EVs and In Gear Acceleration vs ICE
Discussion
Nomme de Plum said:
TheDeuce said:
There's no throttle to control 
But yes I agree with the sentiment here - as an EV driver you do have to drive very differently if you have passengers. As a lone driver, I love surging out of each corner/junction/traffic lights... But whilst it's very easy to do, and satisfying to make such neat and rapid progress as a driver... It's unpleasant for passengers.
The absolute worst is EV drivers that use one pedal driving with passengers, because the car switches from power to braking force in a binary way = the car pitches forward each time!
I'm aware of these things as I'm often a passenger in electric airport cars, also I have 20+ years of ICE manual driving experience. I wonder if the future generation of EV only drivers will worry about offering a smooth ride?? Possibly not, they might just think it's 'normal' to drive in a binary on/off fashion
Surely driving smoothly is a function of the drivers ability and consideration for passengers. It is true than an EV may expose a lack of ability that an ICE may help to mask but jerky driving is jerky driving. I'm sure we've all been with someone who can't work through the gears or decelerate in smooth fashion. But yes I agree with the sentiment here - as an EV driver you do have to drive very differently if you have passengers. As a lone driver, I love surging out of each corner/junction/traffic lights... But whilst it's very easy to do, and satisfying to make such neat and rapid progress as a driver... It's unpleasant for passengers.
The absolute worst is EV drivers that use one pedal driving with passengers, because the car switches from power to braking force in a binary way = the car pitches forward each time!
I'm aware of these things as I'm often a passenger in electric airport cars, also I have 20+ years of ICE manual driving experience. I wonder if the future generation of EV only drivers will worry about offering a smooth ride?? Possibly not, they might just think it's 'normal' to drive in a binary on/off fashion
Also it was always impossible in a typical road car to get straight on the brakes after leaving the power, unless left foot braking. The pause was effectively enforced. With OPD it's not - and most drivers that love OPD likely aren't aware of what it feels like as a passenger.
Nomme de Plum said:
TheDeuce said:
There's no throttle to control
But yes I agree with the sentiment here - as an EV driver you do have to drive very differently if you have passengers. As a lone driver, I love surging out of each corner/junction/traffic lights... But whilst it's very easy to do, and satisfying to make such neat and rapid progress as a driver... It's unpleasant for passengers.
The absolute worst is EV drivers that use one pedal driving with passengers, because the car switches from power to braking force in a binary way = the car pitches forward each time!
I'm aware of these things as I'm often a passenger in electric airport cars, also I have 20+ years of ICE manual driving experience. I wonder if the future generation of EV only drivers will worry about offering a smooth ride?? Possibly not, they might just think it's 'normal' to drive in a binary on/off fashion
Surely driving smoothly is a function of the drivers ability and consideration for passengers. It is true than an EV may expose a lack of ability that an ICE may help to mask but jerky driving is jerky driving. I'm sure we've all been with someone who can't work through the gears or decelerate in smooth fashion. But yes I agree with the sentiment here - as an EV driver you do have to drive very differently if you have passengers. As a lone driver, I love surging out of each corner/junction/traffic lights... But whilst it's very easy to do, and satisfying to make such neat and rapid progress as a driver... It's unpleasant for passengers.
The absolute worst is EV drivers that use one pedal driving with passengers, because the car switches from power to braking force in a binary way = the car pitches forward each time!
I'm aware of these things as I'm often a passenger in electric airport cars, also I have 20+ years of ICE manual driving experience. I wonder if the future generation of EV only drivers will worry about offering a smooth ride?? Possibly not, they might just think it's 'normal' to drive in a binary on/off fashion
I hate one pedal driving becuase it takes so much concentration to keep things smooth. I much prefer a car that coasts.
My Model 3 i have set to chill mode and low regen most of the time. That's fine as it seems to judge the regen quite well. It brings the car to a stop at low speed nicely, but doesn't feel like throwing a parachute out of the window at high speed.
In standard mode the throttle is quite sensitive and you're never far away from manic acceleration. It's a bit like a sports bike in 1st or 2nd gear being held back in a 30mph limit - it's raring to go. And the normal regen is way too much for me. If both of those settings are turned on then it could make for an uncomfortable passenger ride.
My mum drives like that. Constantly making little unnecessary adjustments like a nervous tick. Acclerating a bit, then decelerating, touching the brakes ready for a roundabout 1 mile away. It's infuriating.
My EV (KIA) has different regen settings which you change using paddles and also different ‘throttle’ maps with a pair of buttons on the wheel.
I put it in normal/ sport with middle regen out on the open road (reserving GT for special occasions) then when I reach London I flip into eco and max regen=1 pedal which allows you to cruise/ creep through traffic really smoothly)
It works very well and adds to the enjoyment of driving the EV.
It’s also why I think people who say that EVs lack driver involvement either haven’t driven one or just haven’t driven a good one.
I put it in normal/ sport with middle regen out on the open road (reserving GT for special occasions) then when I reach London I flip into eco and max regen=1 pedal which allows you to cruise/ creep through traffic really smoothly)
It works very well and adds to the enjoyment of driving the EV.
It’s also why I think people who say that EVs lack driver involvement either haven’t driven one or just haven’t driven a good one.
740EVTORQUES said:
My EV (KIA) has different regen settings which you change using paddles and also different ‘throttle’ maps with a pair of buttons on the wheel.
I put it in normal/ sport with middle regen out on the open road (reserving GT for special occasions) then when I reach London I flip into eco and max regen=1 pedal which allows you to cruise/ creep through traffic really smoothly)
It works very well and adds to the enjoyment of driving the EV.
It’s also why I think people who say that EVs lack driver involvement either haven’t driven one or just haven’t driven a good one.
Most people that don't like EV's probably haven't driven one - certainly not long enough to get used a new type of powertrain and discover if they really could like it...I put it in normal/ sport with middle regen out on the open road (reserving GT for special occasions) then when I reach London I flip into eco and max regen=1 pedal which allows you to cruise/ creep through traffic really smoothly)
It works very well and adds to the enjoyment of driving the EV.
It’s also why I think people who say that EVs lack driver involvement either haven’t driven one or just haven’t driven a good one.
Also most people that think the charger network is hopeless don't use it.
Most people that worry about range anxiety don't drive an EV, they just read about it in the DM
Some people without an EV are kept awake at night fretting about replacing the batteries in the EV they don't own and don't like.
It's remarkable for a type of car to have such a long list of failings that only effect those that don't have one
LowTread said:
I recognise the potential environmental benefits, but TBH that's about 5th or 6th on the list of reasons why i love the Model 3. If i was to pick any car to replace it with out of anything available i'd pick a newer Model 3.
Fecking Sue! I'd rather shoot myself in the head than have to drive a Model 3 to be honest! 
It is a bloody good thing that we are different I reckon for sure.
TheRainMaker said:
TheDeuce said:
The absolute worst is EV drivers that use one pedal driving with passengers, because the car switches from power to braking force in a binary way = the car pitches forward each time!
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. If you can drive properly and have good pedal control, they should be smooth.Evanivitch said:
TheRainMaker said:
TheDeuce said:
The absolute worst is EV drivers that use one pedal driving with passengers, because the car switches from power to braking force in a binary way = the car pitches forward each time!
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. If you can drive properly and have good pedal control, they should be smooth.I'm not saying the same can't be achieved with OPD by good drivers, however I have never been a passenger in an EV and not been aware if the driver is using OPD. I suspect chiefly because as a driver, they're predicating the braking movement of the car so it feels less obvious.
LowTread said:
I raced a caterham on and off for 10 years between 2004 and 2014, collecting a fair few trophies on the way. So i entirely agree with the sentiment that it's on the track where you can really measure the difference between drivers. The consistent environment and closely matched cars guarantees that.
I've also done many, many trackdays over the years. Mostly these have either been in various track prepped Mk1/Mk2 MX5s, or in a Clio 200. I've done plenty of trackdays in the caterhams i've had too, as well as a bike engined kit car that was absolutely bonkers.
So my history is with light weight, agile, engaging cars.
I'm also a motorbike enthusiast, having owned dozens of different bikes over the years. There's nothing quite so intimate as giving a sports bike a proper thrashing round some challenging bends. So a similar history there of preferring engagement and agility.
IMO anything bigger than a Renaultsport Clio is getting a bit chunky to properly enjoy on the road. I had an M2 as a road car, and it felt a bit big and disconnected. Tried an FK8 civic too and that was a bit better but still too big. People claiming that a 300+bhp ICE is way more engaging than a 300+bhp EV are kidding themselves. They're both too heavy and too powerful enjoy on the road in terms of handling/agility.
I came to the conclusion that chasing what i wanted in something suitable for daily driving was a fools errand, so have split it and have an Elise and motorbike in the garage.
And you'd have to peel my Tesla Model 3 out of my cold, dead hands to get it off me as a daily driver. Yes it's not as agile as some road cars, but to get the level of agility where i'd really start enjoying myself i'd have to drive something like a Renaultsport Clio and that would drive me insane day-to-day.
The way the Tesla drives is sporty enough in driving position and size that to my mind it's not too dissimilar to the sporty BMWs i've had in the past.
But the way it leaps up the road is just hilarious. Just doing the school run is fun because of the way it launches. Kids love it, whereas they hated the hard ride in the M2 and Clio.
That's coming from someone that's not an EV lover. I think for the most part they're pretty f'ugly and depressingly boring looking things.
I recognise the potential environmental benefits, but TBH that's about 5th or 6th on the list of reasons why i love the Model 3. If i was to pick any car to replace it with out of anything available i'd pick a newer Model 3.
Are you my brother from another mother?? (ex Caterham (x2) owner, trackday enthusiast and current Motorcyclist).I've also done many, many trackdays over the years. Mostly these have either been in various track prepped Mk1/Mk2 MX5s, or in a Clio 200. I've done plenty of trackdays in the caterhams i've had too, as well as a bike engined kit car that was absolutely bonkers.
So my history is with light weight, agile, engaging cars.
I'm also a motorbike enthusiast, having owned dozens of different bikes over the years. There's nothing quite so intimate as giving a sports bike a proper thrashing round some challenging bends. So a similar history there of preferring engagement and agility.
IMO anything bigger than a Renaultsport Clio is getting a bit chunky to properly enjoy on the road. I had an M2 as a road car, and it felt a bit big and disconnected. Tried an FK8 civic too and that was a bit better but still too big. People claiming that a 300+bhp ICE is way more engaging than a 300+bhp EV are kidding themselves. They're both too heavy and too powerful enjoy on the road in terms of handling/agility.
I came to the conclusion that chasing what i wanted in something suitable for daily driving was a fools errand, so have split it and have an Elise and motorbike in the garage.
And you'd have to peel my Tesla Model 3 out of my cold, dead hands to get it off me as a daily driver. Yes it's not as agile as some road cars, but to get the level of agility where i'd really start enjoying myself i'd have to drive something like a Renaultsport Clio and that would drive me insane day-to-day.
The way the Tesla drives is sporty enough in driving position and size that to my mind it's not too dissimilar to the sporty BMWs i've had in the past.
But the way it leaps up the road is just hilarious. Just doing the school run is fun because of the way it launches. Kids love it, whereas they hated the hard ride in the M2 and Clio.
That's coming from someone that's not an EV lover. I think for the most part they're pretty f'ugly and depressingly boring looking things.
I recognise the potential environmental benefits, but TBH that's about 5th or 6th on the list of reasons why i love the Model 3. If i was to pick any car to replace it with out of anything available i'd pick a newer Model 3.
Edited by LowTread on Tuesday 19th March 10:35
I 100% agree with everything you said.
ghibbett said:
LowTread said:
I raced a caterham on and off for 10 years between 2004 and 2014, collecting a fair few trophies on the way. So i entirely agree with the sentiment that it's on the track where you can really measure the difference between drivers. The consistent environment and closely matched cars guarantees that.
I've also done many, many trackdays over the years. Mostly these have either been in various track prepped Mk1/Mk2 MX5s, or in a Clio 200. I've done plenty of trackdays in the caterhams i've had too, as well as a bike engined kit car that was absolutely bonkers.
So my history is with light weight, agile, engaging cars.
I'm also a motorbike enthusiast, having owned dozens of different bikes over the years. There's nothing quite so intimate as giving a sports bike a proper thrashing round some challenging bends. So a similar history there of preferring engagement and agility.
IMO anything bigger than a Renaultsport Clio is getting a bit chunky to properly enjoy on the road. I had an M2 as a road car, and it felt a bit big and disconnected. Tried an FK8 civic too and that was a bit better but still too big. People claiming that a 300+bhp ICE is way more engaging than a 300+bhp EV are kidding themselves. They're both too heavy and too powerful enjoy on the road in terms of handling/agility.
I came to the conclusion that chasing what i wanted in something suitable for daily driving was a fools errand, so have split it and have an Elise and motorbike in the garage.
And you'd have to peel my Tesla Model 3 out of my cold, dead hands to get it off me as a daily driver. Yes it's not as agile as some road cars, but to get the level of agility where i'd really start enjoying myself i'd have to drive something like a Renaultsport Clio and that would drive me insane day-to-day.
The way the Tesla drives is sporty enough in driving position and size that to my mind it's not too dissimilar to the sporty BMWs i've had in the past.
But the way it leaps up the road is just hilarious. Just doing the school run is fun because of the way it launches. Kids love it, whereas they hated the hard ride in the M2 and Clio.
That's coming from someone that's not an EV lover. I think for the most part they're pretty f'ugly and depressingly boring looking things.
I recognise the potential environmental benefits, but TBH that's about 5th or 6th on the list of reasons why i love the Model 3. If i was to pick any car to replace it with out of anything available i'd pick a newer Model 3.
Are you my brother from another mother?? (ex Caterham (x2) owner, trackday enthusiast and current Motorcyclist).I've also done many, many trackdays over the years. Mostly these have either been in various track prepped Mk1/Mk2 MX5s, or in a Clio 200. I've done plenty of trackdays in the caterhams i've had too, as well as a bike engined kit car that was absolutely bonkers.
So my history is with light weight, agile, engaging cars.
I'm also a motorbike enthusiast, having owned dozens of different bikes over the years. There's nothing quite so intimate as giving a sports bike a proper thrashing round some challenging bends. So a similar history there of preferring engagement and agility.
IMO anything bigger than a Renaultsport Clio is getting a bit chunky to properly enjoy on the road. I had an M2 as a road car, and it felt a bit big and disconnected. Tried an FK8 civic too and that was a bit better but still too big. People claiming that a 300+bhp ICE is way more engaging than a 300+bhp EV are kidding themselves. They're both too heavy and too powerful enjoy on the road in terms of handling/agility.
I came to the conclusion that chasing what i wanted in something suitable for daily driving was a fools errand, so have split it and have an Elise and motorbike in the garage.
And you'd have to peel my Tesla Model 3 out of my cold, dead hands to get it off me as a daily driver. Yes it's not as agile as some road cars, but to get the level of agility where i'd really start enjoying myself i'd have to drive something like a Renaultsport Clio and that would drive me insane day-to-day.
The way the Tesla drives is sporty enough in driving position and size that to my mind it's not too dissimilar to the sporty BMWs i've had in the past.
But the way it leaps up the road is just hilarious. Just doing the school run is fun because of the way it launches. Kids love it, whereas they hated the hard ride in the M2 and Clio.
That's coming from someone that's not an EV lover. I think for the most part they're pretty f'ugly and depressingly boring looking things.
I recognise the potential environmental benefits, but TBH that's about 5th or 6th on the list of reasons why i love the Model 3. If i was to pick any car to replace it with out of anything available i'd pick a newer Model 3.
Edited by LowTread on Tuesday 19th March 10:35
I 100% agree with everything you said.
cerb4.5lee said:
LowTread said:
I recognise the potential environmental benefits, but TBH that's about 5th or 6th on the list of reasons why i love the Model 3. If i was to pick any car to replace it with out of anything available i'd pick a newer Model 3.
Fecking Sue! I'd rather shoot myself in the head than have to drive a Model 3 to be honest! It is a bloody good thing that we are different I reckon for sure.
Putting the banter to one side for a min, I think we actually live near each other. I'm in south lincs. I seem to remember some chat between us and nick(frog) about M2s a couple of years ago.
Genuine offer. I'd be more than happy to take you for a spin in the Tesla. Meet up and have a coffee at mc donalds or whatever.
My K1300 is an absolute beast to ride but health matters mean i'm not riding that at the moment, otherwise i'd offer you a pillion ride. Sadly at the mo I just look at it and polish it now and then
cerb4.5lee said:
I always feel like I've missed out because I haven't ever had a motorbike. I've never been brave enough to get one, although I'd imagine that I would absolutely love their performance though for certain.
I’ve owned a few motorcycles in my time, and before quick EVs, there was no way to match bikes’ accelerative capabilities, outside of a super car/hypercar. But run-of-the-mill high-performance EVs come close, and Plaids/Sapphires/Taycan Turbo GTs are even quicker than most bikes. Sold my last bike years ago, and now I get similar sensations more safely on a supercharged PWC.
Zcd1 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I always feel like I've missed out because I haven't ever had a motorbike. I've never been brave enough to get one, although I'd imagine that I would absolutely love their performance though for certain.
I’ve owned a few motorcycles in my time, and before quick EVs, there was no way to match bikes’ accelerative capabilities, outside of a super car/hypercar. But run-of-the-mill high-performance EVs come close, and Plaids/Sapphires/Taycan Turbo GTs are even quicker than most bikes. Sold my last bike years ago, and now I get similar sensations more safely on a supercharged PWC.
Off the line it would leave a bike standing just because of not having to manage the throttle, find the biting point, stop the front wheel lifting, etc.
But above 70-80 those bikes would leave the Model 3 behind.
LowTread said:
cerb4.5lee said:
LowTread said:
I recognise the potential environmental benefits, but TBH that's about 5th or 6th on the list of reasons why i love the Model 3. If i was to pick any car to replace it with out of anything available i'd pick a newer Model 3.
Fecking Sue! I'd rather shoot myself in the head than have to drive a Model 3 to be honest! It is a bloody good thing that we are different I reckon for sure.
Putting the banter to one side for a min, I think we actually live near each other. I'm in south lincs. I seem to remember some chat between us and nick(frog) about M2s a couple of years ago.
Genuine offer. I'd be more than happy to take you for a spin in the Tesla. Meet up and have a coffee at mc donalds or whatever.
My K1300 is an absolute beast to ride but health matters mean i'm not riding that at the moment, otherwise i'd offer you a pillion ride. Sadly at the mo I just look at it and polish it now and then
I appreciate the very nice offer regarding your Tesla too.
I did go out on the back of my brother in laws CBR400 and CBR600 years ago. Now they aren't exactly fast bikes in comparison to some, however I was absolutely blown away by how quick they were though at the time(especially in comparison to cars).
He got knocked off his CBR600 though by another rider coming the other way hugging the centre white line, and he sold it pretty much straight away after that. I think that he just wanted to live a bit longer I reckon.
cerb4.5lee said:
I always feel like I've missed out because I haven't ever had a motorbike. I've never been brave enough to get one, although I'd imagine that I would absolutely love their performance though for certain.
Even something like my old slow Ducati makes the TVR feel a bit sluggish! My PS2 is the only thing that has made me feel a bit sick after a few full bore runs.Gerrymm11 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Fecking Sue! I'd rather shoot myself in the head than have to drive a Model 3 to be honest!
It is a bloody good thing that we are different I reckon for sure.
Yep, exactly that!!!It is a bloody good thing that we are different I reckon for sure.
M.F.D said:
Gerrymm11 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Fecking Sue! I'd rather shoot myself in the head than have to drive a Model 3 to be honest!
It is a bloody good thing that we are different I reckon for sure.
Yep, exactly that!!!It is a bloody good thing that we are different I reckon for sure.
Fast EV's are generally one trick ponies, that is true. But most vanilla ICE cars are also dull, but without even that one trick.
Assuming we're comparing performance ICE with performance EV cars, as this thread was, then there is far more to the electric powertrain than a lazy point and click straight-line burst of acceleration. A well engineered, performance EV has traction and weight placement that can generate significant cornering forces and then as you open up the steering, catapult you down the road on a wave of torque that is simply relentless. Whatever our individual preference for a drivetrain is, as a combination of dynamic ability and the feeling of power, that simply isn't boring. Nor is the fact that it costs pennies not pounds in terms of fuel each time you 'have a go', so, you get a lot more goes!
Personally I have resolved to the fact I love both, for different reasons. The two drivetrains are too different to compare directly or to try and make a sustainable argument as to which is best.
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