VW seems to be panicking...
Discussion
Flooble said:
Mark V GTD said:
TheDeuce said:
You could order one of those and a couple of spare VW badges to superglue to the bumpers 
Lol, you make a good point! Anyway I’m staying clear of electric after my two month foray last year. Petrol Tiguan awaits on 1st September :-))Kinda need to appeal Vs your competitors to each wave of new generation car buyers if you want to be 'just fine'.
Sheepshanks said:
bomster said:
I test drove an ID3 a few days ago and really enjoyed it. Cabin is sparse, but it drove really well. Suspension felt good, cornered really well (considering the weight), accelerated well enough off junctions and roundabouts to put a smile on my face. Software seemed good and had a nice UI. I also think it's a really good looking car.
Not really sure where all the negativity comes from for the car.
I had one as a loaner for a couple of days last month. Was very new - 600 miles on it. Car was lifted by have a full glass roof but they told me the list price of the car was £40K. Used ones a couple of years old can still be £30K - I was expecting high teens.Not really sure where all the negativity comes from for the car.
Never driven an EV before and I was quite happy with one-foot driving. It did seem very appliance like though - without the glass roof it would have been just plain boring.
It did throw up quite a few warnings - lights and messages - which was somewhat disconcerting. The salesman showing it to us before we drove off couldn't get the a/c to go off )it just wouldn't respong tot the button) so he talked us through it with the fan going flat out blowing out freezing air.
Plan is for the ID3 to be a considerably cheaper stop gap for 6 months until we get back into an interesting ICE early next year. We've gone from i3 > Model 3 P > etron 55 > ID3 over the past 5 years and EV has served us very well, but going forward the benefits are no longer there
I wouldn’t touch a Chinese product (as opposed to a non Chinese product made in China) you have to check all stages of the process to make sure they are not cutting corners
As an example Google lead paint and Hasbro where Hasbro supplied the correct paint but the factory manager sold it and used cheaper leaded paint
Then there is the political issue
As an example Google lead paint and Hasbro where Hasbro supplied the correct paint but the factory manager sold it and used cheaper leaded paint
Then there is the political issue
Sheepshanks said:
I had one as a loaner for a couple of days last month. Was very new - 600 miles on it. Car was lifted by having a full glass roof but they told me the list price of the car was £40K. Used ones a couple of years old can still be £30K - I was expecting high teens.
Never driven an EV before and I was quite happy with one-foot driving. It did seem very appliance like though - without the glass roof it would have been just plain boring.
It did throw up quite a few warnings - lights and messages - which was somewhat disconcerting. The salesman showing it to us before we drove off couldn't get the a/c to go off (it just wouldn't respond to the button) so he talked us through it with the fan going flat out blowing freezing air.
All fair points but just wanted to say they are a sub-£20k car now, not £30k.Never driven an EV before and I was quite happy with one-foot driving. It did seem very appliance like though - without the glass roof it would have been just plain boring.
It did throw up quite a few warnings - lights and messages - which was somewhat disconcerting. The salesman showing it to us before we drove off couldn't get the a/c to go off (it just wouldn't respond to the button) so he talked us through it with the fan going flat out blowing freezing air.
Edited by Sheepshanks on Saturday 29th July 10:04
There are tonnes of low mileage examples available from VW Approved Used for ~£21/22k, but they are all subject to a £2000 contribution, so plenty end up being sub £20k.
They still don't match the Nero, Ioniqs, Zoe etc in terms of value, but I personally think they are better looking and are a nicer drive (RWD, decent dynamics)
bomster said:
I test drove an ID3 a few days ago…
Not really sure where all the negativity comes from for the car.
The negativity comes from the fact that most people consider it looks rather bland from most angles. The software is appalling and you will find that once you live with it a while. I agree simply driving along is fine but looking down at the 90’s Peugeot style interior and having to interface with screens that look like they were designed by Fisher Price does rather let the experience down. Did I mention the steel wheels with plastic trims that many come with? I owned one as a personal purchase by the way so I’m talking from my own experience. Not really sure where all the negativity comes from for the car.
VW wanted to switch to EVs and stumped up a lot of money to do so. Unfortunately, making cheap EVs in Germany isn't as easy as they thought.
Maybe they should have swallowed their German pride and invested in countries with cheaper labour in Seat or Skoda factories. At present the ID3 is, as others before me have stated, just not plush enough to warrant such high list prices.
All this is a shame. VW can't carry on losing market share at the current rate without the German government underwriting their spiralling debts.
Maybe they should have swallowed their German pride and invested in countries with cheaper labour in Seat or Skoda factories. At present the ID3 is, as others before me have stated, just not plush enough to warrant such high list prices.
All this is a shame. VW can't carry on losing market share at the current rate without the German government underwriting their spiralling debts.
I couldn't agree more regarding the list prices vs quality... an ID3 for almost £40k is franky ridiculous... but at sub-£20k for an Approved Used (2 year warranty, 2 year free 'servicing'), even with the fairly pov interior, I honestly think they start to look quite attractive. Also from what I have read the latest software (3.2) is finally good / reliable.
There are still cheaper options, as I listed above. The Nero, Zoe, Ioniq are all cheaper and just as good on paper... but they are all FWD, ride worse, and to my eye aren't as good looking.
Just my two cents, and I'm really not remotely a VAG fanboy, just someone looking to possibly enter the BEV market.
There are still cheaper options, as I listed above. The Nero, Zoe, Ioniq are all cheaper and just as good on paper... but they are all FWD, ride worse, and to my eye aren't as good looking.
Just my two cents, and I'm really not remotely a VAG fanboy, just someone looking to possibly enter the BEV market.
Newc said:
jjones said:
China is doing to the car industry what Japan did to the bike industry. EV has added another a layer of complexity to this which the Chinese manufactures seem to be able to use as an accelerator for their market share increase via price and rapidly improving quality. The British bike industry sneered at the Japanese rivals and look how that ended for them.
Yep.Interestingly the Japanese manufacturers also seem aware of the threat posed by Chinese manufacturers. This from a Car review of the £45k Honda e:Ny1
"As soon as this review hits social media there will be plenty of wild gesticulation among car enthusiasts about how much this costs versus how far it will go for the price.
This is a valid argument if you take away any nuance. Head of Automobiles for Honda UK, Rebecca Adamson, said: ‘While we cannot compete with Chinese manufacturers on price, we have 75 years of engineering experience.’
Honda, in other words, appreciates that the MG ZS EV is cheaper and will go further. But the e:Ny1 is aimed at people looking to test the waters with an EV with a brand they know."
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/honda/e-...
Good luck with that. The Honda seems utterly unremarkable in every way but is £15k more than an equivalent MG. Honda reliability and customer trust though? Well the MG comes with a 7 year warranty versus the Honda's 5. That plus the £15k saving will assuage a lot of fears.
I think all of the legacy car manufacturers are in trouble, not just VW.
"As soon as this review hits social media there will be plenty of wild gesticulation among car enthusiasts about how much this costs versus how far it will go for the price.
This is a valid argument if you take away any nuance. Head of Automobiles for Honda UK, Rebecca Adamson, said: ‘While we cannot compete with Chinese manufacturers on price, we have 75 years of engineering experience.’
Honda, in other words, appreciates that the MG ZS EV is cheaper and will go further. But the e:Ny1 is aimed at people looking to test the waters with an EV with a brand they know."
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/honda/e-...
Good luck with that. The Honda seems utterly unremarkable in every way but is £15k more than an equivalent MG. Honda reliability and customer trust though? Well the MG comes with a 7 year warranty versus the Honda's 5. That plus the £15k saving will assuage a lot of fears.
I think all of the legacy car manufacturers are in trouble, not just VW.
Lil_Red_GTV said:
Interestingly the Japanese manufacturers also seem aware of the threat posed by Chinese manufacturers. This from a Car review of the £45k Honda e:Ny1
I think all of the legacy car manufacturers are in trouble, not just VW.
From the Telegraph's review of the Honda:I think all of the legacy car manufacturers are in trouble, not just VW.
'It's built in Wuhan, China, in a 50:50 joint venture with Chinese car maker, Dongfeng.'
Lil_Red_GTV said:
Good luck with that. The Honda seems utterly unremarkable in every way but is £15k more than an equivalent MG. Honda reliability and customer trust though? Well the MG comes with a 7 year warranty versus the Honda's 5. That plus the £15k saving will assuage a lot of fears.
In my area it's the same dealer who does both!It's a problem for me because as a Honda dealer they were terrible and I've vowed never to darken their door again.
boxedin said:
Lil_Red_GTV said:
Interestingly the Japanese manufacturers also seem aware of the threat posed by Chinese manufacturers. This from a Car review of the £45k Honda e:Ny1
I think all of the legacy car manufacturers are in trouble, not just VW.
From the Telegraph's review of the Honda:I think all of the legacy car manufacturers are in trouble, not just VW.
'It's built in Wuhan, China, in a 50:50 joint venture with Chinese car maker, Dongfeng.'
Fastdruid said:
boxedin said:
Lil_Red_GTV said:
Interestingly the Japanese manufacturers also seem aware of the threat posed by Chinese manufacturers. This from a Car review of the £45k Honda e:Ny1
I think all of the legacy car manufacturers are in trouble, not just VW.
From the Telegraph's review of the Honda:I think all of the legacy car manufacturers are in trouble, not just VW.
'It's built in Wuhan, China, in a 50:50 joint venture with Chinese car maker, Dongfeng.'
But to gain permission to operate there, they typically have to allow some state ownership of the factory (not their brand, just the factory operation), and of course Chinese people work at that factory, including at a senior management level.
Wind forwards ten years and now there is an army of highly trained Chinese workers and managers that can simply go to fully state owned Chinese car factories and easily compete with western car firms.
Somebody didn't think this plan through...
Fastdruid said:
If I'm paying VW/Honda prices rather than Chinese prices I'm expecting it to be built in Germany/Japan or at the very least "domestically". Paying VW/Honda prices and still getting a Chinese car anyway? Why not just get an MG and save 15k?
Because it's possibly a far better car?Polestar build the 2 and 3 in China and they cost between £45k and £95k. Would you suggest an MG would be comparable just because of where it is built?
TheDeuce said:
Fastdruid said:
boxedin said:
Lil_Red_GTV said:
Interestingly the Japanese manufacturers also seem aware of the threat posed by Chinese manufacturers. This from a Car review of the £45k Honda e:Ny1
I think all of the legacy car manufacturers are in trouble, not just VW.
From the Telegraph's review of the Honda:I think all of the legacy car manufacturers are in trouble, not just VW.
'It's built in Wuhan, China, in a 50:50 joint venture with Chinese car maker, Dongfeng.'
But to gain permission to operate there, they typically have to allow some state ownership of the factory (not their brand, just the factory operation), and of course Chinese people work at that factory, including at a senior management level.
Wind forwards ten years and now there is an army of highly trained Chinese workers and managers that can simply go to fully state owned Chinese car factories and easily compete with western car firms.
Somebody didn't think this plan through...
IJWS15 said:
I wouldn’t touch a Chinese product (as opposed to a non Chinese product made in China) you have to check all stages of the process to make sure they are not cutting corners
As an example Google lead paint and Hasbro where Hasbro supplied the correct paint but the factory manager sold it and used cheaper leaded paint
Then there is the political issue
Surely your example is a non-Chinese product made in China where there has been cost cutting in manufacture. Like value engineering (cost cutting) doesn't happen outside of China.As an example Google lead paint and Hasbro where Hasbro supplied the correct paint but the factory manager sold it and used cheaper leaded paint
Then there is the political issue
https://www.ccn.com/tesla-corner-cutting-shouldnt-...
https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/914_gas_...
End of run Rover 75s.
What you are referring to is corruption of a supply chain, similar to Romanian horse meat being used in common branded prepared meals, or donkey meat being the salami on your pizza. None of that was sanctioned by the manufacturer, just some minion along the making money on the side. Maggot Pete sold condemmed chicken to meat traders, which went into name brand meals.
Japan went through the process. Their cars at one time were dog dirt, and it was harming exports. The term "Jap Crap" originated in New Zealand, when the forst Toyota Coronas appeared there. Then the Japanese car companies started putting those little "Ok" stickers on the drivers windows of cars, as proof of an enhanced quality control process;
Then you look at the early days of Hyundai. That the Hyundai Pony sort of looking like a Morris Marina was no coincidence, because Hyundai recruited George Turnbull and some UK engineers. Conditions in the factory were primative.
I had an ID.4 for a month from ONTO and it was ok and would have considered buying one (stupid window switches notwithstanding).
But the 12 month lead time ruled it out for me.
Seems to me that VW's lack of demand may be at least somewhat influenced by the fact you can't actually get hold of one, and so people look elsewhere -I did.
And their answer is to reduce production. OK then.
But the 12 month lead time ruled it out for me.
Seems to me that VW's lack of demand may be at least somewhat influenced by the fact you can't actually get hold of one, and so people look elsewhere -I did.
And their answer is to reduce production. OK then.
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