Discussion
Just had a 2 hour go in a Zoe, quite impressed. However I noticed a whistling sound when accelerating quite briskly, not sure if it was wind noise or from drivetrain. Also the battery gague seemed quite inconsistent ie it would go up and down by a few miles as I was driving. I was expecting it to steadily reduce
Sure the BMW is more expensive, but then a renault Clio is cheaper than a Zoe and the interior quality felt very similar to me. I am not in the market for a Clio.
Getting in the Zoe after the i3 was quite a disappointment (the exterior though is much better) if the Zoe had given me that wow feeling I got from the i3 I would have considered, it just did not for me.
The i3 was a car I wanted once I sat in it, electric or not. Having my own ltd company also meant that it was a no brainer as a company car.
Not criticising the Zoe, but it's just not a car I would buy. I want something a little more luxurious and am a sucker for interesting engineering and materials, the original Renault espace got my juices going. Hot dip galvanised body frame and plastic panels? Oh yes!
Getting in the Zoe after the i3 was quite a disappointment (the exterior though is much better) if the Zoe had given me that wow feeling I got from the i3 I would have considered, it just did not for me.
The i3 was a car I wanted once I sat in it, electric or not. Having my own ltd company also meant that it was a no brainer as a company car.
Not criticising the Zoe, but it's just not a car I would buy. I want something a little more luxurious and am a sucker for interesting engineering and materials, the original Renault espace got my juices going. Hot dip galvanised body frame and plastic panels? Oh yes!
Edited by hoganscrogan on Tuesday 15th April 19:46
HTP99 said:
Regarding the technological improvemnt on the battery; they were saying on the course that the technological advances in battery tech are so small and gradual that it'll most likely take many years before a demonstrably better battery is available.
Improvements in technology tends to be around how the vehicles consumes/manages the electric, and making that end of it more efficient, not the battery its self. Batteries haven't changed for years, really.Edited by HTP99 on Monday 14th April 12:46
In my opinion the battery lease is the killer for all of Renault's EVs at the moment. It ruins the second hand value as who wants to take on a £70 pm (minimum) commitment on a 4/5/6 year old car and have the worry that you'll need to pass it on to someone else when you decide to sell. To many people that would be their monthly fuel bill in a reasonably economical diesel.
Just look at the values of the Renault Fluence to see what can happen to used values of battery lease EVs. Although a flawed car it still seems they should be worth more than c.£6k for 2011/2012 cars.
Personally (as an Leaf driver) I think the best option currently is a normal lease for the whole car. I think the market is in too much flux to consider buying any of the EVs currently available outright (unless they're crazy cheap).
I hope Renault ditch the battery lease on existing cars, then I'll be buying one of those cheap Renaults in a heartbeat.
EVs have to win on a cost-of-ownership basis at the moment. If they're seen to be significantly cheaper to run, people will hopefully start to take the plunge.
Just look at the values of the Renault Fluence to see what can happen to used values of battery lease EVs. Although a flawed car it still seems they should be worth more than c.£6k for 2011/2012 cars.
Personally (as an Leaf driver) I think the best option currently is a normal lease for the whole car. I think the market is in too much flux to consider buying any of the EVs currently available outright (unless they're crazy cheap).
I hope Renault ditch the battery lease on existing cars, then I'll be buying one of those cheap Renaults in a heartbeat.
EVs have to win on a cost-of-ownership basis at the moment. If they're seen to be significantly cheaper to run, people will hopefully start to take the plunge.
Tophatron said:
EVs have to win on a cost-of-ownership basis at the moment. If they're seen to be significantly cheaper to run, people will hopefully start to take the plunge.
It is, for me, even with the battery lease. Daily congestion charge free for starters, free parking in Westminster etc etc etc...I think of the battery lease as cheap insurance for a significant component.
I have not bought the car on cost or running grounds anyway. Something of a novelty and technology. And as a replacement for my 500 Abarth, it's cheap. Alternatives circa 20k (new mini cooper etc)
squirejo said:
It is, for me, even with the battery lease. Daily congestion charge free for starters, free parking in Westminster etc etc etc...
I think of the battery lease as cheap insurance for a significant component.
I have not bought the car on cost or running grounds anyway. Something of a novelty and technology. And as a replacement for my 500 Abarth, it's cheap. Alternatives circa 20k (new mini cooper etc)
Out of interest, how long are you planning on keeping it? One of the issues I realised is that the battery lease would only cover a replacement if the battery capacity dropped under a certain percentage. However the 5 year battery warranty would also cover a replacement under the same circumstances..I think of the battery lease as cheap insurance for a significant component.
I have not bought the car on cost or running grounds anyway. Something of a novelty and technology. And as a replacement for my 500 Abarth, it's cheap. Alternatives circa 20k (new mini cooper etc)
Tophatron said:
squirejo said:
It is, for me, even with the battery lease. Daily congestion charge free for starters, free parking in Westminster etc etc etc...
I think of the battery lease as cheap insurance for a significant component.
I have not bought the car on cost or running grounds anyway. Something of a novelty and technology. And as a replacement for my 500 Abarth, it's cheap. Alternatives circa 20k (new mini cooper etc)
Out of interest, how long are you planning on keeping it? One of the issues I realised is that the battery lease would only cover a replacement if the battery capacity dropped under a certain percentage. However the 5 year battery warranty would also cover a replacement under the same circumstances..I think of the battery lease as cheap insurance for a significant component.
I have not bought the car on cost or running grounds anyway. Something of a novelty and technology. And as a replacement for my 500 Abarth, it's cheap. Alternatives circa 20k (new mini cooper etc)
Saw a Zoe and a Leaf on the M4 on Friday. Great to see them out and about.
How are second and third owners going to feel about being committed to a battery lease (of £70/month?)on a car that should nominally be worth a few grand (4 year old small renault) i would personally run a mile from that or does the lease end and the battery get transferred over to the vehicle at a certain point - details are sketchy, HTP to hopefully clarify....
eta: once you factor in the battery at £2,500 for 3 years then that puts it at £17,500 against £25k for a basic i3 (does the Zoe qualify for the full £5k rebate? i have a suspicion that it doesn't - that could make a material impact on costs)
so for an extra C.£7k you have a premium car, with innovative CFRP construction that is a TON faster (and yes.......with the right badge) with no second hand value destroying grenade ticking in the form of battery leases. it isn't snobbery, the BMW still makes sense.
The price differential is significantly smaller than any 'normal' comparable BMW and Renault. Call it inverse snobbery if you will!!!!
eta: once you factor in the battery at £2,500 for 3 years then that puts it at £17,500 against £25k for a basic i3 (does the Zoe qualify for the full £5k rebate? i have a suspicion that it doesn't - that could make a material impact on costs)
so for an extra C.£7k you have a premium car, with innovative CFRP construction that is a TON faster (and yes.......with the right badge) with no second hand value destroying grenade ticking in the form of battery leases. it isn't snobbery, the BMW still makes sense.
The price differential is significantly smaller than any 'normal' comparable BMW and Renault. Call it inverse snobbery if you will!!!!
Edited by Greg_D on Tuesday 22 April 10:14
Greg_D said:
How are second and third owners going to feel about being committed to a battery lease (of £70/month?)on a car that should nominally be worth a few grand (4 year old small renault) i would personally run a mile from that or does the lease end and the battery get transferred over to the vehicle at a certain point - details are sketchy, HTP to hopefully clarify....
As it stands the battery will always be leased/rented, for the entire life of the car.Is though paying £70 a month to lease a battery any different to paying £70 a month to fill up your tank with petrol/diesel; second and third hand cars at the lower end of the market still need fuel?
May be over time and if electric cars take off someone will manufacture a cheap battery that can be purchased outright for older elctric cars, after all when a car is out of warranty it wont be an issue.
SydneyBridge said:
what happens if you don't pay the lease, you own the car, do they then repossess the battery?
I read somewhere that Renault can instruct the car remotely not to take a charge on the battery. Obviously the car will be in a safe place charging off road, so if Renault did really do this, it won't be a safety issue. Greg_D said:
How are second and third owners going to feel about being committed to a battery lease (of £70/month?)on a car that should nominally be worth a few grand (4 year old small renault) i would personally run a mile from that or does the lease end and the battery get transferred over to the vehicle at a certain point - details are sketchy, HTP to hopefully clarify....
->>Dunno, but in 2 or 3 yrs, like leafs now, this should still be very good technology, proven, for peanuts at a time when the free charging infrastructure has really kicked in a petrol prices have risen another 25%
eta: once you factor in the battery at £2,500 for 3 years then that puts it at £17,500 against £25k for a basic i3 (does the Zoe qualify for the full £5k rebate? i have a suspicion that it doesn't - that could make a material impact on costs)
->>Yes it does. The grant is 25% up to £5k
so for an extra C.£7k you have a premium car, with innovative CFRP construction that is a TON faster (and yes.......with the right badge) with no second hand value destroying grenade ticking in the form of battery leases. it isn't snobbery, the BMW still makes sense.
->>Not quite. Earlier in the that someone who knows a lot more about i3 specs than me noted the charger and have technology of the Renault as standard being much better or optional upgrades on the i3. But however I take your point, albeit there have always been different ways to buy a car- cash, lease, finance, new, used. There are pros and cons for every circumstance which is why the market operates all price points.
The price differential is significantly smaller than any 'normal' comparable BMW and Renault. Call it inverse snobbery if you will!!!!
->>Dunno, but in 2 or 3 yrs, like leafs now, this should still be very good technology, proven, for peanuts at a time when the free charging infrastructure has really kicked in a petrol prices have risen another 25%
eta: once you factor in the battery at £2,500 for 3 years then that puts it at £17,500 against £25k for a basic i3 (does the Zoe qualify for the full £5k rebate? i have a suspicion that it doesn't - that could make a material impact on costs)
->>Yes it does. The grant is 25% up to £5k
so for an extra C.£7k you have a premium car, with innovative CFRP construction that is a TON faster (and yes.......with the right badge) with no second hand value destroying grenade ticking in the form of battery leases. it isn't snobbery, the BMW still makes sense.
->>Not quite. Earlier in the that someone who knows a lot more about i3 specs than me noted the charger and have technology of the Renault as standard being much better or optional upgrades on the i3. But however I take your point, albeit there have always been different ways to buy a car- cash, lease, finance, new, used. There are pros and cons for every circumstance which is why the market operates all price points.
The price differential is significantly smaller than any 'normal' comparable BMW and Renault. Call it inverse snobbery if you will!!!!
Edited by Greg_D on Tuesday 22 April 10:14
Greg_D said:
How are second and third owners going to feel about being committed to a battery lease (of £70/month?)on a car that should nominally be worth a few grand (4 year old small renault) i would personally run a mile from that or does the lease end and the battery get transferred over to the vehicle at a certain point - details are sketchy, HTP to hopefully clarify....
eta: once you factor in the battery at £2,500 for 3 years then that puts it at £17,500 against £25k for a basic i3 (does the Zoe qualify for the full £5k rebate? i have a suspicion that it doesn't - that could make a material impact on costs)
so for an extra C.£7k you have a premium car, with innovative CFRP construction that is a TON faster (and yes.......with the right badge) with no second hand value destroying grenade ticking in the form of battery leases. it isn't snobbery, the BMW still makes sense.
The price differential is significantly smaller than any 'normal' comparable BMW and Renault. Call it inverse snobbery if you will!!!!
+1eta: once you factor in the battery at £2,500 for 3 years then that puts it at £17,500 against £25k for a basic i3 (does the Zoe qualify for the full £5k rebate? i have a suspicion that it doesn't - that could make a material impact on costs)
so for an extra C.£7k you have a premium car, with innovative CFRP construction that is a TON faster (and yes.......with the right badge) with no second hand value destroying grenade ticking in the form of battery leases. it isn't snobbery, the BMW still makes sense.
The price differential is significantly smaller than any 'normal' comparable BMW and Renault. Call it inverse snobbery if you will!!!!
Edited by Greg_D on Tuesday 22 April 10:14
The battery is "worth" about £5k (Leaf prices), so a fair comparison is £19k for the Zoe, £25k for the i3.
Then consider the fact that the Fluence was a depreciation nightmare - and that i3 values are being propped up by lack of supply.
Then read this:
http://theblogaboutgadgets.com/renault-zoe-owners-...
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