Charging without a driveway
Discussion
TheDeuce said:
Perhaps, although if you have checked and the council agree it ok, I'd have thought you would have a leg to stand on.
What can we say is the sensible approach though? The fact is the local authorities generally don't have a firm policy or plan in place yet people need to charge the card they're being told by central government they have to transistion to.
I'd say that in most cases being sensible and thoughtful, even if it means spending some decent money, could achieve a solution that isn't at all likely to inconvenience others or end in disaster.
The proper way forwards is to charge car owners for the use of a parking space and provide electricity to the space.What can we say is the sensible approach though? The fact is the local authorities generally don't have a firm policy or plan in place yet people need to charge the card they're being told by central government they have to transistion to.
I'd say that in most cases being sensible and thoughtful, even if it means spending some decent money, could achieve a solution that isn't at all likely to inconvenience others or end in disaster.
That might mean you hire the space outside your house by the year.
Or it might mean you hire one of a pool of spaces by a timeslot. Either ad-hoc or with a booked rota.
It's a logical extension of residents parking schemes.
But, you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to think that TPTB might want less cars in cities.
OutInTheShed said:
The proper way forwards is to charge car owners for the use of a parking space and provide electricity to the space.
That might mean you hire the space outside your house by the year.
Or it might mean you hire one of a pool of spaces by a timeslot. Either ad-hoc or with a booked rota.
It's a logical extension of residents parking schemes.
But, you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to think that TPTB might want less cars in cities.
Anything like that is going to be a rip off. It's Britain, after all.That might mean you hire the space outside your house by the year.
Or it might mean you hire one of a pool of spaces by a timeslot. Either ad-hoc or with a booked rota.
It's a logical extension of residents parking schemes.
But, you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to think that TPTB might want less cars in cities.
The only fair way this will work is if a solution is found where people can charge at the rate of their home tariff. Otherwise it just becomes another tax on the less wealthy who can't afford off-road parking.
aestetix1 said:
Anything like that is going to be a rip off. It's Britain, after all.
The only fair way this will work is if a solution is found where people can charge at the rate of their home tariff. Otherwise it just becomes another tax on the less wealthy who can't afford off-road parking.
I admire how you think prices would be reduced, instead of increased, to even up.The only fair way this will work is if a solution is found where people can charge at the rate of their home tariff. Otherwise it just becomes another tax on the less wealthy who can't afford off-road parking.
Just think when a Chancellor comes out and says something like.......... "Why should people who are fortunate enough to be able to charge at home pay only 5% VAT, when people who have to necessarily charge elsewhere have to pay 20%? This is not domestic home use. Also people who are fortunate enough to be able to charge at home are generally in a much higher income bracket"
Also, the Government will be looking to recover the vast amount of lost fuel duties by taxation as well. Luckily it has enacted legislation that would easily allow it to do these things.
"On 30th June 2022 The Electric Vehicles (Smart Charge Points) Regulations come into force (1). All home installed electric vehicle chargers will be required to be separately metered and send this information to the Smart meter data communications network.
Potentially this legislation allows the electricity used for charging EVs to be charged and taxed at a higher rate than domestic electricity. The technology enacted also enables the rationing of electricity for EV charging because the government can decide when and if an EV can be charged, plus it also allows the EV battery to be drained into the grid if required."
Tigger2050 said:
"On 30th June 2022 The Electric Vehicles (Smart Charge Points) Regulations come into force (1). All home installed electric vehicle chargers will be required to be separately metered and send this information to the Smart meter data communications network.
Potentially this legislation allows the electricity used for charging EVs to be charged and taxed at a higher rate than domestic electricity. The technology enacted also enables the rationing of electricity for EV charging because the government can decide when and if an EV can be charged, plus it also allows the EV battery to be drained into the grid if required."
That sounds like a dogey quote - what was its source?Potentially this legislation allows the electricity used for charging EVs to be charged and taxed at a higher rate than domestic electricity. The technology enacted also enables the rationing of electricity for EV charging because the government can decide when and if an EV can be charged, plus it also allows the EV battery to be drained into the grid if required."
Can you point to where in the legislation this is defined?
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/1467/made
It must be capable of measuring, but there is no data fed back to the DCC as I understand it.
There is nothing the legislation about V2G being a requirement... and obviously you would need different EVSE to make that happen (probably a very limited selection of EVs too).
Tigger2050 said:
I admire how you think prices would be reduced, instead of increased, to even up.
Just think when a Chancellor comes out and says something like.......... "Why should people who are fortunate enough to be able to charge at home pay only 5% VAT, when people who have to necessarily charge elsewhere have to pay 20%? This is not domestic home use. Also people who are fortunate enough to be able to charge at home are generally in a much higher income bracket"
Also, the Government will be looking to recover the vast amount of lost fuel duties by taxation as well. Luckily it has enacted legislation that would easily allow it to do these things.
"On 30th June 2022 The Electric Vehicles (Smart Charge Points) Regulations come into force (1). All home installed electric vehicle chargers will be required to be separately metered and send this information to the Smart meter data communications network.
Potentially this legislation allows the electricity used for charging EVs to be charged and taxed at a higher rate than domestic electricity. The technology enacted also enables the rationing of electricity for EV charging because the government can decide when and if an EV can be charged, plus it also allows the EV battery to be drained into the grid if required."
That's an interesting point. Thing is, it only applies to chargers. There isn't much they can do about someone plugging in a granny charger to a normal socket. Or setting up some solar panels and an inverter just for the car.Just think when a Chancellor comes out and says something like.......... "Why should people who are fortunate enough to be able to charge at home pay only 5% VAT, when people who have to necessarily charge elsewhere have to pay 20%? This is not domestic home use. Also people who are fortunate enough to be able to charge at home are generally in a much higher income bracket"
Also, the Government will be looking to recover the vast amount of lost fuel duties by taxation as well. Luckily it has enacted legislation that would easily allow it to do these things.
"On 30th June 2022 The Electric Vehicles (Smart Charge Points) Regulations come into force (1). All home installed electric vehicle chargers will be required to be separately metered and send this information to the Smart meter data communications network.
Potentially this legislation allows the electricity used for charging EVs to be charged and taxed at a higher rate than domestic electricity. The technology enacted also enables the rationing of electricity for EV charging because the government can decide when and if an EV can be charged, plus it also allows the EV battery to be drained into the grid if required."
OutInTheShed said:
The proper way forwards is to charge car owners for the use of a parking space and provide electricity to the space.
That might mean you hire the space outside your house by the year.
Or it might mean you hire one of a pool of spaces by a timeslot. Either ad-hoc or with a booked rota.
It's a logical extension of residents parking schemes.
But, you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to think that TPTB might want less cars in cities.
Or to roll out proper on street public charging points, other countries seem to mange this pretty well. If the UK government want people to switch to electric they need to make it easy for people to charge them.That might mean you hire the space outside your house by the year.
Or it might mean you hire one of a pool of spaces by a timeslot. Either ad-hoc or with a booked rota.
It's a logical extension of residents parking schemes.
But, you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to think that TPTB might want less cars in cities.
The Dutch have these ones all over the place https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1143333,4.2877902,...
No ideas for a name said:
That sounds like a dogey quote - what was its source?
Can you point to where in the legislation this is defined?
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/1467/made
It must be capable of measuring, but there is no data fed back to the DCC as I understand it.
There is nothing the legislation about V2G being a requirement... and obviously you would need different EVSE to make that happen (probably a very limited selection of EVs too).
From the legislation...................Can you point to where in the legislation this is defined?
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/1467/made
It must be capable of measuring, but there is no data fed back to the DCC as I understand it.
There is nothing the legislation about V2G being a requirement... and obviously you would need different EVSE to make that happen (probably a very limited selection of EVs too).
A relevant charge point has smart functionality if—
"(a)it is able to send and receive information via a communications network;
(b)it is able to respond to signals or other information received by it by—
(i)increasing or decreasing the rate of electricity flowing through the charge point;
(ii)changing the time at which electricity flows through the charge point;
9.—(1) A relevant charge point must be configured so that on each occasion it is used, it measures or calculates—
(a)the electricity it has imported or exported (as the case may be), such measurement or calculation to be in watt-hours or kilowatt-hours; and
(b)the amount of time for which it is importing or exporting electricity.
(2) A relevant charge point must be configured in a way which enables the owner of the relevant charge point to view the information referred to in paragraph (1) by reference to—
(a)any occasion on which it was used to import or export electricity within the preceding 12 months;"
So the charge point must be able to export electricity. I wonder why the Government insisted on that?
aestetix1 said:
That's an interesting point. Thing is, it only applies to chargers. There isn't much they can do about someone plugging in a granny charger to a normal socket. Or setting up some solar panels and an inverter just for the car.
Of course there is, the Government can insist that all EV's sold here are software limited in the type of charging permitted.Tigger2050 said:
No ideas for a name said:
That sounds like a dogey quote - what was its source?
Can you point to where in the legislation this is defined?
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/1467/made
It must be capable of measuring, but there is no data fed back to the DCC as I understand it.
There is nothing the legislation about V2G being a requirement... and obviously you would need different EVSE to make that happen (probably a very limited selection of EVs too).
From the legislation...................Can you point to where in the legislation this is defined?
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/1467/made
It must be capable of measuring, but there is no data fed back to the DCC as I understand it.
There is nothing the legislation about V2G being a requirement... and obviously you would need different EVSE to make that happen (probably a very limited selection of EVs too).
A relevant charge point has smart functionality if—
"(a)it is able to send and receive information via a communications network;
(b)it is able to respond to signals or other information received by it by—
(i)increasing or decreasing the rate of electricity flowing through the charge point;
(ii)changing the time at which electricity flows through the charge point;
9.—(1) A relevant charge point must be configured so that on each occasion it is used, it measures or calculates—
(a)the electricity it has imported or exported (as the case may be), such measurement or calculation to be in watt-hours or kilowatt-hours; and
(b)the amount of time for which it is importing or exporting electricity.
(2) A relevant charge point must be configured in a way which enables the owner of the relevant charge point to view the information referred to in paragraph (1) by reference to—
(a)any occasion on which it was used to import or export electricity within the preceding 12 months;"
So the charge point must be able to export electricity. I wonder why the Government insisted on that?
Not having a go at you, but it clearly isn't your words - it is a quote you lifted from somewhere... and they appear to be wrong and scaremongering.
The legislation also states;
Loss of communications network access
7. A relevant charge point must be configured so that, in the event that it ceases to be connected to a communications network, it remains capable of charging an electric vehicle.
Tigger2050 said:
aestetix1 said:
That's an interesting point. Thing is, it only applies to chargers. There isn't much they can do about someone plugging in a granny charger to a normal socket. Or setting up some solar panels and an inverter just for the car.
Of course there is, the Government can insist that all EV's sold here are software limited in the type of charging permitted.DC charging is far more exciting in respect of data transfer.
No ideas for a name said:
Mode 2 or 3 charging has no functionality that could allow this. The only comms/handshake is to 'agree' the current available and to cycle through the charge states.
DC charging is far more exciting in respect of data transfer.
EV's can and can be required to, communicate with the charger and can prevent charging if it doesn't get the right answer. You would be mad to believe that, when the Government start taxing electricity for EV's, to recover the huge amount of revenue it gets from fuel duties, it wont require manufactures to implement software that will prevent charging outside a smart system. DC charging is far more exciting in respect of data transfer.
ICE cars would already be cheaper to fuel than EV's, if their fuels were taxed at the same rate as EV's, we are talking about massive losses in taxation if EV's are not taxed. The Government will prevent people charging using untaxed fuel, just as they do now with petrol and diesel.
Edited by Tigger2050 on Thursday 1st September 16:03
Tigger2050 said:
ICE cars would already be cheaper to fuel than EV's, if their fuels were taxed at the same rate as EV's, we are talking about massive losses in taxation if EV's are not taxed. The Government will prevent people charging using untaxed fuel, just as they do now with petrol and diesel.
Current domestic price for electricity is about 30p/kwh which works out at about 8p/mile for a 3.75 mile/kwh EV. According to the RAC, the current price retail price of petrol with no tax except 5% VAT (to match domestic electricity) is about 95p per litre so you'd need to be getting 53mpg from a petrol car to match a 3.75 mile/kwh EV. After October when the electricity price cap rises to 52p/kwh that will obviously change, but one has to hope that the current wholesale electricity prices aren't going to continue forever!
No ideas for a name said:
So, nothing at all about sending this to the DCC.
Not having a go at you, but it clearly isn't your words - it is a quote you lifted from somewhere... and they appear to be wrong and scaremongering.
The legislation also states;
Loss of communications network access
7. A relevant charge point must be configured so that, in the event that it ceases to be connected to a communications network, it remains capable of charging an electric vehicle.
What is wrong in saying that EV electricity, through these smart meters, can be charged at a different rate to the domestic rate, can be controlled as to when they can be charged and at what flow rate and that they can be enabled to export electricity as well as import it.Not having a go at you, but it clearly isn't your words - it is a quote you lifted from somewhere... and they appear to be wrong and scaremongering.
The legislation also states;
Loss of communications network access
7. A relevant charge point must be configured so that, in the event that it ceases to be connected to a communications network, it remains capable of charging an electric vehicle.
That is what the Regulations say.
As far as loss of communication goes, that is no big deal, the meter itself can continue to keep recording the data internally, to send down the line when communications are restored.
Tigger2050 said:
No ideas for a name said:
So, nothing at all about sending this to the DCC.
Not having a go at you, but it clearly isn't your words - it is a quote you lifted from somewhere... and they appear to be wrong and scaremongering.
The legislation also states;
Loss of communications network access
7. A relevant charge point must be configured so that, in the event that it ceases to be connected to a communications network, it remains capable of charging an electric vehicle.
What is wrong in saying that EV electricity, through these smart meters, can be charged at a different rate to the domestic rate, can be controlled as to when they can be charged and at what flow rate and that they can be enabled to export electricity as well as import it.Not having a go at you, but it clearly isn't your words - it is a quote you lifted from somewhere... and they appear to be wrong and scaremongering.
The legislation also states;
Loss of communications network access
7. A relevant charge point must be configured so that, in the event that it ceases to be connected to a communications network, it remains capable of charging an electric vehicle.
That is what the Regulations say.
As far as loss of communication goes, that is no big deal, the meter itself can continue to keep recording the data internally, to send down the line when communications are restored.
If you disconnect the charger from the internet it is game over.
To make all the manufacturers conform to an approved system now will be a total nightmare, they should have thought about stuff like this 10 years ago.
It is going to be next to impossible to stop people disconnecting home chargers from the internet or even using 13amp chargers.
The easiest way will be road tax on mileage or purchase price of the car.
kambites said:
Current domestic price for electricity is about 30p/kwh which works out at about 8p/mile for a 3.75 mile/kwh EV. According to the RAC, the current price retail price of petrol with no tax except 5% VAT (to match domestic electricity) is about 95p per litre so you'd need to be getting 53mpg from a petrol car to match a 3.75 mile/kwh EV.
After October when the electricity price cap rises to 52p/kwh that will obviously change, but one has to hope that the current wholesale electricity prices aren't going to continue forever!
This thread is about electricity prices after October and after January. Of course prices are forecast to surge again significantly from April. After October when the electricity price cap rises to 52p/kwh that will obviously change, but one has to hope that the current wholesale electricity prices aren't going to continue forever!
At todays electricity and petrol prices, if petrol was priced with just 5% VAT, I make it would be £4.24 a gallon and it would cost £8.48 to do a 100 miles. An EV, doing 3.75 miles per kWh, would cost £8.68, when you take into account the average 16% loss rate on charging. When you buy a gallon of fuel, you get a gallon into your tank, when you buy a kWh of electricity you get less than that in your battery, on average 16% less.
Petrol is at near historic highs but is falling, EV fuel on the other hand!!
TheRainMaker said:
The meter doesn't get involved in the charger systems, this is all provided by the charger makers.
If you disconnect the charger from the internet it is game over.
To make all the manufacturers conform to an approved system now will be a total nightmare, they should have thought about stuff like this 10 years ago.
It is going to be next to impossible to stop people disconnecting home chargers from the internet or even using 13amp chargers.
The easiest way will be road tax on mileage or purchase price of the car.
What nonsense. Communicating with a charger is a software issue, software can be and is, changed regularly and can be done remotely, it is no issue at all If you disconnect the charger from the internet it is game over.
To make all the manufacturers conform to an approved system now will be a total nightmare, they should have thought about stuff like this 10 years ago.
It is going to be next to impossible to stop people disconnecting home chargers from the internet or even using 13amp chargers.
The easiest way will be road tax on mileage or purchase price of the car.
Tigger2050 said:
What nonsense. Communicating with a charger is a software issue, software can be and is, changed regularly and can be done remotely, it is no issue at all
Appologies if not, but it appears that there is some trolling going on.Bearing in mind that you are reading something written by an embedded software engineer - who just completed some remote updaing software for metering systems (private not DCC)...
As a previous poster said, game over with no internet access. Dead easy to arrange. The chargers are not required to have unfiltered internet access.. some have a buit in SIM, which makes 'interference' a little more tricky, but if it is using a local WiFi or network connection, then I will control that at the firewall.
Your general point that taxation has to be collected, is obviously true. Personally I can't see it being collected via different rates and charges for electricity depending on its purpose. Too hard to implement, too easy to circumvent. I used to joke about green electricity being the same as red diesel... different colours of electricity for different purposes... but it was a joke.
The idea behind the latest EVSE regs is really common sense. It is to stop a huge load being dropped on the network at the same instant. It is really good design. HP servers do this too, a randomised startup delay so you don't suddenly get 1000 servers at full load dropped on the UPS after a power outage.. bring them up a few at a time.
Humans are stupid and lazy... the charger designs are supposed to combat that by having suitable defaults so that arriving home from work and plugging in for an immediate charge is 'discouraged'. It is good design. The default human behaviour is; some one comes home, plugs their EV in (at 7kW), bangs the oven on at 3kW and goes for a shower at 10kW... the result being someone has to buy several power stations to cover that peak load.
The rules for metering (internally) are good... it means you can keep a track of your energy usage. It isn't required to be sent to the DCC.
The comms on an AC charger are really basic... PWM to tell the EV what current is available, voltage levels to tell the EVSE what state the EV is in. There is no more than that in the electronics (I have designed some test equipment).
The legislation discussed seems well intentioned... some comedy parts though... apparently a purchaser is entitled to a "technical file" which explains how it implements the requirements of the legislation... I can't see EVSE manufacturers being keen to dish that out to end users all the time.
Again DC chargers are getting there... much more data to move about over powerline ethernet.
AC chargers have evolved... they didn't get designed as a decent system 10 years ago.
No ideas for a name said:
Appologies if not, but it appears that there is some trolling going on.
Bearing in mind that you are reading something written by an embedded software engineer - who just completed some remote updaing software for metering systems (private not DCC)...
As a previous poster said, game over with no internet access. Dead easy to arrange. The chargers are not required to have unfiltered internet access.. some have a buit in SIM, which makes 'interference' a little more tricky, but if it is using a local WiFi or network connection, then I will control that at the firewall.
Your general point that taxation has to be collected, is obviously true. Personally I can't see it being collected via different rates and charges for electricity depending on its purpose. Too hard to implement, too easy to circumvent. I used to joke about green electricity being the same as red diesel... different colours of electricity for different purposes... but it was a joke.
The idea behind the latest EVSE regs is really common sense. It is to stop a huge load being dropped on the network at the same instant. It is really good design. HP servers do this too, a randomised startup delay so you don't suddenly get 1000 servers at full load dropped on the UPS after a power outage.. bring them up a few at a time.
Humans are stupid and lazy... the charger designs are supposed to combat that by having suitable defaults so that arriving home from work and plugging in for an immediate charge is 'discouraged'. It is good design. The default human behaviour is; some one comes home, plugs their EV in (at 7kW), bangs the oven on at 3kW and goes for a shower at 10kW... the result being someone has to buy several power stations to cover that peak load.
The rules for metering (internally) are good... it means you can keep a track of your energy usage. It isn't required to be sent to the DCC.
The comms on an AC charger are really basic... PWM to tell the EV what current is available, voltage levels to tell the EVSE what state the EV is in. There is no more than that in the electronics (I have designed some test equipment).
The legislation discussed seems well intentioned... some comedy parts though... apparently a purchaser is entitled to a "technical file" which explains how it implements the requirements of the legislation... I can't see EVSE manufacturers being keen to dish that out to end users all the time.
Again DC chargers are getting there... much more data to move about over powerline ethernet.
AC chargers have evolved... they didn't get designed as a decent system 10 years ago.
Given your experience, I would have thought you would know that smart meters don't use the Internet, they use their own closed communications system, similar to a mobile phone signal.Bearing in mind that you are reading something written by an embedded software engineer - who just completed some remote updaing software for metering systems (private not DCC)...
As a previous poster said, game over with no internet access. Dead easy to arrange. The chargers are not required to have unfiltered internet access.. some have a buit in SIM, which makes 'interference' a little more tricky, but if it is using a local WiFi or network connection, then I will control that at the firewall.
Your general point that taxation has to be collected, is obviously true. Personally I can't see it being collected via different rates and charges for electricity depending on its purpose. Too hard to implement, too easy to circumvent. I used to joke about green electricity being the same as red diesel... different colours of electricity for different purposes... but it was a joke.
The idea behind the latest EVSE regs is really common sense. It is to stop a huge load being dropped on the network at the same instant. It is really good design. HP servers do this too, a randomised startup delay so you don't suddenly get 1000 servers at full load dropped on the UPS after a power outage.. bring them up a few at a time.
Humans are stupid and lazy... the charger designs are supposed to combat that by having suitable defaults so that arriving home from work and plugging in for an immediate charge is 'discouraged'. It is good design. The default human behaviour is; some one comes home, plugs their EV in (at 7kW), bangs the oven on at 3kW and goes for a shower at 10kW... the result being someone has to buy several power stations to cover that peak load.
The rules for metering (internally) are good... it means you can keep a track of your energy usage. It isn't required to be sent to the DCC.
The comms on an AC charger are really basic... PWM to tell the EV what current is available, voltage levels to tell the EVSE what state the EV is in. There is no more than that in the electronics (I have designed some test equipment).
The legislation discussed seems well intentioned... some comedy parts though... apparently a purchaser is entitled to a "technical file" which explains how it implements the requirements of the legislation... I can't see EVSE manufacturers being keen to dish that out to end users all the time.
Again DC chargers are getting there... much more data to move about over powerline ethernet.
AC chargers have evolved... they didn't get designed as a decent system 10 years ago.
They create a short range wireless network to communicate with any home displays.
Tigger2050 said:
Given your experience, I would have thought you would know that smart meters don't use the Internet, they use their own closed communications system, similar to a mobile phone signal.
They create a short range wireless network to communicate with any home displays.
They do... via Telefonica using the 2/2.5G mobile network in the South. Arqiva using 400Mhz band in Scotland and the North.They create a short range wireless network to communicate with any home displays.
Zigbee over 2.4GHz and 868MHz for the IHD.
No idea what that has to do with EVSE though.
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff