Why so few EV large saloons?
Discussion
GT9 said:
A bit like an X6 then? 
It's a worrying thought isn't it that back when that thing appeared we never realised it was the future!! 
I wonder just how low the Ferrari SUV actually is? Judging by the pictures it would appear to place the driver's face at around the level of a Range Rover driver's arse.
The iPace is probably most representative as to where the 4x4 shape will meet the estate shape?
GT9 said:
The most aerodynamically efficient design has a smooth taper between the roof and the boot lip. The EQXX is an obvious example of this and I’d say it resembles a hatchback more than a saloon. A saloon to me has a flat boot lid with a steeply raked rear screen. Maybe fastback would be the best way to describe it.
Surely the CLS is the "four door coupe" originator?Edited by GT9 on Thursday 29th September 12:25
DonkeyApple said:
It's a worrying thought isn't it that back when that thing appeared we never realised it was the future!!
When new things appear, rather than having a fit, I find myself asking the question, I want to know why that exists. You do wonder if the designers and engineers at these big car companies sat down 20 years ago and made a list of things for their future products, along the lines of:
The ability to carry ever expanding waistlines.
The need to carry more and more tat.
The need to reduce aerodynamic drag.
Sporty looks to attract the buyers.
Higher seating position because, let's face it, most people want that.
The fact that the skateboard EV chassis and higher weight allowance for EVs played right into their hands was either a stroke of genius or a stroke of luck.
Maybe the X6 was borne out of BMW recognising that they would take one for the team and 'move the cheese' just far enough not to cause a global meltdown, but get us ready for what was coming. Reading the posts on here it seems that some people found it an almost near-death experience, but hopefully everyone has survived and now learnt to cope.
Tbh I think EVs use a lot of faux SUV design elements to hide the visual mass. Raise them a little bit, big wheels, those plastic wheel arch things, etc. As far as I can tell it's all to hide the height caused by the battery in the floor. And then they need to have low sloping roofs and a sloping bonnet and you get the design of very many EVs. It's quite a strange look really by ICE standards where none of the EV constraints apply and you can do whatever you want.
I wouldn't mind more estates anyhow if it can be done in EV land but harder to hide the batteries in that format I'd imagine. Probably more realistically PHEV at the moment.
I wouldn't mind more estates anyhow if it can be done in EV land but harder to hide the batteries in that format I'd imagine. Probably more realistically PHEV at the moment.
GT9 said:
When new things appear, rather than having a fit, I find myself asking the question, I want to know why that exists.
You do wonder if the designers and engineers at these big car companies sat down 20 years ago and made a list of things for their future products, along the lines of:
The ability to carry ever expanding waistlines.
The need to carry more and more tat.
The need to reduce aerodynamic drag.
Sporty looks to attract the buyers.
Higher seating position because, let's face it, most people want that.
The fact that the skateboard EV chassis and higher weight allowance for EVs played right into their hands was either a stroke of genius or a stroke of luck.
Maybe the X6 was borne out of BMW recognising that they would take one for the team and 'move the cheese' just far enough not to cause a global meltdown, but get us ready for what was coming. Reading the posts on here it seems that some people found it an almost near-death experience, but hopefully everyone has survived and now learnt to cope.
Futurologists. I suspect most big companies have them. Mostly they're just folk who watch old Star Trek episodes for ideas while shouting at mother to bring another box of Kleenex down to the basement. You do wonder if the designers and engineers at these big car companies sat down 20 years ago and made a list of things for their future products, along the lines of:
The ability to carry ever expanding waistlines.
The need to carry more and more tat.
The need to reduce aerodynamic drag.
Sporty looks to attract the buyers.
Higher seating position because, let's face it, most people want that.
The fact that the skateboard EV chassis and higher weight allowance for EVs played right into their hands was either a stroke of genius or a stroke of luck.
Maybe the X6 was borne out of BMW recognising that they would take one for the team and 'move the cheese' just far enough not to cause a global meltdown, but get us ready for what was coming. Reading the posts on here it seems that some people found it an almost near-death experience, but hopefully everyone has survived and now learnt to cope.
I'm sure some cars are built by the global firms to test the waters or set a 'scene'. Not the mainstream products but a niche that can built on the same/similar line or farmed out to a third party and if a failure in all markets, quietly pulled.
The main problem with the X6 though was that it just never saw which way a mapped 335D went.
DonkeyApple said:
Futurologists. I suspect most big companies have them. Mostly they're just folk who watch old Star Trek episodes for ideas while shouting at mother to bring another box of Kleenex down to the basement.
I'm sure some cars are built by the global firms to test the waters or set a 'scene'. Not the mainstream products but a niche that can built on the same/similar line or farmed out to a third party and if a failure in all markets, quietly pulled.
The main problem with the X6 though was that it just never saw which way a mapped 335D went.
Grown men shouting at their mother reminds me of this scene I'm sure some cars are built by the global firms to test the waters or set a 'scene'. Not the mainstream products but a niche that can built on the same/similar line or farmed out to a third party and if a failure in all markets, quietly pulled.
The main problem with the X6 though was that it just never saw which way a mapped 335D went.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCYArey8ykUAs for the X6, it would have to have the M engine under the bonnet if it was to tempt me into owning it.
GT9 said:
The most aerodynamically efficient design has a smooth taper between the roof and the boot lip. The EQXX is an obvious example of this and I’d say it resembles a hatchback more than a saloon. A saloon to me has a flat boot lid with a steeply raked rear screen. Maybe fastback would be the best way to describe it.
Well, yes. I was lumping them all together as most would still call such a thing a saloon car. Not sure I’ve ever heard anyone beyond a motoring journalist/forum use the word “fastback” in normal parlance. Panamera, Model S, A7, CLS, et al.Edited by GT9 on Thursday 29th September 12:25
Anyway, there’s probably not much in it these days, what with most “true” saloon cars (ie luggage compartment completely separate from the passenger one) having very shallow sloping rear windows and a short, high boot lid anyway. One thing a true saloon car will always have the advantage with though is greater refinement and structural rigidity. That fixed bulkhead and parcel shelf behind the rear seats adds a lot of strength and NVH isolation over a typical fastback with foldable rear seats and lightweight removable parcel shelf. Given how EV’s don’t have a noisy engine to also serve as a handy sound masking device, managing NVH becomes that much more difficult. It’s a lot easier with a traditional saloon car because of this. A fringe benefit perhaps, but a saloon car will always be the refinement top dog because of it.
GT9 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Futurologists. I suspect most big companies have them. Mostly they're just folk who watch old Star Trek episodes for ideas while shouting at mother to bring another box of Kleenex down to the basement.
I'm sure some cars are built by the global firms to test the waters or set a 'scene'. Not the mainstream products but a niche that can built on the same/similar line or farmed out to a third party and if a failure in all markets, quietly pulled.
The main problem with the X6 though was that it just never saw which way a mapped 335D went.
Grown men shouting at their mother reminds me of this scene I'm sure some cars are built by the global firms to test the waters or set a 'scene'. Not the mainstream products but a niche that can built on the same/similar line or farmed out to a third party and if a failure in all markets, quietly pulled.
The main problem with the X6 though was that it just never saw which way a mapped 335D went.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCYArey8ykUAs for the X6, it would have to have the M engine under the bonnet if it was to tempt me into owning it.
dvs_dave said:
The X6 was at the time a cynical style over function, excessively wasteful and impractical creation designed for preening tattooed meatheads and their ilk. Ghastly things for ghastly people that because of their huge frontal area, by default aren’t very aerodynamic, regardless of the roofline.
See, that's what I'm talking about. It's an inanimate object that has got you all worked into a froth that you feel the need to start hurling insults. I have a demure female relative who has one. Do I inform them that some bloke on the internet thinks they are a ghastly person, just because they wanted a different kind of SUV from the previous one they had?
JonnyVTEC said:
Fastlane said:
What's wrong with the Tesla Model S? It's a large EV saloon, but with a large hatchback.
Rear seat comfort with the low hip to heel posture and poor thigh support. GT9 said:
dvs_dave said:
The X6 was at the time a cynical style over function, excessively wasteful and impractical creation designed for preening tattooed meatheads and their ilk. Ghastly things for ghastly people that because of their huge frontal area, by default aren’t very aerodynamic, regardless of the roofline.
See, that's what I'm talking about. It's an inanimate object that has got you all worked into a froth that you feel the need to start hurling insults. I have a demure female relative who has one. Do I inform them that some bloke on the internet thinks they are a ghastly person, just because they wanted a different kind of SUV from the previous one they had?
DMZ said:
Tbh I think EVs use a lot of faux SUV design elements to hide the visual mass. Raise them a little bit, big wheels, those plastic wheel arch things, etc. As far as I can tell it's all to hide the height caused by the battery in the floor. And then they need to have low sloping roofs and a sloping bonnet and you get the design of very many EVs. It's quite a strange look really by ICE standards where none of the EV constraints apply and you can do whatever you want.
I wouldn't mind more estates anyhow if it can be done in EV land but harder to hide the batteries in that format I'd imagine. Probably more realistically PHEV at the moment.
I’ll talk to myself for a bit… but the EQS SUV doing the rounds now highlights all of this nicely. The saloon is an awkward blobby looking thing but raise it a bit, increase the wheel arch space, add some plastic cladding, and make the shape a bit boxier and voila, you have a much better looking EV because the battery bloat magically disappeared. Visually at least. I wouldn't mind more estates anyhow if it can be done in EV land but harder to hide the batteries in that format I'd imagine. Probably more realistically PHEV at the moment.
Glosphil said:
OP, "The extra space in the rear stops our 3 kids form kicking the back of your seat."
Sounds like your kids need to be taught how to behave rather than having a large car to travel in.
One of my daughters developed the habit of kicking the back of the driver's seat despite being asked not to & being told there would be consequences if she continued. The next time she did it turning around & going back home so she missed a friend's birthday party cured her.
Well, my other car is a 3 door K11 Micra, so it's more about the space lol. We find the space great tbh. It's a pleasure for even a 6 feet + adult (with a few lbs needing to be lost) to sit in the back, and our standard wheelbase A6 seems pretty cramped by comparison ... Sounds like your kids need to be taught how to behave rather than having a large car to travel in.
One of my daughters developed the habit of kicking the back of the driver's seat despite being asked not to & being told there would be consequences if she continued. The next time she did it turning around & going back home so she missed a friend's birthday party cured her.
The other modern design trend for SUVs is higher belt lines, shallower roof lines etc, so the rear passenger side "windows" are smaller than ever before.
See: https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewdepaula/2011/0...
C.A.R. said:
I think you've answered your own question here without realising it.
Your own preferred vehicle with which you are very happy, is being discontinued in its current form. That means that you are in a very small minority and the manufacturer (Audi) does not see fit to update the model so that they can sell a handful in the next few years.
It's therefore hardly surprising that you can't fit those same requirements around an emerging market (EV's) which is going to be guided by what the majority wants and cars that can be sold in volume.
Yep, I think you're right!Your own preferred vehicle with which you are very happy, is being discontinued in its current form. That means that you are in a very small minority and the manufacturer (Audi) does not see fit to update the model so that they can sell a handful in the next few years.
It's therefore hardly surprising that you can't fit those same requirements around an emerging market (EV's) which is going to be guided by what the majority wants and cars that can be sold in volume.
MF35 said:
Well, my other car is a 3 door K11 Micra, so it's more about the space lol. We find the space great tbh. It's a pleasure for even a 6 feet + adult (with a few lbs needing to be lost) to sit in the back, and our standard wheelbase A6 seems pretty cramped by comparison ...
The other modern design trend for SUVs is higher belt lines, shallower roof lines etc, so the rear passenger side "windows" are smaller than ever before.
See: https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewdepaula/2011/0...
Our etron does a great job with passenger space as the ground up EV design really helps with a flat floor and no transmission tunnel to deal with. I'm 6.4" and my lad is 6.3" and he can sit very comfortably behind me even on long journeys. No complaints about the view out either.The other modern design trend for SUVs is higher belt lines, shallower roof lines etc, so the rear passenger side "windows" are smaller than ever before.
See: https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewdepaula/2011/0...
Ingress/egress is also a much nicer experience than in a lower saloon car, especially with young kids or older passengers who might need a helping hand.
Our first ever SUV and got to say for a daily I can really see the benefit of the increased ride height and additional tyre sidewall offered.
Many thanks, and esp to those who mentioned Lucid Air - hadn’t thought of that one at all. Seems promising. That and the new BMW 7 series.
My aversion to SUVs is a sort of reverse-snobbery (I hate the "upwardly mobile" connotations - literally looking down on people), but I do have some practical reasons:
1. I’ve been in many modern SUVs, and they're all a bit reverse Tardis, in that rear seat room is nothing special in any of them. Something like a Taycan, which otherwise looks and goes well, is poor as far as rear seat space is concerned. But they're all a bit of a let-down in the space dept, and I guess it’s my perhaps naive idea that if I'm shelling out for a new car, I can get something as least as good as my old one in all key aspects, not significantly worse in one of them ...
2. Better aerodynamics, and better rear headroom - can't be having sloping rears on cars. Just screams fashion victim.
3. Safety - an aluminium A8 3-box saloon has crumple zones front and rear, and any saloon is less prone to rolling over than an SUV.
4. More secure, separate luggage compartment, instead of one that can be accessed with a casual brick through the window.
5. Driving dynamics - better in a saloon than in a top-heavy SUV.
See: https://www.motorbiscuit.com/dont-follow-pack-7-re...
There are v few cheap options, but it seems to be:
1. Lucid Air
2. BMW 7 series
3. MB EQS (albeit it’s really a hatch)
Tesla – thought about them but Musk is a bit of a tool, and more importantly the shoddy build quality wouldn’t give much ownership satisfaction.
The other option is something like the LWB VW Zoom or similar – has the visibility and all-round headroom that SUVs lack.
My aversion to SUVs is a sort of reverse-snobbery (I hate the "upwardly mobile" connotations - literally looking down on people), but I do have some practical reasons:
1. I’ve been in many modern SUVs, and they're all a bit reverse Tardis, in that rear seat room is nothing special in any of them. Something like a Taycan, which otherwise looks and goes well, is poor as far as rear seat space is concerned. But they're all a bit of a let-down in the space dept, and I guess it’s my perhaps naive idea that if I'm shelling out for a new car, I can get something as least as good as my old one in all key aspects, not significantly worse in one of them ...
2. Better aerodynamics, and better rear headroom - can't be having sloping rears on cars. Just screams fashion victim.
3. Safety - an aluminium A8 3-box saloon has crumple zones front and rear, and any saloon is less prone to rolling over than an SUV.
4. More secure, separate luggage compartment, instead of one that can be accessed with a casual brick through the window.
5. Driving dynamics - better in a saloon than in a top-heavy SUV.
See: https://www.motorbiscuit.com/dont-follow-pack-7-re...
There are v few cheap options, but it seems to be:
1. Lucid Air
2. BMW 7 series
3. MB EQS (albeit it’s really a hatch)
Tesla – thought about them but Musk is a bit of a tool, and more importantly the shoddy build quality wouldn’t give much ownership satisfaction.
The other option is something like the LWB VW Zoom or similar – has the visibility and all-round headroom that SUVs lack.
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