Will electricity prices start to kill off EV's?
Discussion
ChocolateFrog said:
somouk said:
Just seen Osprey have set their charging price at £1 Kwh, the first to do so I believe and possibly a big indication of what’s to come for EVs.
That's going to be painful for those that rely on them.A large EV will cost over £100 to do at best 300 miles, some will be down at 200 miles.
50p a mile in leccy.
Our etron (about as inefficient as it gets) will do 220 or so and cost £83. 37ppm
That's about as big as EV's get in the UK so well short of the 50ppm you suggest, though still not good compared to 12 months ago obviously.
DonkeyApple said:
Mikehig said:
I've read that blending even small amounts - 10% - of hydrogen into the gas grid could cause problems because many of the turbines in gas power plants can't accept any hydrogen. For those that can, 10% is the upper limit but the units struggle to handle variations so the feed percentage needs to be constant. That conflicts with producing hydrogen during the intermittent and irregular periods when there is excess renewable energy.
As Nat Gas contains some hydrogen I believe that the 10% limit is where most stuff can still work at at that low level the corrosion aspect isn't an issue. The other aspect about intermittent hydrogen production is that you'll be losing a fortune on the infrastructure such as electrolysers not running 24/7.
Spot on about utilisation of electrolysers: it's a major conundrum. Co-locate them with windfarms and they will run only very intermittently - and there's the problem of how to transport the hydrogen. Locate them centrally and we're back with the lack of transmission capacity.
Evanivitch said:
ashenfie said:
Just seams practical to store Hydrogen in a bottles, than super large batteries. Has to be more cost effective and definitely cheaper than hydro.
If by bottle you mean a 80kg carbon fibre tank for just 5kg of hydrogen...Li-ion is currently at 0.5 kWh per litre and that will most likely double over the next 10 or 20 years.
GT9 said:
The volumetric energy density of gaseous hydrogen is about 1 kWh per litre if you include the tank. And that's essentially a forever number.
Li-ion is currently at 0.5 kWh per litre and that will most likely double over the next 10 or 20 years.
With recent EV battery development, mass energy density up to 0.4 kWh/kg is achievable.Li-ion is currently at 0.5 kWh per litre and that will most likely double over the next 10 or 20 years.
Do you have comparable data for gaseous hydrogen please (including tank) ?
bigothunter said:
GT9 said:
The volumetric energy density of gaseous hydrogen is about 1 kWh per litre if you include the tank. And that's essentially a forever number.
Li-ion is currently at 0.5 kWh per litre and that will most likely double over the next 10 or 20 years.
With recent EV battery development, mass energy density up to 0.4 kWh/kg is achievable.Li-ion is currently at 0.5 kWh per litre and that will most likely double over the next 10 or 20 years.
Do you have comparable data for gaseous hydrogen please (including tank) ?
Of course you then need to factor in that a fair chunk of that will be lost to waste heat when converting back to electricity or mechanical power.
GT9 said:
The volumetric energy density of gaseous hydrogen is about 1 kWh per litre if you include the tank. And that's essentially a forever number.
Li-ion is currently at 0.5 kWh per litre and that will most likely double over the next 10 or 20 years.
And then again it might not and we are left with 0.5 kWh. I'd love for these predictions to be true but my crystal ball isn't that good...Li-ion is currently at 0.5 kWh per litre and that will most likely double over the next 10 or 20 years.
GT9 said:
Evanivitch said:
ashenfie said:
Just seams practical to store Hydrogen in a bottles, than super large batteries. Has to be more cost effective and definitely cheaper than hydro.
If by bottle you mean a 80kg carbon fibre tank for just 5kg of hydrogen...Li-ion is currently at 0.5 kWh per litre and that will most likely double over the next 10 or 20 years.
GT9 said:
To be fair, hydrogen is far better on a weigh basis, at nearly 2 kWh/kg.
Of course you then need to factor in that a fair chunk of that will be lost to waste heat when converting back to electricity or mechanical power.
For apples-to-apples, should probably also include the mass of the fuel cell. Of course you then need to factor in that a fair chunk of that will be lost to waste heat when converting back to electricity or mechanical power.
ashenfie said:
Not sure where you come up with that, a 110l bottle for Hydogen can be purchased £125 and is 1120g in weight 4125kw. Thats easy over a 1000 miles per refill.
I wouldn't want to be stood anywhere near your compressed hydrogen bottle whilst it produces 4MW of power for a brief period of time.ashenfie said:
Not sure where you come up with that, a 110l bottle for Hydogen can be purchased £125 and is 1120g in weight 4125kw. Thats easy over a 1000 miles per refill.
Can you link to that, because as far as I can see that buys you something that holds about 1/10 of the pressure required for an automotive application.Ah, it's this one, isn't it?
https://calibration-gases.airproducts.expert/websh...
Yeah, that would be calibration gas for testing gas detectors. It's 2% hydrogen in air, and it's at 69 bar.
Not 100% hydrogen at 700 bar.
https://calibration-gases.airproducts.expert/websh...
Yeah, that would be calibration gas for testing gas detectors. It's 2% hydrogen in air, and it's at 69 bar.
Not 100% hydrogen at 700 bar.
At the new (from next month) higher capped tariff my iPace averages the equivalent of 68mpg (price compared to average for super unleaded or diesel). More like 300mpg if you have access to cheap night rates (eg Octopus EV deals). Not bad for a 400bhp family car. My previous RS6 managed early 20s.
My i3 does the equivalent of 83mpg (compared to price of standard unleaded). And around 350mpg if you have Octopus etc. Once again, not bad for 170bhp.
My i3 does the equivalent of 83mpg (compared to price of standard unleaded). And around 350mpg if you have Octopus etc. Once again, not bad for 170bhp.
ashenfie said:
GT9 said:
Evanivitch said:
ashenfie said:
Just seams practical to store Hydrogen in a bottles, than super large batteries. Has to be more cost effective and definitely cheaper than hydro.
If by bottle you mean a 80kg carbon fibre tank for just 5kg of hydrogen...Li-ion is currently at 0.5 kWh per litre and that will most likely double over the next 10 or 20 years.
otolith said:
Ah, it's this one, isn't it?
https://calibration-gases.airproducts.expert/websh...
Yeah, that would be calibration gas for testing gas detectors. It's 2% hydrogen in air, and it's at 69 bar.
Not 100% hydrogen at 700 bar.
You can get various percentages right up to 100% but it's not GH and as you point out, It's not under enough pressure. https://calibration-gases.airproducts.expert/websh...
Yeah, that would be calibration gas for testing gas detectors. It's 2% hydrogen in air, and it's at 69 bar.
Not 100% hydrogen at 700 bar.
Besides the decimal points in most of those numbers look at bit off.
ashenfie said:
GT9 said:
Evanivitch said:
ashenfie said:
Just seams practical to store Hydrogen in a bottles, than super large batteries. Has to be more cost effective and definitely cheaper than hydro.
If by bottle you mean a 80kg carbon fibre tank for just 5kg of hydrogen...Li-ion is currently at 0.5 kWh per litre and that will most likely double over the next 10 or 20 years.
To help you grasp its a bit better, the practical (i.e .including the tank) volumetric energy density limit of gaseous hydrogen is about one tenth of petrol.
That's using the best available materials known to man at the highest possible pressure you can store it at.
And then you have to convert it back to useable energy, which involves losing half the stored energy to heat.
Which makes it about the same volumetric energy density as a Li-ion battery.
Yes, it is better by weight than a battery, for now...
Discombobulate said:
At the new (from next month) higher capped tariff my iPace averages the equivalent of 68mpg (price compared to average for super unleaded or diesel). More like 300mpg if you have access to cheap night rates (eg Octopus EV deals). Not bad for a 400bhp family car. My previous RS6 managed early 20s.
My i3 does the equivalent of 83mpg (compared to price of standard unleaded). And around 350mpg if you have Octopus etc. Once again, not bad for 170bhp.
I'm not sure why people keep muddying the water with spam posts like these.My i3 does the equivalent of 83mpg (compared to price of standard unleaded). And around 350mpg if you have Octopus etc. Once again, not bad for 170bhp.
It's long established that every EV driver exclusively charges using only the most expensive public charger. Why would anybody even want to charge overnight for 5p/kWh (shortly to become 7.5p/Kwh)? God forbid anybody would become foolish enough to use PV/Battery for free charging.
The tired old argument about nobody ever sets off on a drive and stops in anything under 400 miles appears to have been replaced with this old chestnut regarding charging costs, where, incidentally all diesel vehicles can achieve a real word 80mpg.
FeelingLucky said:
I'm not sure why people keep muddying the water with spam posts like these.
It's long established that every EV driver exclusively charges using only the most expensive public charger. Why would anybody even want to charge overnight for 5p/kWh (shortly to become 7.5p/Kwh)? God forbid anybody would become foolish enough to use PV/Battery for free charging.
The tired old argument about nobody ever sets off on a drive and stops in anything under 400 miles appears to have been replaced with this old chestnut regarding charging costs, where, incidentally all diesel vehicles can achieve a real word 80mpg.
But what about the pensioner who got talked into changing his 75mpg Honda Jazz for £100k Model X, 14 UPVC windows, a sprig of lucky heather and can only charge during Corrie? Do they not have enough to worry about with all the immigrants in rubber dinghies coming to steal their pension?It's long established that every EV driver exclusively charges using only the most expensive public charger. Why would anybody even want to charge overnight for 5p/kWh (shortly to become 7.5p/Kwh)? God forbid anybody would become foolish enough to use PV/Battery for free charging.
The tired old argument about nobody ever sets off on a drive and stops in anything under 400 miles appears to have been replaced with this old chestnut regarding charging costs, where, incidentally all diesel vehicles can achieve a real word 80mpg.
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