons 'car for the people' at a competitive price. It's impossible.
Puzzles said:
There’s no reason why vw can’t produce compelling cars.
They can, via Porsche, Audi, Cupra, Skoda...they can create compelling cars via those brandsBut as a vw a car is expected to do everything proficiently, reliably, at a sensible price. The Chinese can now replicate that at a more sensible price.
They could in theory change the USP of 'VW' but that's tricky given that their name literally promises a focus on cars for the masses...
TheDeuce said:
jason61c said:
VW are no longer seen or actually are making 'premium' products. they're now behind Kia and even BYD. Lower prices, higher quality are whats needed.
Simple as that then Good look beating the Chinese and Koreans on value..
I wouldn't say VW were ever about 'premium' as a brand. They were traditionally a sensible persons middle ground between spending too little and spending too much. The far East companies are far better able to deliver that sort of value today though.
The world order is shifting constantly. I don't think VW can deliver upon their brands usp and heritage anymore. Their sub brands can by appealing to more niche markets - but VW can no longer make the thinking persons 'car for the people' at a competitive price. It's impossible.
TheDeuce said:
Puzzles said:
There’s no reason why vw can’t produce compelling cars.
They can, via Porsche, Audi, Cupra, Skoda...they can create compelling cars via those brandsBut as a vw a car is expected to do everything proficiently, reliably, at a sensible price. The Chinese can now replicate that at a more sensible price.
They could in theory change the USP of 'VW' but that's tricky given that their name literally promises a focus on cars for the masses...
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