Official range figures useless - just give us motorway range
Discussion
essayer said:
Battery kWh times 3 for winter, times 4 for summer.
Knock 0.5 off if it’s a brick (Leaf, eTron etc)
Given the amount of 100kW+ capable charging stations and cars, I’m not sure total range is that relevant any more..
Certainly much less of a concern for those who don't need to do long trips too often, however the price of charging on the road and my driving profile means that range is fairly important. I can charge on excess solar at home, as well as cheap overnight tariff for very cheap energy and that offsets some of the risk of the EV depreciation, heightened insurance etc. If I was having to charge frequently on my journeys then, whilst I could care less about the time, the associated cost would quickly swing me back to ICE.Knock 0.5 off if it’s a brick (Leaf, eTron etc)
Given the amount of 100kW+ capable charging stations and cars, I’m not sure total range is that relevant any more..
Of course I don't have the driving profile of the majority of EV owners and so your statement rings true for a lot of lower mileage users.
J1990 said:
Certainly much less of a concern for those who don't need to do long trips too often, however the price of charging on the road and my driving profile means that range is fairly important. I can charge on excess solar at home, as well as cheap overnight tariff for very cheap energy and that offsets some of the risk of the EV depreciation, heightened insurance etc. If I was having to charge frequently on my journeys then, whilst I could care less about the time, the associated cost would quickly swing me back to ICE.
Of course I don't have the driving profile of the majority of EV owners and so your statement rings true for a lot of lower mileage users.
The price of public charging is ridiculous at the moment. Of course I don't have the driving profile of the majority of EV owners and so your statement rings true for a lot of lower mileage users.
Murph7355 said:
The price of public charging is ridiculous at the moment.
Quite so. Charge at home, 7.5 per unit, high speed charger, 85 per unit. Sure, the infrastructure has to be paid for on top of the power, but the punitive pricing seems to be slowing sales,thus slowing recovery of infrastructure costs.Charging your car via 'spare' solar isn't necessarily the most cost effective way
Nomme de Plum said:
I think some cannot see past their entrenched views.
Too true, and the issue with the WLTP and petrol and diesel cars is mentioned here - www.driving.co.uk/news/european-court-calls-for-ca..."Indeed, the WLTP (World harmonised Light duty vehicle Test Procedure) estimates were found to over-estimate petrol car economy by as much as 23.7 per cent, and that of diesel cars by 18.1 per cent."
eldar said:
high speed charger, 85 per unit. Sure, the infrastructure has to be paid for on top of the power, but the punitive pricing seems to be slowing sales,thus slowing recovery of infrastructure costs.
That was something I was pondering recently, as a nearby petrol station was converting its old car wash into a six bay high speed charger plus some jet wash bays.The amount of work involved in the installation seemed to be pretty substantial with a lot of contractors and equipment on site for several weeks, and it did get me thinking about the cost of the installation, how long the equipment would last, and the utilisation needed for achieve a payback even at 85p/kWh.
SpidersWeb said:
eldar said:
high speed charger, 85 per unit. Sure, the infrastructure has to be paid for on top of the power, but the punitive pricing seems to be slowing sales,thus slowing recovery of infrastructure costs.
That was something I was pondering recently, as a nearby petrol station was converting its old car wash into a six bay high speed charger plus some jet wash bays.The amount of work involved in the installation seemed to be pretty substantial with a lot of contractors and equipment on site for several weeks, and it did get me thinking about the cost of the installation, how long the equipment would last, and the utilisation needed for achieve a payback even at 85p/kWh.
And yes, the costs to install these chargers can be considerable and will take many years to break even, even at the current high prices and even if the chargers are popular and heavily used.
Personally, I'm ok with the high costs for the time being, I see it as a means to getting the network of chargers complete and improved, which is now happening at a healthy rate.
I don't see the high prices changing anytime soon. Certainly the government won't pressure the industry to make it more 'affordable' because they need the industry to be motivated install the chargers as fast as possible.
The one thing I think might start to pressure pricing is that several supermarkets are now installing banks of rapid chargers, and they're generally priced lower than service stations etc, in addition to also being a more affordable and useful place to stop in general - we all need to shop sometimes, might as well charge whilst doing so...
I expect by 2030 competition and watchdogs will start to influence pricing and we'll see the prices start to come back down.
SpidersWeb said:
That was something I was pondering recently, as a nearby petrol station was converting its old car wash into a six bay high speed charger plus some jet wash bays.
The amount of work involved in the installation seemed to be pretty substantial with a lot of contractors and equipment on site for several weeks, and it did get me thinking about the cost of the installation, how long the equipment would last, and the utilisation needed for achieve a payback even at 85p/kWh.
Quite a few variables, but remember the 7.5p rate noted is a retail rate too. So how much is wholesale - 4p?The amount of work involved in the installation seemed to be pretty substantial with a lot of contractors and equipment on site for several weeks, and it did get me thinking about the cost of the installation, how long the equipment would last, and the utilisation needed for achieve a payback even at 85p/kWh.
85p means 81p per KWh "profit". Even at 50kWh charging rates ("slow") I think that's around £40 an hour.
I think a charge Point is something like £20k. Supply costs on top which will be substantial, but one off.
It feels more like they're trying to maintain fossil fuel price levels to me, rather than a "cost plus" model.
Murph7355 said:
SpidersWeb said:
That was something I was pondering recently, as a nearby petrol station was converting its old car wash into a six bay high speed charger plus some jet wash bays.
The amount of work involved in the installation seemed to be pretty substantial with a lot of contractors and equipment on site for several weeks, and it did get me thinking about the cost of the installation, how long the equipment would last, and the utilisation needed for achieve a payback even at 85p/kWh.
Quite a few variables, but remember the 7.5p rate noted is a retail rate too. So how much is wholesale - 4p?The amount of work involved in the installation seemed to be pretty substantial with a lot of contractors and equipment on site for several weeks, and it did get me thinking about the cost of the installation, how long the equipment would last, and the utilisation needed for achieve a payback even at 85p/kWh.
85p means 81p per KWh "profit". Even at 50kWh charging rates ("slow") I think that's around £40 an hour.
I think a charge Point is something like £20k. Supply costs on top which will be substantial, but one off.
It feels more like they're trying to maintain fossil fuel price levels to me, rather than a "cost plus" model.
Your wholesale price of electricity guess seems a bit low, but even so the 81p isn't 81p as the commercial supply has VAT at 20% whereas your domestic charging is only 5%, so that is now 67.5p at best.
How long will the charger last before needing to be replaced? A decade? Plus there will be ongoing maintenance and testing costs.
All in all, even with the high 85p unit prices, they seem to be betting on a very high utilisation to turn a profit.
SpidersWeb said:
The WLTP test is for all cars, not just EVs.
Do you really think the "government types" who you say "are the main promoters of EVs" also want to promote the efficiency of petrol and diesel engined cars as those are also tested at 23c when they perform an awful lot better than in more usual temperatures.
I’m guessing most people understand that WLTP is about measuring CO2 emissions in a variety of situations and I think most people also know that it’s mostly important in urban areas. I’m guessing many also know that for EVs the only important metric is range and we seem to have learnt in the thread that urban range is not important. Do you really think the "government types" who you say "are the main promoters of EVs" also want to promote the efficiency of petrol and diesel engined cars as those are also tested at 23c when they perform an awful lot better than in more usual temperatures.
Given that WLTP as designed makes it hard for ICE and easy for EVs (bordering on pointless) you could with a small bit of imagination conclude that it suits everyone (other than the consumer) to leave it as is.
SpidersWeb said:
So £20k for the charge point plus the cost of installation - that's a chunk of change.
Your wholesale price of electricity guess seems a bit low, but even so the 81p isn't 81p as the commercial supply has VAT at 20% whereas your domestic charging is only 5%, so that is now 67.5p at best.
How long will the charger last before needing to be replaced? A decade? Plus there will be ongoing maintenance and testing costs.
All in all, even with the high 85p unit prices, they seem to be betting on a very high utilisation to turn a profit.
And I think its even more complex than that, as not every one pays the 'drive up' rate. There are preferential rates for some manufacturers at some of the charging networks - BMW and BP / Ionity being one. Also, current utilisation seems very low most of the time - usually when I stop at the Shell or BP ones on the A34 only 2 or 3 of the 12 or 14 stations are in use, and sometimes I'm the only one there! And then I'm just there for 10 or 12 minutes, so at best they get £20/25 out of me So I don' think much money is being made in the short term...but the location is everything and at some point it'll come good I am sure Your wholesale price of electricity guess seems a bit low, but even so the 81p isn't 81p as the commercial supply has VAT at 20% whereas your domestic charging is only 5%, so that is now 67.5p at best.
How long will the charger last before needing to be replaced? A decade? Plus there will be ongoing maintenance and testing costs.
All in all, even with the high 85p unit prices, they seem to be betting on a very high utilisation to turn a profit.
SpidersWeb said:
Murph7355 said:
SpidersWeb said:
That was something I was pondering recently, as a nearby petrol station was converting its old car wash into a six bay high speed charger plus some jet wash bays.
The amount of work involved in the installation seemed to be pretty substantial with a lot of contractors and equipment on site for several weeks, and it did get me thinking about the cost of the installation, how long the equipment would last, and the utilisation needed for achieve a payback even at 85p/kWh.
Quite a few variables, but remember the 7.5p rate noted is a retail rate too. So how much is wholesale - 4p?The amount of work involved in the installation seemed to be pretty substantial with a lot of contractors and equipment on site for several weeks, and it did get me thinking about the cost of the installation, how long the equipment would last, and the utilisation needed for achieve a payback even at 85p/kWh.
85p means 81p per KWh "profit". Even at 50kWh charging rates ("slow") I think that's around £40 an hour.
I think a charge Point is something like £20k. Supply costs on top which will be substantial, but one off.
It feels more like they're trying to maintain fossil fuel price levels to me, rather than a "cost plus" model.
Your wholesale price of electricity guess seems a bit low, but even so the 81p isn't 81p as the commercial supply has VAT at 20% whereas your domestic charging is only 5%, so that is now 67.5p at best.
How long will the charger last before needing to be replaced? A decade? Plus there will be ongoing maintenance and testing costs.
All in all, even with the high 85p unit prices, they seem to be betting on a very high utilisation to turn a profit.
The costs of getting a suitable power supply to the right location can involve hundreds of thousands £ basically thrown into the ground, ahead of doing anything so obvious as paying £20k or whatever for a charger.
I don't buy that they're trying to 'maintain fossil fuel prices', several of the charger networks have no history of dealing in fossil fuels - but they do all need to justify the investment of installing the chargers and realistically they aren't going to sign off on spending tens of millions to form a network unless the path is clear for them to recoup that investment in a sensible number of years, hence the relatively high markup on electricity prices for now.
Most EV drivers need to use a public charger so infrequently that they won't give a toss about the cost, they'll just be glad someone's installed a bank of shiny new chargers at the location they need them! I appreciate that's no use for those that can't charge at home and need to use public chargers routinely, but those people don't need to convert to EV anytime soon. I very much expect that by the time anyone does need to convert to EV, probably 2035 onwards, the networks will have recouped their initial investment and competition will have dragged the prices down considerably.
DMZ said:
I’m guessing most people understand that WLTP is about measuring CO2 emissions in a variety of situations
And I would suggest you are completely wrong, and that the only interaction most people have with it when it is quoting a MPG figure for a petrol or diesel car, or a range figure for an EV.SpidersWeb said:
DMZ said:
I’m guessing most people understand that WLTP is about measuring CO2 emissions in a variety of situations
And I would suggest you are completely wrong, and that the only interaction most people have with it when it is quoting a MPG figure for a petrol or diesel car, or a range figure for an EV.The OP is, IMHO, quite correct.
There are lots of people who want to know range on longer journeys, which might be motorways or A-roads.
That's the real question.
Can I get to Bristol without a stop?
Can I get to Taunton and back?
How many stops if I want to go to Manchester?
If you look at the 'computer' of many people's car, you'll see they average about 30mph and that aligns with the standards, but the 90% of their driving that's around town is just taken for granted, the 10% or whatever is what persuades people to buy car X Y or Z.
If people were logical about cars and bought the most cost-effective thing for the majority of thier driving, Porsche, Jaguar and others would have gone out of business ages ago.
There are lots of people who want to know range on longer journeys, which might be motorways or A-roads.
That's the real question.
Can I get to Bristol without a stop?
Can I get to Taunton and back?
How many stops if I want to go to Manchester?
If you look at the 'computer' of many people's car, you'll see they average about 30mph and that aligns with the standards, but the 90% of their driving that's around town is just taken for granted, the 10% or whatever is what persuades people to buy car X Y or Z.
If people were logical about cars and bought the most cost-effective thing for the majority of thier driving, Porsche, Jaguar and others would have gone out of business ages ago.
Just had a quick look and for a 100kw charger seems you'll not get much change out of £35k...... then installation..... assuming 60p margin on the juice, and 50kw each charge would need around 1200 charges to pay fo the kit. (3-4 per day every day for a year) Not including the land or installation or potential increase of supply to the location - this is where the cost lies.
as for WLTP range. Worrying about range is not the issue - as long as you can do 150-160 miles at reasonable motorway speeds, stop and charge quickly - perfect. Quick comfort break, get a coffee and you're set for another 2-3 hours at the wheel, spot on!!
It when that 15-20 min stop drags on for an hour..... that it doesn't work. Even when using higher (100kw+) chargers to guarantee charging at the highest rate the car will take.
This is where peoples concern should be - not range. The faster you can put it in the better. So don't get an ipace.
as for WLTP range. Worrying about range is not the issue - as long as you can do 150-160 miles at reasonable motorway speeds, stop and charge quickly - perfect. Quick comfort break, get a coffee and you're set for another 2-3 hours at the wheel, spot on!!
It when that 15-20 min stop drags on for an hour..... that it doesn't work. Even when using higher (100kw+) chargers to guarantee charging at the highest rate the car will take.
This is where peoples concern should be - not range. The faster you can put it in the better. So don't get an ipace.
killysprint said:
Just had a quick look and for a 100kw charger seems you'll not get much change out of £35k...... then installation..... assuming 60p margin on the juice, and 50kw each charge would need around 1200 charges to pay fo the kit. (3-4 per day every day for a year) Not including the land or installation or potential increase of supply to the location - this is where the cost lies.
as for WLTP range. Worrying about range is not the issue - as long as you can do 150-160 miles at reasonable motorway speeds, stop and charge quickly - perfect. Quick comfort break, get a coffee and you're set for another 2-3 hours at the wheel, spot on!!
It when that 15-20 min stop drags on for an hour..... that it doesn't work. Even when using higher (100kw+) chargers to guarantee charging at the highest rate the car will take.
This is where peoples concern should be - not range. The faster you can put it in the better. So don't get an ipace.
Getting a grid connection doesn't come cheap and assumes adequate capacity within the local substation. If a new cable is required the costs mount up rapidly and for multiple banks of chargers there maybe a reservation fee for power not used as it effectively cannot be sold to another consumer/business. as for WLTP range. Worrying about range is not the issue - as long as you can do 150-160 miles at reasonable motorway speeds, stop and charge quickly - perfect. Quick comfort break, get a coffee and you're set for another 2-3 hours at the wheel, spot on!!
It when that 15-20 min stop drags on for an hour..... that it doesn't work. Even when using higher (100kw+) chargers to guarantee charging at the highest rate the car will take.
This is where peoples concern should be - not range. The faster you can put it in the better. So don't get an ipace.
I tend to agree that speed of charging is more important than range for anyone intending to do regular longer trips.
thecremeegg said:
I might charge mine more out and about if it was a sensible price, but paying 75p/kw is just a complete rip off and so I won't do it. I don't even pay for the charging, my company does and I still don't do it!
Without knowing the cost of not only the installation of a charge point but the total cost including land acquisition, planning where required building control consultants to carry out said and procurement incoming power, arranging tendering etc etc we can't know can we. What would be a reasonable payback period for the provider?Whilst my gut feeling is that it maybe OTT I having procured lots of engineering services stuff including incoming power the costs can easily be in the hundreds of thousands if not a millions where on site transformers are required.
It is disappointing that the government weren't a bit more interventionist to ensure an open book approach to the roll out of the charge network.
Broadly agree with the point in the OP - some additional official data points would be very useful.
You never can really be sure about what you read online/find via your own research. People who own the car already & are sharing their experiences aren't unbiased.
Personally give me miles to empty at a constant 60/70/80mph at 15 degrees C.
You never can really be sure about what you read online/find via your own research. People who own the car already & are sharing their experiences aren't unbiased.
Personally give me miles to empty at a constant 60/70/80mph at 15 degrees C.
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